Ramana and Aurobindo (Bhakti and JnAna)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Benjamin.

 

This is just a thought.

 

There is nothing wrong. What we see around us is already

paradisiacal. Why do we have to anticipate? The mountains, flowers,

valleys, rivers etc. are already around us. We just fail to see the

beauty of them all because we anticipate a liberation to come not

realizing that we are already done. No wonder then that that

anticipated liberation is cold and abstract like being there in outer

space!

 

I had a lesson early one monring in a busy market place in downtown

Kuwait. There was this Kuwaiti old man with his vehicle loaded with

all the choicest vegetables of the season. And, there came a

Palestinian in a van with his six daughters, their faces gleaming and

hair beautifully braided. The Kuwaiti patriarch guffawed:

Maashallah! (That is just like saying how great is God!). He saw his

dear Allah in that grand spectacle of six beautiful children lending

beauty to the early morning sunshine. He didn't hesitate any more.

He emptied all his vegetables on to the Palestinians van. How else

could he pay tribute to his dear Allah who made that grand spectacle

possible?! A real bhakta and jnAni indeed!

 

Believe me, back in my dear India, that poor Palestinian father would

have been subjected to a long lecture on family planning! Please

don't misunderstand me - this is not to discourage family planning

which is very much needed in India but just to drive home the point

that the world is already beautiful despite all the miseries wrongly

imposed on it.

>From the vegetable market back to dear home, there again is a

Malayalam movie on the TV. This time, the poor hero is a hunchback

madly in love with a beautiful but helpless blind girl. He struggles

against odds and arranges an eye surgery that would make her see

again. His friend and mentor advises him against it because he

fears the girl, when cured, would hate the gallant but ugly

hunchback. The hunchback has something in him that most of us miss -

compassion. Against his friend's advice, he pays for the operation

and watching him pay, I, the simple fool, weep because I see my

Mother in him, in his kindness.

 

In our Devi MAhAtmya, to be precise in the fifth chapter, mother is

likened to whatever we see around us and saluted. Mother is

kindness, Mother is mother, Mother is memory, Mother is intellect,

Mother is peace, Mother is error and what not! Above all She is

Consciousness pervading everything. You won't believe Benjamin -

that fifth chapter is the 'beautifullest' part of Devi MAhAtmya.

Chanting that chapter transports one to exalted peaks of pure ecstasy.

 

Tell me now, do we have to await a future life envisioned by

Aurobindo to discern the beauty and sweetness of it all when She is

all around for the discerning eye to see.

She is right here around us everywhere. Let me, therefore, sing Her

glories, be a bundle of sweetness and roll right here on the

ground. A future liberation is not my kettle of fish anyway.

 

That, I reckon, is bhakti and jnAna both rolled together like a

Sunday morning sandwich.

 

Thank you for supporting me with that meditation interpretation of

Bh. Ramana's quote.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

______

 

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

I have difficulty seeing what

> is wrong with an ideal paradisical 'world' with ideal beautiful

> flowers, mountains, rivers, people, etc. Why can we not become

> 'realized' and yet enjoy the beautiful spectacle? For sure, we

must

> give up identification with the illusion of the body, but may that

> illusion not then become a delightful spectacle, the dance of Maya?

>

> Sometimes the pure Advaitin notion of complete liberation from the

> phenomenal world seems very cold and abstract to me, if not

> incomprehensible. Often I feel inclined to interpret Advaita as

the

> purification of how we see this or any world, not the elimination

> altogether of a world. What would be left? Infinite black space?

> Perhaps I really fail to understand something essential...

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

 

First of all, Sri Madathil Rajendran Nair, you are right: it

is 'paradisiacal' and not 'paradisical'. My online dictionary failed

me by not having that word at all! If you knew that without looking

it up, then your English is indeed pretty good.

 

Second, I understand your point, namely, that this world is

as beautiful as we are prepared to see, i.e, a judgment like beauty

is an interpretation of the mind. Before proceeding further, I feel

compelled to concoct some reason why this is related to this month's

topic. Well, Ishwara and devotion to him/her are, from the Advaitin

point of view, every bit as much in the mind as our appreciation of

beauty. So it is a similar subject. I hope that will do.

 

Now, continuing on with what you said... If you do feel such

'peaks of pure ecstasy' when chanting a certain chapter from a

certain scripture devoted to the divine Mother, then I am quite

impressed. This only confirms my earlier point that Indians, even

today, seem to be delirious with the 'devotion bug'. A far better

infection that SARS, you will agree! (I hope that lame humor works!)

I am only using this language to make a point: such intense devotion

is a curious and fascinating phenomenon to jaded Westerners, who

either for the most part don't really believe anymore in God, or the

few like me who are groping and climbing towards him painfully and

slowly on the ropes of philosophy.

