Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Namaste Rajeet-Ji. You have a point there. Bhagwan's statement is a reported quote. Probably, it is an English translation of His advice originally reported in Tamil. So, let us see if we can get rid of the seeming ambiguity in it. As I understand and as you rightly pointed out, the mind comes back with a vengeance with every attempt to control it. The best method, therefore, is to ignore it, like we sometimes discourage our naughty children's pranks by ignoring their behaviour as a call for unnecessary attention. Meditation then becomes a dispassionate watching of the thoughts similar to your looking at a tumultous river standing on its banks without getting into the dangerous currents. If such watching is practised for some time without getting dragged away by the thoughts (the dangerous currents of the mind), you will begin to realize that you are YOU inspite of the mind in front of you. The mind cannot then bother you any more (as your noisy children playing in the courtyard do not disturb your afternoon pondering) and you appreciate YOURSELF as the source of the mind. That the mind cannot be without YOU (the source) is appreciated here as the advatic truth and you remain in YOURSELF in such meditation throughout whether you are at the bus stop, on the toilet commode, in bed or even asleep as Bhagwan has said!. I believe this is the way we have to see the implied meaning in Bhagwan's statement. PraNAms. Madathil Nair _______________ advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar_s" <thefinalsearch> wrote: > "" Meditation and Mind control: "Meditation (dhyana) is a battle; > for it is the effort to keep hold of one thought to the exclusion > of all else; other thoughts arise and try to sink that thought; > when the latter gains strength the others are put to flight." > > What I've read is that we cannot control the mind to keep hold of one particular thought *excluding* all other thoughts. Exclusion means purposefully keeping a thought aside and that *thought* (the thought of a particular thought excluded) still exists in our mind ! > If you tell someone not to think of a monkey while drinking milk, what will be in his mind everytime when he drinks milk?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 On Wed, 14 May 2003, Ranjeet Sankar_s wrote: > > "" Meditation and Mind control: "Meditation (dhyana) is a battle; > for it is the effort to keep hold of one thought to the exclusion > of all else; other thoughts arise and try to sink that thought; > when the latter gains strength the others are put to flight." > > What I've read is that we cannot control the mind to keep hold of one particular thought *excluding* all other thoughts. Exclusion means purposefully keeping a thought aside and that *thought* (the thought of a particular thought excluded) still exists in our mind ! > If you tell someone not to think of a monkey while drinking milk, what will be in his mind everytime when he drinks milk?? > > Om > ranjeet > namaste. As I understand shri RamaNa's statement, that is exactly what He is trying to convey. We cannot control one thought with another thought. So, to have control of the mind, or for the mind to drop out, go to the source of the mind, or surrender yourself at the feet of Ishwara. Although not directly correlatable, the following verse (verse 20 from shivAnandalaharI of shri shankara) expresses the same theme. sadA mohATavyAM carati yuvatInAM kucagirau natatyAshAshAkhAsvaTati jhaTiti svairamabhitaH kapAliM bhiksho me hr^idaya-kapimatyantacapalaM dr^iDhaM bhaktyA badhvA shiva bhavadadhInaM kuru vibho 20 O Lord, Thou that bearest a skull in hand, Thou mendicant, Thou auspicious and all-pervading One; Accepting the monkey of my mind as my devout offering, bind it with (the cord of) bhakti and bring it under Thy control - this extremely wayward monkey that always wanders in the forest of ignorance, dancing on the hill-tops of young women's breasts, and moving about quickly in diverse directions (according to its promptings) along the branches of worldly desires. (translation by Kamala Chidambaram) ShivAnandalaharI has many verses where the Lord's help is sought in controlling the wayward wanderings of the mind. Regards Gummuluru Murthy - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 Namaste! Sri Madathil Rajendran Nair said: >As I understand and as you rightly pointed out, the >mind comes back with a vengeance with every attempt >to control it. The best method, therefore, is to >ignore it, like we sometimes discourage our naughty >children's pranks by ignoring their behaviour as a >call for unnecessary attention. > >Meditation then becomes a dispassionate watching of >the thoughts similar to your looking at a tumultous >river standing on its banks Sri Nair, I think you are quite right. Many famous Jnanas have said this. I certainly hope you are right, or I am lost! I think that progress has more to do with sincerity and sustained application than with 'straining the brain' to force it to do something unnatural. I will take the liberty of providing quite a few relevant quotes from Nisargadatta's 'I AM THAT', which can be found at http://www.nonduality.com/asmi.htm . Nisargadatta is 'just as good' as Ramana and on this website you will see that it is very easy to look things up, since it has such a good Table of Contents. I hope the moderators forgive the number of quotes; they are well worth it. The quotes from Nisargadatta now