Fate and Free Willn

[Guest guest]

--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy wrote:

>

> 1. Fate and free-will is not a topic that came out of vedic

> philosophical thinking. I think it is more an outgrowth of

> western rather than easern thinking. The exact sanskrit

> equivalents of the two words are not really well-known.

> shri Madathil Nair-ji brought attention to this matter

> and shri sunder-ji supplied the probable sanskrit equivalents

> to these words.

>

 

Murthy gaaru - nice to hear from you.

 

There are appropriate terms for both - fate is praarabda and free-will

is the purushaartha. Each with clear cut meaning in Vedanta but not in

the sense that is used by Dennis and Benjamin.

 

> 2. The meaning of these words in the context of my writing

> is as follows: Free-will means the jIvA has a choice of action

> or much more important, *thinks* he has a choice of action

> (of doing, not doing, or doing otherwise). Fate means the

> action to be done by the jIvA is already determined (pre-ordained).

 

In my understanding - what I have is fate and what I do with what I have

is free-will. In that sense both have roles but not in the sense it has

been argued as one against the other.

>

> 3. sanskrit equivalents of these words. shri sunder-ji suggested

> free-will as svayam-kartr^itvam and for fate as bhAgyam. With

> respect, I would call fate as adr^iShTam and not bhAgyam.

> Fate and adr^iShTam do not involve a personal God (saguna brahman),

> whereas bhAgyam includes personal God (karmaphalapradA) distributing

> karmaphala.

 

kartRitva bhaava is free-will and swayam is already implied since

bhaava is centered on jiiva. adR^ishaTam is praaradbdam alright since it

is result of all prior actions but that may and may not be dRishTam for

the one facing it.

> 4. Fate and free-will both contradict the theory of karma.

 

Not really. In fact they support it if understood correctly in the

context that it has been defined in Vedanta.

> The theory of karma says that the jIvA is the essence of the

> karmaphala of his previous births and his actions/thoughts

> are decided according to the karmaphala.

 

Karmaphala is praarabda which is truly fate - As swami Chinmayanandaji

says - what I have is praarabda (result of all my previous actions that

I could see or not see) and what I do with what I have is purushaartha.

> jIvA can think he has the free-will, but he does not have

> the free-will in the free-est sense. The karmaphala of that

> jIvA dictates the type of action he undertakes.

>

No. karmaphala dictates the environment he is in. He decides what to do

in a given situation. Given situation is the result of all karma phala

or praarabda. What is going to do in that given situation is free-will.

It will dictate his future fate - and his future action will then become

his free will in the next situation.

> 5. Free-will and bhagavat-kr^ipa (divine grace) [i would rather

> discuss bhagavatkr^ipa rather than fate because fate, in my view,

> does not have a status in the uttaramImAMsa terminology], are

> both in the realm of vyavahArika. shri Sadananda garu expressed

> forcefully that there is free-will, but there is no fate.

> What is his view on bhagavatkr^ipa? Surely, there is divine grace,

> as I understand. I am sure he agrees with that.

 

No. My argument is not fate vs free-will. The sum total result of all

previous actions is what you call karma phala is the fateful situation

that one is in. Jiiva feels that he has to act in that situation - to

do, not to do and to do another way - The next situation he is going to

be in karmaphalas of all previous action modified by the karma phala of

the present action. The account is clear. Lord's grace comes in shaping

the result of jiiva-s free-will action or just say jiiva's action.

> 6. The model for human spiritual growth which makes sense to

> me is as follows, in three stages [This model, as all other

> models are, is in vyavahArika]

> stage 1: People who think there is free-will for a human.

> In this stage, human is responsible for all his achievements,

> for all his failures. The role of the divine is not there.

> stage 2: There is free-will for the human. But at the same

> time, the human seeks occasional divine help in supplementing

> the human free-will in achieving things. The success or failure

> depends on both human action out of free-will and divine help

> or non-help.

 

Divine help is there whether one seeks or not. But in seeking the

divine help, Jiiva understands the role of Iswara in framing the result.