 

As for the beauty you see in nature, I still see it but I

once saw it much more intensely. I could once become intoxicated

with the sights and smells of nature, but now that rarely happens.

Did my spirit become jaded through an overabundance of intellect?

Did I fill my mind with tamas (darkness) through over-indulgence of

the senses? I do not know. But a major part of the reason I am

pursuing Advaita is that I feel intuitively that it is the path that

is most likely to lead me back to wisdom and inspiration. Something

about it resonates with me.

 

So you are right that this is a beautiful world for those who

have the eyes and spirit to see. But can we deny the pain and hatred

and violence? We can argue that they are illusions in the mind, but

those illusions are very real to the multitude who believe in them.

 

And I still wonder ... this body, as beautiful as it is (or

can be) on the outside, is it really beautiful on the inside? I

don't mean to sound strange. This question is asked in all

earnestness. Can we imagine a true deva (God, Goddess) as full of

blood, guts, excrement, etc? Before feeling indignation, know that

Shankara himself, in the Vivekachudamani, describes the body as foul

and impure. If beauty and ugliness are only in the mind, then why

does Indian (and other) devotional art always portray Gods and

Goddesses in the most idealistic terms, full of youth and beauty?

 

And speaking of Gods and Goddesses, just who or what is

Krishna, for example? I am inclined to think that he is not a

specific person with a specific address on some planet in this or

another universe. Rather, I think that he is a prototype for all

'higher beings' who are realized yet still have some kind of body,

and I cannot but believe that this body is eternally beautiful and

youthful. Perhaps just my silly superstition.

 

Thanks, Tony, for you helpful comment in this regard. I am

still wondering if full Moksha means the 'liberation' from any kind

of body whatsoever, however ideal, and the 'annihilation' of any kind

of 'world' whatsoever, however beautiful. One can sometimes get

that impression upon reading the Advaitic literature. Advaita makes

the most sense to me, intellectually, but the artist and poet in me

still wants a beautiful world, even if I can dispense with the

beautiful body!

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Namste Benjaminji,

 

"Now, continuing on with what you said... If you do feel such

'peaks of pure ecstasy' when chanting a certain chapter from a

certain scripture devoted to the divine Mother, then I am quite

impressed. This only confirms my earlier point that Indians, even

today, seem to be delirious with the 'devotion bug'. "

 

I believe its because of this 'devotion bug' that most Indians take the Bhakti

marga and not the jnAna marga. jnAna marga is difficult because in every turn

you take, your intellect will be standing with some doubts...whereas for a

bhakta there is no room for doubts..just pure blind devotion for the Lord.

 

Om

ranjeet

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Benjamin,

 

'Paradisical' is ok too, according to my on-line OED.

 

What you and Nair-ji are saying triggered me to join in here briefly.

(Unfortunately, I will be away for the next week so unable to follow up on

anything.)

 

You were talking about seeing beauty here and now and not having to wait for

'enlightenment'. Of course you are right and I understand what you say about

the tendency to see less as one intellectualises more and more. I've

actually made very similar comments about the Indian bhakta attitude to Sri

Nair off-line. Fortunately I am very interested in the natural world and

enjoy walking and photography so I often find opportunities simply to

appreciate and marvel at the beauty, with the mind still and not trying to

join in the experience and ruin it by thinking about it.

 

But you go on to talk about the 'pain, hatred and violence' and, yes, I

think there is a tendency in bhakti to emphasise the former and ignore the

latter. The point surely must be that, whilst still in vyavahAra, you "can't

have one without the o-o-other" as the (very) old song used to put it. They

are *both* ultimately illusory. One cannot appreciate the true sadchidAnanda

until the mind-ego has dissolved. Obviously it much more pleasant to become

attached to the beauty etc. than to the misery but why is it that the former

ends up being a path to the truth since both are equally necessary? Just

struck me whilst reading your post that it is somewhat curious.

 

You also asked about the 'darker' side of the body of a deva. My

understanding was that they also have a limited life span, albeit much

longer than ours obviously. They have to be reborn in a human form before

they can attain liberation. So presumably they must 'die'. I must confess

that it is considerations such as these that make it ever so difficult to

generate credibility. I confess also to be very wary of making comments such

as these lest I unintentionally upset any of the more ardent bhaktas. That

is certainly not intended. Just, as Benjamin puts it, the indoctrination of

the 'jaded Westerner'.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote:

> Hi Benjamin,

>

> 'Paradisical' is ok too, according to my on-line OED.

>

> What you and Nair-ji are saying triggered me to join in here

briefly.

