Jnana and Bhakti

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "svahauk" <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> Namaste Sri Gummuluru Murthy,

> I'm glad to see that you have mentioned Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai

>

> Baba. Before me I have a postcard of His Feet with words which

>

> I typed on the back of it from one of His discourses.

 

Namaste,

 

http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/shree_sai_baba.htm

 

 

ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Dear Divine Souls,

 

http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/

 

http://www.saiavatar.de/download/In_Defence_of_SSSB.doc

 

Asathomaa Sadgamayaa

Thamasomaa Jyothirgamayaa

Mrithyormaa Amrithangamayaa

 

Sai Baba is PURE LOVE and nothing else. Sai hates none. None hate Sai.

 

Love and Regards,

Pardha Saradhi

 

 

advaitin, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery> wrote:

> advaitin, "svahauk" <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> > Namaste Sri Gummuluru Murthy,

> > I'm glad to see that you have mentioned Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai

> >

> > Baba. Before me I have a postcard of His Feet with words which

> >

> > I typed on the back of it from one of His discourses.

>

> Namaste,

>

> http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/shree_sai_baba.htm

>

>

> ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

 

Sri Gummuluru Murthy: You are right to say that we should

stick only to Advaita theory on this list. I got sidetracked on

Sathya Sai Baba and concurred with Tony only because I have examined

the voluminous evidence on the web. I fully realize how false

allegations can hurt innocent people. However, I also believe that

any fair and intelligent person who studies what is out there will

decide that the sheer volume of credible evidence is deeply

disturbing if not conclusive. Those who are devoted to him at least

have the moral responsibility to examine it, especially since

children are at stake. We should not be disrespectful with rival

religious theories, but as a citizen the religious leader must be as

fully under the law as anyone else. Popularity or connections with

powerful politicians should never serve as a screen. This is one

American principle that I fully agree with, although I think that we

are also losing it due to the power of money and influence over the

political and legal process. Putting 'great men' on a pedestal only

enhances this danger. Respect and devotion should be combined with

impartial and vigilant scrutiny, especially on the part of the more

intelligent and educated members of the community, such as you and

me. But you are right, it should not be done on this list.

 

And in my opinion, the topic IS related to bhakti, only

perhaps we should not have mentioned any specific names. I have seen

too many cases in the press of gullible people being led astray by

devotion to false spiritual leaders of all religions. This is a very

real and tragic (and somewhat amazing) phenomenon, and we cannot hide

our heads in the sands. The connection with bhakti is that blind

devotion can work tragic wonders in causing devotees to misinterpret

what they see, or to fail to see what they should see in the first

place.

 

We all have a responsibility to use our intellect as well as

our heart. The danger of the jnana is that the intellect may triumph

over the heart. The danger of the bhakti is that the heart may

triumph over the intellect. I believe that one of the great

strengths of the Upanishads is that intuition, intellect, and heart

are all combined in a harmonious and balanced whole.

 

 

 

Sri Michael: I totally agree with you about the wisdom of

the heart. Your quotation from Pascal has long been one of my

favorites, and it contains a very deep wisdom. I also love the

Romantic English poets such as Wordsworth and Coleridge, as well as

the American Transcendentalists, such as Emerson, Thoreau, Emily

Dickinson, etc. I believe that the pure and illuminated heart can

provide deep intuitions into reality that the mere intellect is

impotent to attain.

 

However, my point regarding *some* bhaktis is that not

everything that comes from the heart is pure and wise. There are

different levels in the heart, and the heart may become

contaminated, often by the ego/intellect complex. The bhakti must

still ask himself (or herself), 'What is my motivation?' Is he (or

she) trying to regress back into childhood and abdicate all moral

responsibility to someone else? As adults, we are not permitted to

do that. As the Indians would say, it is against Dharma. Is a weak

and frightened person looking for psychological protection and

comfort? This person must still think carefully and keep his eyes

open, or he may be taken advantage of. That is the way this world

works, unfortunately.

 

That is my only point. Of course deep wisdom can come from

the heart. But not all that comes from the heart is deep wisdom.

 

By the way, there is another subtlety. What do Ramana,

Shankara, Yagnavalkya, Pascal, Coleridge, etc. etc. all have in

common? They were very intelligent and cultured people. Only they

did not allow their intellect to triumph over their heart. In that

sense, you are absolutely correct. Fools with overflowing and

uncontrolled emotions do not reach enlightenment. They are much more

likely to encounter tragedy.

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Hello Benjamin,

Your repeating of the allegations is an offensive

rhetorical device contrary to the request of the

moderator of this discussion Sri Murthy. There are

many teachers out there about whom allegations have

been made, are we to refrain from making reference to

them because we may stray into a field where the wild

hobby horse roams? No the wiser course is to restrict

observation to the actual content of what they have

said. We may be sure that if they are adharmic this

will manifest eventually in their words. At the end

of the day they always explode due to their own inner

contradictions.

