Nagual view on Free will

[Guest guest]

Our nagual creates the major themes

in our life. It is up to us to fill

in the details."

 

The subject of free will has come up

recently. It's time

to look at it and some other baby metaphysical concepts such as 'we

create our own reality'.

We have no free will, nor do we

create our own reality.

 

We alone are responsible for our own salvation.

 

But it is time to graduate from baby

metaphysics and realize that we do

not create our reality, nor do we

really have free will. Many on this

board have come to this realization

already, or have sincerely

questioned these new age beliefs.

-----

It is incorrect to

say that all of what happens in

our life happens for a reason. This

is more baby metaphysics. The fact

is that most of the events in an

average man's life occur accidentally.

 

Philosophers would call this a

paradox. But a Toltec sees no

contradiction here. Paradoxes are

for the mental body. When one

begins to 'see', paradoxes fall

away into knowingness.

 

Our nagual aspect is the

unstructured part of ourselves.

It is UNLIMITED. Our destiny and

major themes of our life are set

up by our nagual. Our tonal is our

personality aspect, which consists

of our mental, emotional and

physical bodies, is our structured

aspect.

 

Our personality contains our

POTENTIAL. If we fully align our

tonal to our nagual we have UNLIMITED

POTENTIAL.

 

----

Our tonal

actually consists of a thousand

different I's each contradicting

each other. We have many buffers

in our personality that blind us

to our contradictions.

 

Each of these

I's have different desires,

different wills and depending on

which particular I we are

identified with in the moment,

we will make decisions and take

actions that may be totally

contradictory to another moment

when another one of the I's in

our chaotic market place.

 

This is the average state of the

human. It is a very difficult

place to be in. From this state it

is impossible to sense or to be

aware of our nagual aspect. It

vibrates way too high. The only

way out is to muster up as much

intent as we can to begin to get

some of our thousands of I's to

align up.

---

This is very difficult as it

requires brute honesty with our-

selves, all aspects of our-selves.

 

This can take a lifetime for some.

But until we are able to process

and heal our personality selves

to a degree where we have a

sufficient 'mass' of

subpersonalities in alignment, we

do not have enough personal power

to access our nagual. And true

growth only begins when we are

working directly with our nagual.

 

----

More often than not, which

subpersonality is manifesting

through ourselves is determined by

some thing or event outside of

ourselves. This is not free will.

 

The average man lives by the law

of accident, not the law of destiny.

When we align ourselves to our nagual

we are then able to manifest the

nagual in our lives. We are

aligned to and fulfill our destiny

 

Living naguals are very powerful

as they are in alignment with their

nagual aspect. Their tonal is

aligned to their nagual. In some

paths this state is called self-

realization. The personality self

is fully realized (aligned to) the

higher self.

----

 

* For humans truth is not absolute.

It is relative to our level of

growth. Truth has a purpose for

that particular level of growth.

 

Often the purpose behind the truth

is more important than the truth

itself. Example - the purpose of

instilling the belief/truth that

'we create our own reality' was

to make people aware that they are

responsible for their growth and

their lives(not a savior or God

outside of themselves). A more

accurate truth is that we don't

create our own reality, our destiny

has already been created by our

nagual. But, to realise our destiny

we must align our tonal to our nagual

 

Only we can do this. Our nagual

will not do it for us. Again, the

purpose of this truth is the same

as the first truth - we are

responsible for our growth, no

one else, no other entity outside

of ourself, we are responsible.

 

Whichever 'truth' you believe,

the purpose is the same, only you

are responsible for your growth,

your life. Eventually you will

get to the point where you have

no beliefs/truths. You will not

need them. For you will know your

purpose.

-----

Carlos Castaneda (or Casteneda as

commonly misspelled) first brought

the Toltec path into the mainstream

of 'new age' consciousness as

stories from another world.

 

<http://www.toltecnagual.com/main/series/intro.htm>

 

K

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Satkartar5.

 

I read your long post several times and also visited the Nagual

website.

 

I notice that your post was a quote from the website and assume it

belongs to Don Miguel.

 

I am afraid the paradoxical statements in the post have made our free

will discussion a bit `mitotic'. That of course is beside the point

in view of the divergent views already expressed by vedantins.

 

However, I can't help the following observations:

 

1. I have read Castaneda extensively. In fact, I was his fan in the

1970s and 80s. His thoughts have, therefore, profoundly influenced

my spiritual outlook.

 

2. Sin defined as a transgression against the nagual is quite

vedantic. In Vedanta, it is transgression against one's real nature.

 

3. The importance attached to nagual (teacher) is also similar to

vedanta.

 

4. Aligning the tonal with the nagual [aligning all subpersonalities

(which in their disarray cause mitote) to the nagual] looks akin to

raising the kundalini through tantric sAdhana and the siddhIs gained

thereby.