> (Unfortunately, I will be away for the next week so unable to

follow up on

> anything.)

>

> You were talking about seeing beauty here and now and not having to

wait for

> 'enlightenment'. Of course you are right and I understand what you

say about

> the tendency to see less as one intellectualises more and more. I've

> actually made very similar comments about the Indian bhakta

attitude to Sri

> Nair off-line. Fortunately I am very interested in the natural

world and

> enjoy walking and photography so I often find opportunities simply

to

> appreciate and marvel at the beauty, with the mind still and not

trying to

> join in the experience and ruin it by thinking about it.

>

> But you go on to talk about the 'pain, hatred and violence' and,

yes, I

> think there is a tendency in bhakti to emphasise the former and

ignore the

> latter. The point surely must be that, whilst still in vyavahAra,

you "can't

> have one without the o-o-other" as the (very) old song used to put

it. They

> are *both* ultimately illusory. One cannot appreciate the true

sadchidAnanda

> until the mind-ego has dissolved. Obviously it much more pleasant

to become

> attached to the beauty etc. than to the misery but why is it that

the former

> ends up being a path to the truth since both are equally necessary?

Just

> struck me whilst reading your post that it is somewhat curious.

>

> You also asked about the 'darker' side of the body of a deva. My

> understanding was that they also have a limited life span, albeit

much

> longer than ours obviously. They have to be reborn in a human form

before

> they can attain liberation. So presumably they must 'die'. I must

confess

> that it is considerations such as these that make it ever so

difficult to

> generate credibility. I confess also to be very wary of making

comments such

> as these lest I unintentionally upset any of the more ardent

bhaktas. That

> is certainly not intended. Just, as Benjamin puts it, the

indoctrination of

> the 'jaded Westerner'.

>

> Best wishes,

>

Namaste All,

 

If one sees all as a manifestation of Sakti, then all is beautiful.

With regard to Devas many take rebirth as humans so they may be

released and escape their happiness, in pursuit of Moksha. Only

Nirguna is without a life span.......ONS....Tony.

> Dennis

[Guest guest]

Namaste!

 

Dennis: Your skepticism regarding devas is fine from an

Advaitic point of view, which does not depend in any fundamental way

on their existence. My real concern is whether the proper

interpretation of Advaitic Moksha precludes rebirth in any kind of

body (however angelic) in any kind of world (however paradisical).

Some accounts of Moksha seem to imply that. It just seems to me

more interesting and enjoyable to gain all of the spiritual benefits

of Advaitic consciousness and then express them somehow in a

beautiful world of 'purified maya'.

 

Nevertheless, I retain my humility regarding Moksha, which is

far beyond my comprehension. It may be that once we are 'there', the

infinite perfection of that seemingly abstract state far exceeds the

beauties of any possible phenomenal samsaric world. Who knows?

 

 

Tony: Regarding beauty, pain etc., I think you make the right point:

>If one sees all as a manifestation of Sakti, then all is beautiful.

 

Whereas Dennis sees beauty and ugliness, pain and pleasure,

etc. as two necessary sides of the same coin, like the light and

shadow in a painting, I agree with you that when we are 'realized'

all is beautiful. At least, I hope so!

 

Some evidence for this can be read in a fascinating article

called 'The Dazzling Dark' by John Wren-Lewis, which can be found at:

 

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5683/dazzdark.html

 

He was a scientist who was skeptical of all 'spiritual'

claims until he had an unexpected experience of enlightenment. He

makes some comments about the beauty of the 'now' quite in agreement

with what Tony says. Much of what he says echoes the wisdom of

Advaita, e.g. Brahman becomes 'Ground' a la Meister Eckhart, yet he

doesn't seem to know about Advaita or at least doesn't mention it

here, though he does know about Buddhism. (There are many such

accounts on the web, by people who may or may not have read Indian

spiritual literature.)

 

I guess you can always have some doubts about any author's

sincerity ... he might just be another joker trying to sell a book

with a fictional account ... but he seems pretty authentic to me.

Something about the 'professional' way that he writes gives me some

confidence of his seriousness.

 

In particular, I was fascinated to read what he had to say

about a 'painful' experience that was no longer so painful:

>First, if there were a section in the Guinness Book of Records

>for cowardice about physical pain, I would be sure of a place there.

>But with eternity consciousness, pain becomes simply a warning

>signal which, once heeded (irrespective of whether a physical remedy

>is available), becomes simply an interesting sensation, another of

>nature's wonders.

 

Now Nisargadatta said something similar in that site that I

sent the list earlier today. You can easily find it there, thanks to

the TOC.

 

Definitely food for thought!

 

Om!

Benjamin