 

You've missed the point I was making about the Heart.

It is beyond the mere opposition of intellect and

emotion which is in any case a false one. Advaita is

especially well placed to grasp this because

intellect, body, mind and senses are unified in the

Jiva. Body and Mind are not opposed as they are in

the Rationalist systems of European thought

(Descartes, Berkeley, Hume, Kant etc.) Poetry is

possible because this is false - Coleridge's idea.

 

If you don't get that then your idea of bhakti must

remain on the superficial level. People are devotees

for all sorts of reasons. As with any sadhana

practice makes perfect.

 

Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

>

> "The Heart has its reasons that the head does not understand"

(Pascal)

> Coleridge said "Deep thinking is deep feeling".

 

Namaste,

 

Not surprisingly, the aids and obstacles to the nurture of

bhakti or jnana are almost identical, as is the goal.

 

The best aid is the constancy of reflection, and the worst

obstacle is digression from it (duHsanga - the opposite of satsanga).

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Hello Michael,

>Your repeating of the allegations is an offensive

>rhetorical device contrary to the request of the

>moderator of this discussion Sri Murthy. There are

>many teachers out there about whom allegations have

>been made, are we to refrain from making reference to

>them because we may stray into a field where the wild

>hobby horse roams? No the wiser course is to restrict

>observation to the actual content of what they have

>said. We may be sure that if they are adharmic this

>will manifest eventually in their words. At the end

>of the day they always explode due to their own inner

>contradictions.

 

 

Well, one thing is clear: The topic of Sai Baba is highly

contentious! I have heard privately from other devotees as well.

OK, enough of it. All I said was that there exists a distressingly

large amount of 'credible evidence'. The words 'credible evidence'

are of course my opinion, but it is my sincere and hopefully

intelligent opinion. I was careful to say that it is 'not

conclusive' but only 'deeply disturbing'. Furthermore, any

intelligent person knows that credible evidence alone does not prove

anything. It must then be carefully analyzed and weighed, preferably

by the proper authorities. Has this been done? I confess that I do

not know. However, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent

person, and I remain disturbed by what I have read. It is all a

question of impressions and probabilities, but once the probability

thermometer rises to a certain level, I feel disturbed.

 

But you are missing the man point. I was careful to shift the topic

to the important point: Can devotion to a false guru lead a devotee

into trouble? If this is not an appropriate question related to the

topic of bhakti, then what is? Why don't you address this more

general and important question? Do you doubt that many gullible

people have suffered at the hands of wolves in sheep's clothing? And

is not the emotion of misguided bhakti sometimes responsible? Any

sensible person knows that this is true and that it happens. So why

not provide some intelligent discussion about this, instead of

getting irate at my suggestion that you examine certain reports, for

whatever they are worth. This is like the Muslim countries that ban

all books critical of Islam.

 

Well, indeed, you did provide one relevant piece of advice. You said

that any 'adharmic' behavior will eventually manifest in their words.

Now this IS an interesting and constructive suggestion, and it is

one that I totally disagree with. One thing that has become quite

clear to me is that demonic spiritual leaders can utter honeyed

words, say all the right things, and display remarkable eloquence!

Please think about that ... and do some serious research to see if I

am not right.

 

By the way, I did receive an email from a devotee of Sai Baba who

seems like a wonderful young person. Since my suspicions remain, I

feel genuine and intense emotional pain at this situation. All the

more reason for responsible people to discuss the false spiritual

leader phenomenon, although in a different forum. However, to this

sincere devotee I say this. I sincerely hope that my suspicions turn

out to be false. But in your case, what matters is that you have

clearly benefited spiritually from your association with his

organization. Without a doubt Sai Baba says all the right things, as

I pointed out myself earlier. Also his organization is responsible

for many good works. Just as the Catholic Church was responsible for

crusades and forcible conversions, it is also the case that that very

same church provided much good to society and helped many good people

develop faith in God. Life is full of complexities and ambiguities

and we must be mature enough to realize this.

 

 

>You've missed the point I was making about the Heart.

>It is beyond the mere opposition of intellect and

>emotion which is in any case a false one. Advaita is

>especially well placed to grasp this because

>intellect, body, mind and senses are unified in the

>Jiva. Body and Mind are not opposed as they are in

>the Rationalist systems of European thought

>(Descartes, Berkeley, Hume, Kant etc.) Poetry is

>possible because this is false - Coleridge's idea.