follow: Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy all the time. Stop it, and just be. If you give it rest, it will settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking makes it decay. (311) The self-styled gurus talk of ripeness and effort, of merits and achievements, of destiny and grace; all these are mere mental formations, projections of an addicted mind. Instead of helping, they obstruct. (422) Do nothing, just be. In being all happens naturally. (227) Do not imagine that you can change through effort. Violence, even turned against yourself, as in austerities and penance, will remain fruitless. (498) There is no place for effort in reality. It is selfishness, due to self-identification with the body, that is the main problem and the cause of other problems. And selfishness cannot be removed by effort, only by clear insight into its causes and effects. Effort is a sign of conflict between incompatible desires. They should be seen as they are - then only they dissolve. (476) Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not be convinced that effort will take you nowhere. The self is so self-confident that unless it is totally discouraged it will not give up. Mere verbal conviction is not enough. Hard facts alone can show the absolute nothingness of the self-image. (523) Abandon every attempt, just be; don't strive, don't struggle, let go of every support, hold on to the blind sense of being, brushing off all else. This is enough. (494) It is your idea that you have to do things that entangle you in the results of your efforts - the motive, the desire, the failure to achieve, the sense of frustration - all this holds you back. Simply look at whatever happens and know that you are beyond it. (148) A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly, once your mind is quiet. As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does self-awareness affect changes in the mind. In the light of calm and steady self-awareness, inner energies wake up and work miracles without any effort on your part. (311) Deepen and broaden your awareness of yourself and all the blessings will flow. You need not seek anything, all will come to you most naturally and effortlessly. (261) There is no effort in witnessing. You understand that you are the witness only, and the understanding acts. You need nothing more, just remember that you are the witness only. (303) Once you realize that the body depends on the mind, and the mind on consciousness, and consciousness on awareness, and not the other way round, your question about waiting for self-realization till you die is answered. It is not that you must be free from the 'I-am-the-body' idea first, and then realize the self. It is definitely the other way round - you cling to the false because you do not know the true. Earnestness, not perfection, is a precondition to self-realization. Virtues and powers come with realization, not before. (434) You must find your own way. Unless you find it yourself, it will not be your own way and will take you nowhere. Earnestly live your truth as you have found it, act on the little you have understood. It is earnestness that will take you through, not cleverness - your own or another's. (499) It is earnestness that is indispensable, the crucial factor. Sadhana is only a vessel and it must be filled to the brim with earnestness, which is but love in action. For nothing can be done without love. (482-3) Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair> wrote: > Namaste Rajeet-Ji. > > You have a point there. Bhagwan's statement is a reported quote. > Probably, it is an English translation of His advice originally > reported in Tamil. So, let us see if we can get rid of the seeming > ambiguity in it. Namaste All,IMO, I see no ambiguity in Ramana's statement. Follow the practise of 'Who am I?' and one rises above the mind, for it doesn't exist. Observing something that doesn't exist is hardly moksha, or meditation/dhyana/samadhi after all....ONS...Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Namste Tonyji, "I see no ambiguity in Ramana's statement. Follow the practise of 'Who am I?' and one rises above the mind, for it doesn't exist. Observing something that doesn't exist is hardly moksha, or meditation/dhyana/samadhi after all....ONS...Tony." There is a difference between *meditate* and *trying* to meditate. No one can *meditate* from day one. Everyone *try* to meditate until one day they do *meditation*. Shri Ramana's statement is meant for one who is *trying* to meditate. What you have said is true for one who *mediate* (in the right sense) where there is no *observing* either. I dont think one should define moksha, dhyana and samadhi in the same sense. I think the gradation is dhyana-->samadhi-->moksha. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Om ranjeet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Dear Ranjeet, >There is a difference between *meditate* and *trying* to meditate. No one can >*meditate* from day one. Everyone *try* to meditate until one day they do >*meditation*. You are very correct. Geetha uses the terms *yOgArooDha* for the one who has achieved it, and *Aruruksha* for the one who is trying. aruruksor munEr yogam karma kAraNam ucyate yogArooDhasya tasyaiva Shamah kAraNam ucyate || 6.3 The rich meaning(s) of the next few shlOkas provided by 6.4, 6.5, 6.6, 6.7 establish the process of an ArurukshOmuni becoming a yOgArooDha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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