In that prayer, he actually reframes his frame of mind to be more

conducive to make the action more efficient. samoham sarva bhuuteshu -

says the Lord - I am equal for all. No favoritism for those who pray and

no hatred for those who curse or who ignore. But those who pray only tap

the source of energy that is available abundantly for everybody for

asking. The divine grace comes into picture impartially in framing the

result of action since He is the author of all the Laws. He won't bend

the laws just because jiiva prays. But One who prays can tap subtler

laws that operate and to maximize their effect to his advantage. In that

sense prayer helps.

> stage 3: The role of the human free-will gradually diminishes

> here. The human sees things happening (even his actions) out

> of divine-play. The human sees himself as a stage actor in a

> drama conducted by the divine.

 

This is yoga in action - or attitude in action that Krishna advocates

-to shift the attention for accountability from Jiiva. But karma yoga

will be there as long as the notion that I am jiiva is there.

>

> The spiritual growth goes from stage 1 to stage 3, all in

> vyavahArika.

> shri Sadananda garu has put forward arguments for free-will

> in vyavahArika with the absence of free-will in paramArtha.

> But, is the "boundary" between vyavahAra and paramArtha so

> sharp as to go from full belief in free-will to entirely no

> free-will at all? VyavahArika is amenable for a gradual

> fading out of the free-will as the belief and faith in

> divine-grace grows, so that when the jIva trasforms to

> jivanmukta, he sees only God everywhere and not the jIvA.

 

There is a growth from aarthi to arthaarthi to gij~naasu but the final

state is j~naani Until one realizes that I am that Brahman, I am this

jiiva notion will remain and as long as I am this jiiva notion is there

karTRitva bhaava is there - one can slowly replace with the attitude

that I am doing for the sake of the Lord like ambassador - In that

attitude the even though kartRitva bhaava is there and the result are

localized but the jiiva has the notion of prasaada buddhi or it is

coming from the Lord - that attitude will make him from bondage of that

action. His mind becomes non-reactive and in the process it becomes

ready to receive knowledge.

 

 

I hope I am clear.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

> I would be grateful for comments/clarifications.

>

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> -

>

>

>

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

namaste shri Sadananda garu,

 

A bit of a preamble before I respond to some of the points you

brought forth. Fate and free-will discussion is in vyavahAra.

It is a model only of our attempt to understand what is happening

in vyavahArika. I believe this discussion may be a bit unnecessary

because, in my view, this would not really help in our "seeing"

paramArtha. [Dennis-ji seems to object my using the word "seeing"

in these contexts. I think it is the right word - I am using it

for the sanskrit word "pashyanti" i.e. seeing through the inner

eye. More on this in my response to Dennis-ji.]

The discussion seems to be entrenched because the staring points

are not the same for everyone and the understanding of what is

meant by freewill and fate seem to be different. When I said

this is not a topic from vedAnta, I like to expand on that saying, in

vedAnta, fate and freewill (whatever their meaning are) are not

seen as the two extremes of a wide-spectrum and is not a either/or

proposition.

 

 

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, kuntimaddi sadananda wrote:

>

> Murthy gaaru - nice to hear from you.

>

> There are appropriate terms for both - fate is praarabda and free-will

> is the purushaartha. Each with clear cut meaning in Vedanta but not in

> the sense that is used by Dennis and Benjamin.

>

>

 

With respect, I do not agree with the translation

english-sanskrit-english. I would say, supported by the

M-W dictionary,

 

fate is vidhi, adhriShTam. PrArabdha can also be used for it,

but adriShTa and prArabdham have different connotations as

per my understanding.

 

Much more important is the translation for free-will. Free-will

is swatchhanda (swetcha) [M-W dictionary's translation].

PuruShArtha is human objective and is not really free-will, as

I understand.

 

Keeping in mind that we are looking at models only in the

vyavahArika, models consistent with the data, puruShArtha is

there, there is no doubt about it. PuruShArtha is dharma, artha,

kAma, moksha, nothing else. Free-will is the ability or

willingness to act, not to act or act in a different way. How

*free* is this free-will? We amy *feel* that we have free-will

but do we really have that much latitude in our free-will? As

an example, do we have freedom to commit a serious crime?