 

You miss my point. I never mentioned any fundamental opposition

between intellect and emotion. Instead I spoke of balancing the two,

so that they could perform their proper function in harmonious,

complementary and symbiotic fashion. I simply said that one should

not dominate the other. Furthermore, I explicitly agreed with you

that the heart has a deep wisdom of its own, just as Pascal said.

Now this is a very intriguing, beautiful and non-trivial notion ...

one well worth exploring. So why do you not realize that I am

agreeing with you and explore the notion further, rather than reading

a false disagreement into what I said.

 

 

>If you don't get that then your idea of bhakti must

>remain on the superficial level. People are devotees

>for all sorts of reasons. As with any sadhana

>practice makes perfect.

 

Again, you're 'barking up the wrong tree'. Why waste that precious energy?

 

 

Warmest wishes

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

FYI

 

"The heart has its reason that reason does not know."

 

 

 

The above is the classic translation of the Pascal sentence, and it is

beautiful.

 

Regards,

 

Min

 

 

Sunder Hattangadi [sunderh]

Saturday, May 10, 2003 10:19 AMc

advaitin

Re: Jnana and Bhakti

 

advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

>

> "The Heart has its reasons that the head does not understand"

(Pascal)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Mike.

 

You made me fall in love with you.

 

I am an enthusiast. But, I don't have anything left to say. You

said it all.

 

Last night, I knew I was falling asleep. I wanted to wake up,

struggled, and failed. Could be motor-paralysis as they,

the 'explainers' out there, call it. Couldn't raise my head out of

the slumberous surge and, as I drowned, I called out to Her for

help. She took care and I awoke and talked to my wife who was still

moving around keeping the house tidy.

 

This morning I woke up again just to realize that I hadn't woken up

last night and talked to my wife. Mike, am I 'really' awake and

writing you this having read your wondrous post? When I lighted the

lamp and showed incense to Her this morning, I asked Her: "Am I

awake or dreaming?". She did only smile - the smile that lights up

innumerable daffodilian worlds here, there and everywhere. What

does it matter in which world I am and which river bank I am walking

on as long as Her grandeur flowers my unending paths.

 

As I reclined last afternoon, there was a Malayalam movie on the TV -

the story of a sculptor who was ordered to sculpt the idol of the

Devi for a new temple. He smashed the cast of the idol and there was

her glittering face. The sculptor couldn't believe his eyes that he

had created that beautiful face. He broke down and wept calling out

to Her. I also wept with him because I knew that She was there

especially for me on an otherwise eventless afternoon.

 

I am passing by my house on an official errand. I stop and go

inisde. There the lamp I had lit early in the morning is just going

off. There is only a flicker left. It can disappear in a

microsecond. I scramble to pour oil in the lamp and, lo, there the

flicker grows into a golden flame. I look at Her and She smiles Her

naughty smile: You have made it boy. This doesn't happen once but

repeats with a regularity that goes beyond reason. She has a knack

of making Her presence felt everywhere. Only those who can 'see'

really discern.

 

Is this bhakti? Then who wants jnAna? Am I foolish? Then, who

wants to be wise. Am I out of place on this List? Then, who wants

its profound ponderings?

 

Sorry Advaitins, I can't help this indulgence. Our topic is bhakti.

I am just trying to capture the sweetness of it all with Mike.

Writing from Kuwait, I have every reason to smile. She has just made

peanuts of a much dreaded war. As I wrote to a friend of mine this

morning: Wherever there are poisonous snakes, enemies, evil demons,

raging fires and even in the middle of oceans - there She stands and

protects the world. (DevI MAhAtmyam - 11th Chapter). Only a bhakta

can know this reasonless sweetness. If sweetness there is, why

demand the salt of reason?

 

PranAms.

 

Madathil Nair

________________________

 

In advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

 

This would line up with the concept of 'bhava' which Ramakrishna

embodied from time to time. It is a profound topic and if there are

other enthusiasts (en theos - the god within) out there I would love

to hear their views on this sublime subject.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Min" <min@n...> wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> FYI

>

> "The heart has its reason that reason does not know."

>

>

>

> The above is the classic translation of the Pascal sentence, and it is

> beautiful.

>

> Regards,

>

> Min

>

>

> Sunder Hattangadi [sunderh]

> Saturday, May 10, 2003 10:19 AMc

> advaitin

> Re: Jnana and Bhakti

>

> advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> >

> > "The Heart has its reasons that the head does not understand"

> (Pascal)

 

 

 

Hello Min,

Thanks for that POI. I was going on my memory - le coeur a ses raisons que la

raison ne connait point.

 

Slightly further on from that Pascal says - "I say it is natural for the heart

to love the universal being or itself <<the ego>>, according to its allegiance,

and it hardens itself against either as it chooses."

