Thanks Dennis

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dennis,

>You make some very good points about the attitudes

>of various religions...

 

As usual, your points are also quite valid. Mostly I just

wish people would take a more 'experiential' approach to

spirituality, based on introspection and meditation rather than

dogma. That does seem to describe Eastern religions rather well.

And it does seem to lead to a calmer, wiser, less contentious type

of spirituality. I think these trends are undeniable.

 

But I also think that the various religions develop to meet

the collective karma of different groups of people, who are at some

average level of consciousness. So what must happen must happen.

And yes, any kind of aggressive or annoying proselytizing is against

the spirit of Eastern religions and simply would not work.

 

Once again I strayed too far from the main purpose of the

Advaitin list and annoyed some people. But I think I am losing what

used to be an irresistable urge bursting forth inside of me to

express myself on these topics. Maybe I've finally exhausted some

negative vasanas.

 

Anyhow, I went to check out the various spirituality-related

to find one more suitable for my interests and made a

sad discovery. There are hundreds or thousands of them, but most

seem quite frivolous. Only a handful have the quality and standards

of this one. I've checked out the others recommended on your site.

But even (or especially) on the handful of 'scholarly' ones, it

seems that bold, imaginative, and intuitive speculation is

constrained. Such speculation is of course dangerous, but India was

at its greatest glory when many different schools and groups were

earnestly seeking the truth as best they could. Mere scholasticism

is the death of the spirit.

 

Mostly, though, I feel so sad that the internet reveals so

much superficiality regarding spirituality, especially when it comes

to discussion groups. Surely there must be many intelligent people

out there, who even if they don't yet believe in anything, at least

wonder about life and death. But as I said, the vast majority of

those groups seem like superficial and frivolous entertainment. I

think that most people anesthetize themselves with

sense-distractions, so that they can forget they will die, until the

day it happens. Perhaps that's just as well.

 

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Hello Benjamin,

 

Your laments make it sound like you are a relative newcomer to these groups.

Old-timers don't expect profundity from e-mail lists. Indeed, this list is

close to being unique in the depth, intelligence and seriousness of its posts on

spiritual topics.

 

Regards,

 

--Greg

 

At 05:12 PM 5/27/2003 -0400, Benjamin Root wrote:

 

> Thanks Dennis,

>

>>You make some very good points about the attitudes

>>of various religions...

>

> As usual, your points are also quite valid. Mostly I just

>wish people would take a more 'experiential' approach to

>spirituality, based on introspection and meditation rather than

>dogma. That does seem to describe Eastern religions rather well.

>And it does seem to lead to a calmer, wiser, less contentious type

>of spirituality. I think these trends are undeniable.

>

> But I also think that the various religions develop to meet

>the collective karma of different groups of people, who are at some

>average level of consciousness. So what must happen must happen.

>And yes, any kind of aggressive or annoying proselytizing is against

>the spirit of Eastern religions and simply would not work.

>

> Once again I strayed too far from the main purpose of the

>Advaitin list and annoyed some people. But I think I am losing what

>used to be an irresistable urge bursting forth inside of me to

>express myself on these topics. Maybe I've finally exhausted some

>negative vasanas.

>

> Anyhow, I went to check out the various spirituality-related

> to find one more suitable for my interests and made a

>sad discovery. There are hundreds or thousands of them, but most

>seem quite frivolous. Only a handful have the quality and standards

>of this one. I've checked out the others recommended on your site.

>But even (or especially) on the handful of 'scholarly' ones, it

>seems that bold, imaginative, and intuitive speculation is

>constrained. Such speculation is of course dangerous, but India was

>at its greatest glory when many different schools and groups were

>earnestly seeking the truth as best they could. Mere scholasticism

>is the death of the spirit.

>

> Mostly, though, I feel so sad that the internet reveals so

>much superficiality regarding spirituality, especially when it comes

>to discussion groups. Surely there must be many intelligent people

>out there, who even if they don't yet believe in anything, at least

>wonder about life and death. But as I said, the vast majority of

>those groups seem like superficial and frivolous entertainment. I

>think that most people anesthetize themselves with

>sense-distractions, so that they can forget they will die, until the

>day it happens. Perhaps that's just as well.

>

> Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Hi Greg,

>Your laments make it sound like you are a relative

>newcomer to these groups. Old-timers don't expect

>profundity from e-mail lists. Indeed, this list is

>close to being unique in the depth, intelligence and

>seriousness of its posts on spiritual topics.

 

 

I am indeed a newcomer. But for everybody who is lucky enough to

become a professor, aren't there ten bright students who have to get

a real job for a living? And aren't they eager to discuss ideas?

I'm not saying that there should be millions or even thousands. But

so few on the whole damned internet?

 

Anyhow, I'm not so sure that every professor is so happy. He has to

keep up with fashions and trends and cannot always afford to say what

he really thinks, for fear of ridicule.

 

For example, subjective idealism, or any notion that consciousness is

everything, is NOT fashionable in today's academic climate. I know

about your professor, but he was a brave soul.