I am not thinking of Government and law and order restraints.

But as a human, with certain senses of values already built in

through our past samskArA-s, we are forced (by God) to follow

a certain route. We amy think we have free-will to act in

whichever way we want. The fork which we think we see in our

route is no fork at all. We may have freedom to take a tiny

diversion but, there can be no major turning.

 

>

> kartRitva bhaava is free-will and swayam is already implied since

> bhaava is centered on jiiva. adR^ishaTam is praaradbdam alright since it

> is result of all prior actions but that may and may not be dRishTam for

> the one facing it.

>

> > 4. Fate and free-will both contradict the theory of karma.

>

> Not really. In fact they support it if understood correctly in the

> context that it has been defined in Vedanta.

>

 

Earlier you said, puruShArtha is free-will. Kartr^itvabhAva is

I am the doer. But does it say anything about the freedom to act?

 

The essence of all the karmA-s of our previous lives is karmaphala.

Ishwara, the karmaphalaprada, distributes karmaphala without any

bias and that karmaphala dictates how we act. We may *think* we

have lot of freedom to act.

 

I fully agree with rest of what you have said. Basically, the

slight difference in our perception comes to: do we really see

a fork in our route or is it an imagined fork?

> [...]

>

>

> I hope I am clear.

>

> Hari OM!

> Sadananda

>

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

--- Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy wrote:

\ The essence of all the karmA-s of our previous lives is karmaphala.

> Ishwara, the karmaphalaprada, distributes karmaphala without any

> bias and that karmaphala dictates how we act. We may *think* we

> have lot of freedom to act.

>

 

Murthy gaaru

 

Here is my understanding - it may be restating again what I have said

before. Karmaphala does not dictate how we act. It dictates the

environment we are in at the time of action - that includes the problem

we are facing and the surrounding circumstances as well as the tools

that we have acquired so far to face the problem. The course of action

- the freedom to choose to act is given for the human - he is not

pre-programmed to act in a particular way unlike animals - that is the

reason we have an ethics to dictate what should be proper means to

achieve the end we want. For us the end does not justify the means.

Ethics as well as religion all exist to guide the human to channel his

means to arrive at the right end. Remember Swami Chinmayanandaji's

example of log floating along the river - that will be if we don’t have

free-will tied to it. Log with the motor is what a human being is - he

can steer against current - that is what free-will is. I mentioned

purushaartha since that is evolution of the free-will. Once I have free

will - ethics (dharma) comes into picture and final goal (moksha ) also

comes into picture. artha essentially means one adopts to overcome

sense of insecurity and kaama is essentially to overcome the sense of

inadequacy. These are just classification of the human pursuits since

both end and goal get tied in since there is sense of 'free-will'.

 

Whether he has little free-will or lot of free-will - I do not think the

degree of free-will is the question here. Whether we really have it or

we think we have it - is also not the question. From absolute point -

the discussion is mute. From relative point or jiiva's point the

'feeling' or bhaava is engrained deeply - I am a doer and I am an

enjoyer - are all notions due to adhyaasa and that because of small

motor (intellect to think) that has been provided also makes us feel

that we have choices. Intellect makes human different from the rest of

animal kingdom - if he uses it.

 

Anyway I have repeated many times already that kartRitvabhaava and

bhoktRitvabhaava are although notional, due to adhyaasa, is recognized

as real and that makes jiiva as a jiiva bound to karma to janma. That is

my understanding of Vedanta. By the by I don’t consider this is a mute

discussion since it is rhe essence of Vedanta needed to acquire the four

fold qualifications- sadhana chatushhTayam - since there is an

accountability for one's action and therefore saadhana -Because of this

only Mundaka advises jiiva - 'pariiksha lookan karma chitaan brahmano

...." to approach appropriate teacher to gain the knowledge- gaining

which he recognizes that all these concepts are notional and not real.

The jiiva himself is transcended along with these notions. Hence as long

as jiiva is there the notional free-will is as real as the jiiva.

 

I can keep repeating the same until my free-will runs out!

 

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

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