 

Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "pardhu_groups" <pardhu_groups>

wrote:

> Dear Divine Souls,

>

> http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/

>

> http://www.saiavatar.de/download/In_Defence_of_SSSB.doc

>

> Asathomaa Sadgamayaa

> Thamasomaa Jyothirgamayaa

> Mrithyormaa Amrithangamayaa

>

> Sai Baba is PURE LOVE and nothing else. Sai hates none. None hate

Sai.

>

> Love and Regards,

> Pardha Saradhi

>

>

> advaitin, "Tony O'Clery" <aoclery>

wrote:

> > advaitin, "svahauk" <ombhurbhuva@e...>

wrote:

> > > Namaste Sri Gummuluru Murthy,

> > > I'm glad to see that you have mentioned Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai

> > >

> > > Baba. Before me I have a postcard of His Feet with words which

> > >

> > > I typed on the back of it from one of His discourses.

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > http://www.stelling.nl/simpos/shree_sai_baba.htm

> >

> >

> > ONS....Tony.

 

Namaste,

 

Can we now cease to talk about Raju ,aka sai baba.( There is only one

sai baba and that was Shirdi). I was an officer of that organisation

for some years and a devotee for some fifteen years and have a lot of

experience and information. This will be my last response on Raju

please may you also stop touting your guru.

http://www.spaceports.com/~saiinfo/

 

Om Namah Sivaya......Tony O'Clery.

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

 

Tony: If it is permissible to say so in this group, I do

share your devotion for Sai Baba of Shirdi. I have read about him

and instinctively love him and have faith in him, as I love

Ramakrishna, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Yogananda, Aurobindo, Vivekananda,

Sivananda, Baba Prahlad, Satchidananda, Sri Sri Ravi Sankar, Ammachi,

Anandamayi Ma, Sarada Devi, and many others ...

 

What is the point of this seemingly gratuitous comment?

Well, I am just trying to add a note of positivity to the somewhat

negative tone taken lately regarding gurus and bhaktis. These are

examples of gurus that I have encountered in books or on the web who

seem fully authentic to me, based on my instincts. There are of

course many others. One could safely surrender oneself to 'blind

devotion' to any of these, even if they were living, but I still

prefer 'wise and aware' devotion!

 

 

Sri Jay: You made some good points in your last reply in the

thread: 'Bhakti article critical of Advaita'. I am replying here so

as to see my name less often on the list, thus reducing any

temptations to my ego! :-)

 

One question: Since you are so energetic about engaging this

list, and since you deny belonging to a 'dualistic' or 'theistic'

school, then please tell us to which school you do belong? Does it

have a name? Better yet, does it have a well-organized and

well-written website, where I could examine its ideas in a methodical

way?

 

Now, as for your definitions of monism, dualism, etc.

 

Perhaps this is splitting hairs, but I wouldn't say that in

'monism' the *cause* of the world is reduced to a single principle.

I would say that Reality itself is reduced to a single principle,

namely, Brahman or Consciousness. The use of the word 'cause',

though not incorrect, suggests a distinction between 'cause' and

'effect', hence an implicit dualism which I cannot accept.

 

Your view that maya and Brahman are two fundamental

'entities' in Advaita is understandable from the point of view of

common sense but is quite contrary to what the Advaitins themselves

say. So rather than saying that this is what the Advaitins say, you

should ask the Advaitins to clarify what seems obscure to you. Their

answer would be something like: Maya does not really exist but is

rather the lack of true existence. Ignorance is not a real thing as

Brahman is but is rather the lack of the realization of Brahman.

 

Now of course you will immediately retort, 'How can Brahman

not know Brahman?' I admit that this is a difficult point in

Advaita, but it does not lead me to abandon it. There are to me so

many compelling reasons for believing that only Consciousness exists

and that it is my inmost nature that I do not lose heart because of

some logical difficulties. Actually, this does not really

contradict logic, since all that is being said is that darkness does

not know light. You might ask how the light can ever become

darkness, and I have my own pet theory. The light allows the

illusion of darkness to temporarily appear in order to create the

illusion of separate identities so that the joy of the light can be

multiplied in an illusory but phenomenologically effective way. I

have discussed this before on this list and on my website, but it is

only my pet theory and is not part of any official Advaita that I

know of.

 

Finally, your contention that you are only studying the true

scriptures and are non-sectarian won't work. All of the mighty gurus

of the Astika tradition have claimed that theirs is the 'true'

interpretation of the scriptures. Do you think you are the

'super-Einstein' who will settle this once and for all? I find it

highly improbable, but I am sure that you will benefit spiritually by

giving it your best shot, all the while remaining in awe before the

mystery of the cosmos and of the unknown.

 

Om!

Benjamin