 

Also, I've read some articles on the current state of Indian studies

in American universities. It seems you get more notoriety by

discussing the sexual aspects of Hinduism (and perhaps embellishing

upon them), than by discussing something as sober as Advaita!

Spirituality does not thrive on our campuses. They are sustained

mostly by money and ambition.

 

Here I go again digressing from the list's 'marching orders'. It's a

good thing I never got drafted!

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

> As usual, your points are also quite valid. Mostly I just

> wish people would take a more 'experiential' approach to

> spirituality, based on introspection and meditation rather than

> dogma. That does seem to describe Eastern religions rather well.

> And it does seem to lead to a calmer, wiser, less contentious

type

> of spirituality. I think these trends are undeniable.

>

 

 

Have you read the reasons why Shankara, himself, said that he set

about refuting the other schools? You might be surprised with his

explanation.

 

> Surely there must be many intelligent people

> out there, who even if they don't yet believe in anything, at

least

> wonder about life and death. But as I said, the vast majority of

> those groups seem like superficial and frivolous entertainment. I

> think that most people anesthetize themselves with

> sense-distractions, so that they can forget they will die, until

the

> day it happens. Perhaps that's just as well.

>

> Benjamin

 

 

You might take a look at the science and philosophy groups, too.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "concordance909"

<concordance909> wrote:

 

 

Have you read the reasons why Shankara, himself, said that he set

about refuting the other schools? You might be surprised with his

explanation.

 

 

 

 

KKT: I would like to read

this explanation of Shankara.

 

Thanks.

 

 

KKT

[Guest guest]

Dear Benjamin, Some Comments on your statements (from different messages) with a

fervent hope that you may find them helpful: Benjamin:Once again I strayed too

far from the main purpose of the

Advaitin list and annoyed some people. But I think I am losing what

used to be an irresistable urge bursting forth inside of me to

express myself on these topics. Maybe I've finally exhausted some

negative vasanas.

Venkat:I am not one of the moderators but still as someone who was brought to

this list by the irresitable call od Advaita, I can say that you did not stray

at all. All your discussions were firmly rooted in Advaita at one end and

Mahayana Buddhism, Solipsism, Subjective Idealism, Berkley etc at the other end.

While the subject at the other end kept changing, Advaita was always there at

the other end. That is not straying by my book.

Benjamin:Anyhow, I went to check out the various spirituality-related

to find one more suitable for my interests and made a

sad discovery. There are hundreds or thousands of them, but most

seem quite frivolous. Only a handful have the quality and standards

of this one. Venkat:You are right; advaitin is the best of them all. This is

also my personal finding.

Benjamin:Mostly I just wish people would take a more 'experiential' approach to

spirituality, based on introspection and meditation rather than dogma.

Venkat:Well this is a scholarly list and the methods used are intellectual and

not 'experiential'. Nevertheless, the type of debate we had, I don't think, can

by any stretch of imagination be called dogmatic. Concordance909 (may we know

you by a more conventional name, sir) disagreed with you, but the disageement

was honest and well argued. So were the disageements of Michael and others. Well

there was just one case where argument might be viewed as based on dogma - but

in a list of 600 the probability of that cannot be entirely ruled out. Also I

think email lists are not places where arguments can be won. At best you can

make some valid and relevant observations, which if you are lucky will get

acknowledged by a reply, criticism or a word of appreciation. In my opinion the

worst thing that can happen to a message is that it is simply ignored by all.

That is something which has happened not often in your case and that is the best

acknowledgement, I think, one can get from a list. Benjamin:When I came in

yesterday, I was bursting with enthusiasm to write a

long account of whatever I could remember from the lectures.

However, when I read about the understandable annoyance of some

members regarding my long-winded digressions, my heart sank and the

wind went out of my sails. Now, unfortunately, the memories of the

lectures are rapidly fading from my aging brain... But it doesn't

matter, because any verbal account is a poor substitute for the

actual experience of listening to a talented public speaker. Venkat:Please do a

few unfortunate souls like us, who could not be in Washington to listen to

Sadaji in person, a great favour by recreating on this list the magic of his

lectures the way only you can do through your messages. May be they do not

measure up to the greatness of the original lectures themselves; but for that

reason if you do not recount them for us, we will neither have the original nor

your 99% version. By the way, we are on this list to keep our hearts buoyant and

not to let them sink. And as for taking the wind out of sails, we don't anymore

ply those type of ships even in India. Benjamin:I keep thinking it's just an

intimate conversation between you, me, Venkat, Tony and the usual cast of

characters. Venkat:So that is another reason for us to keep the conversation

going. It's 9 pm here and I am still in the office. I should be leaving for home

now. And after a good night's sleep, can I expect to see your first instalment

on Sadaji's Upadesa Saram? And on a more personal note, Benjamin, I simply am

addicted to your messages. I need 3 or 4 of them everyday. Not the best of

things to happen to a seeker after enlightement. But then that is how things

are. Cheers,Venkat.