 

5. The pain the author underwent reminds me of the terrible stories

narrated by kundalini misadventurers and U.G. Krishnamurthy.

 

6. However, before an advaitin can accept what is stated at the

website, the following need to be answered:

 

6.1. Is nagual the Consciousness of advaita? Statements like `our

nagual', `your nagual' do not seem to suggest so. However, at times,

one is compelled to think it cannot be anything other than vedantic

Consciousness.

 

6.2. The other doubt arises from the following statement found in

the "Undoing The World" Section:

 

QUOTE

 

Psychologists say that a baby does not distinguish between itself and

its mother. This is true. The baby has no self concept. It

perceives mother and itself as one. Once the child has a concept of

self as distinct from its mother it never perceives reality the same

way. It no longer perceives reality, it only perceives its concept.

This is why as adults it is so difficult for us to perceive ourselves

as one with everything. We only perceive our concept of self, which

is distinct from mother.

 

UNQUOTE

 

The first part about the original `state' of the baby is

understandable. It, its mother and the world is all one

Consciousness. But, that gives rise to a big problem. How and why

does the mother originate? The mother has to originate somehow for

the rest of the brainwashing (like this is your father, this is a

tree, this is a leaf etc.) to take place. Does Toltec philosophy

take recourse to ideas similar to karma, prArabdAs, adhyAsa etc. in

order to explain the child's subsequent alienation?

 

I would be delighted to read your clarifications.

 

PranAms.

 

Madathil Nair

 

 

advaitin, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote:

[Guest guest]

Namaste Madathil Nair,

 

"Madathil Rajendran Nair" wrote:

> I read your long post several times and also visited the Nagual

> website.

>

> I notice that your post was a quote from the website and assume it

> belongs to Don Miguel.

 

K: in the same thought

>

> I am afraid the paradoxical statements in the post have made our free

> will discussion a bit `mitotic'. That of course is beside the point

> in view of the divergent views already expressed by vedantins.

>

> However, I can't help the following observations:

>

> 1. I have read Castaneda extensively. In fact, I was his fan in the

> 1970s and 80s. His thoughts have, therefore, profoundly influenced

> my spiritual outlook.

>

> 2. Sin defined as a transgression against the nagual is quite

> vedantic. In Vedanta, it is transgression against one's real nature.

>

> 3. The importance attached to nagual (teacher) is also similar to

> vedanta.

>

> 4. Aligning the tonal with the nagual [aligning all subpersonalities

> (which in their disarray cause mitote) to the nagual] looks akin to

> raising the kundalini through tantric sAdhana and the siddhIs gained

> thereby.

 

 

K: I don't see it like that, rather

then dissolve the false egos entities

>

> 5. The pain the author underwent reminds me of the terrible stories

> narrated by kundalini misadventurers and U.G. Krishnamurthy.

 

 

K: yes, Kundalini is an energy

phenomenon and it can hurt if the

character is NOT lined up with

'advancement' [also can lead to

missuse sidhis]

>

> 6. However, before an advaitin can accept what is stated at the

> website, the following need to be answered:

>

> 6.1. Is nagual the Consciousness of advaita? Statements like `our

> nagual', `your nagual' do not seem to suggest so. However, at times,

> one is compelled to think it cannot be anything other than vedantic

> Consciousness.

 

 

 

K: you are right, but I am just now

studying the Nagual, but their view

on Free will seemed true for me

>

> 6.2. The other doubt arises from the following statement found in

> the "Undoing The World" Section:

>

> QUOTE

>

> Psychologists say that a baby does not distinguish between itself and

> its mother. This is true. The baby has no self concept. It

> perceives mother and itself as one. Once the child has a concept of

> self as distinct from its mother it never perceives reality the same

> way. It no longer perceives reality, it only perceives its concept.

> This is why as adults it is so difficult for us to perceive ourselves

> as one with everything. We only perceive our concept of self, which

> is distinct from mother.

>

> UNQUOTE

 

 

 

K:" yes, the *entities* the myriads

of egos are developed to function

in THIS WORLD, after the infant year

and it is good thing later to

integrate them

 

I do belive that some egos should be

refined and YOKED: RIDDEN that is

what they are for

 

>

> The first part about the original `state' of the baby is

> understandable. It, its mother and the world is all one

> Consciousness. But, that gives rise to a big problem. How and why

> does the mother originate? The mother has to originate somehow for

> the rest of the brainwashing (like this is your father, this is a

> tree, this is a leaf etc.) to take place. Does Toltec philosophy

> take recourse to ideas similar to karma, prArabdAs, adhyAsa etc. in

 

 

 

K I'll, have to look into this further

 

> order to explain the child's subsequent alienation?

 

 

thank you for sharing

 

awreness-love, Karta

>

> I would be delighted to read your clarifications.

>

> PranAms.

>

> Madathil Nair