 

 

 

 

Plus - For a better Internet experience

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "phamdluan2000" <phamdluan@a...>

wrote:

> KKT: I would like to read

> this explanation of Shankara.

>

> Thanks.

>

>

> KKT

 

 

Here you go:

 

The following quote from Shankara appears in the commentary to

II.ii.1 in Thibaut's translation of the Brahma Sutra Bhasya.

 

"Although it is the object of this system to define the true meaning

of the Vedanta-texts and not, like the science of Logic, to

establish or refute some tenet by mere ratiocination, still it is

incumbent on thorough students of the Vedanta to refute the Sankhya

and other systems which are obstacles in the way of perfect

knowledge. For this purpose a new chapter is begun. (Nor must it be

said that the refutation of other systems ought to have preceded the

establishment of the Vedanta position; for) as the determination of

the sense of the Vedanta-passages directly subserves perfect

knowledge, we have at first, by means of such a determination,

established our own position, since this is a task more importance

than the refutation of the views entertained by others.

"Here an opponent might come forward and say that we are indeed

entitled to establish our own position, so as to define perfect

knowledge which is the means of release to those desirous of it, but

that no use is apparent of a refutation of other opinions, a

proceeding productive of nothing but hate and anger. - There is a

use, we reply. For there is some danger of men of inferior

intelligence looking upon the Sankhya and similar systems as

requisite for perfect knowledge, because those systems have a

weighty appearance, have been adopted by authoritative persons, and

profess to lead to perfect knowledge. Such people might therefore

think that those systems with their abstruse arguments were

propounded by omniscient sages, and might on that account have faith

in them. For this reason we must endeavour to demonstrate their

intrinsic worthlessness."

 

And, also, in the commentary to II.ii.3, Shankara writes:

 

"... the highest beatitude (the highest aim of man) is not to be

attained by the knowledge of the Sankhya-smriti irrespective of the

Veda, nor by the road of Yoga-practice.* For Scripture itself

declares that there is no other means of obtaining the highest

beatitude but the knowledge of the unity of the Self which is

conveyed by the Veda, `Over death passes only the man who knows him;

there is no other path to go' (Sve. Up. III. 8) And the Sankhya and

Yoga-systems maintain duality, do not discern the unity of the

Self."

* "Yoga" here, as explained earlier, means the Yoga-school, which

was similar to Sankhya in its metaphysics.

 

So, rather than narrow-minded scholasticism, it seems that Shankara

was honestly concerned for the welfare of students of Vedanta, and

saw a real deficiency in the teachings of the dualistic and

nihilistic schools, and the only compassionate course of action in

such a situation would be to examine the teachings of these schools

and outline their deficiencies.

[Guest guest]

Hi Benjamin,

 

You pointed out that "Anyhow, I went to check out the various

spirituality-related to find one more suitable for my interests

and made a sad discovery. There are hundreds or thousands of them, but most

seem quite frivolous. Only a handful have the quality and standards of this

one."

 

I suspect you may be right though one would certainly have thought that

there ought to be something along the lines of what you suggest. If there

really isn't, though, why not start a new one? I'm sure quite a few members

of this group would be willing to join. It is obviously reasonable that an

'Advaitin' group must concentrate its main investigations into Advaita and I

think you must admit that this one is exceptionally well run, balancing

tolerance of ideas with intolerance of abuse whilst trying to maintain the

general direction. But I agree there is a place for a less parochial group

that admits other 'similar' ideas from whatever source. Do it and advertise

its existence on some of the larger unsuitable ones! (But don't leave this

one, I'm sure that most would miss your frequent interesting and

enthusiastic contributions.)

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone,

 

You can read the list description and try out if it suits

your taste.

Around 545 or more members and an interdisciplinary orientation.

 

Love to all

Harsha

>

> /join

>

>

>

>

 

 

Dennis Waite wrote:

> Hi Benjamin,

>

> You pointed out that "Anyhow, I went to check out the various

> spirituality-related to find one more suitable for my

> interests

> and made a sad discovery. There are hundreds or thousands of them,

> but most

> seem quite frivolous. Only a handful have the quality and standards

> of this

> one."

>

> I suspect you may be right though one would certainly have thought that

> there ought to be something along the lines of what you suggest. If there

> really isn't, though, why not start a new one? I'm sure quite a few

> members

> of this group would be willing to join. It is obviously reasonable that an

> 'Advaitin' group must concentrate its main investigations into Advaita

> and I

> think you must admit that this one is exceptionally well run, balancing

> tolerance of ideas with intolerance of abuse whilst trying to maintain the

> general direction. But I agree there is a place for a less parochial group

> that admits other 'similar' ideas from whatever source. Do it and

> advertise

> its existence on some of the larger unsuitable ones! (But don't leave this

> one, I'm sure that most would miss your frequent interesting and

> enthusiastic contributions.)

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Dennis

>