Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Namaste my friends, I am trying to come up with a new line of inquiry that is within the guidelines of our list and the topic of the month, namely, spiritual progress. Karma seems to be one valid subject, as it is intricately related to spiritual growth. Now I do believe in karma of some kind. The concept seems inseparable from the mere possibility of spiritual growth and immortality. If life beyond the death of the body is at all possible, and if it has any kind of rhyme or reason, then surely some form of karma operates. The devil is in the details, as we say. But there is at least one problem. It seems impossible that we should obtain the new life and circumstances that we 'deserve' unless everybody's life (and indeed the entire 'world') is choreographed in some way. Simple common sense suggests that chance alone cannot provide the right distribution of slots necessary to accommodate the karma of all the disembodied 'souls' flying around in a holding pattern waiting for the right body, family and environment to be born into. Just think about it and the incredible logistics required. Furthermore, it would mean that the karmas of the various members of a family and community (indeed of the entire world) are bound and correlated to each other in some intricate way, so that the whole process could work together smoothly. But then am I really 'responsible' for my behavior, if this behavior must also be such as to make my karma compatible with the overall process? Those with a scientific background can realize the astronomical unlikelihood of all this happening other than through some overall tight choreography and machinery. This is yet one more reason why I suspect that free will does not exist. The whole spectacle of life proceeds from a script written before the beginning of time. This does not mean, however, that we have no moral obligations and no need for effort. Rather, even the effort and morality consist of feelings and predispositions that are part of the script. Any thoughts? Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Greetings, everyone. I am new here. advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben> wrote: > > Namaste my friends, > > I am trying to come up with a new line of inquiry that is > within the guidelines of our list and the topic of the month, namely, > spiritual progress. Karma seems to be one valid subject, as it is > intricately related to spiritual growth. > > Now I do believe in karma of some kind. The concept seems > inseparable from the mere possibility of spiritual growth and > immortality. If life beyond the death of the body is at all > possible, and if it has any kind of rhyme or reason, then surely some > form of karma operates. The devil is in the details, as we say. > > But there is at least one problem. It seems impossible that > we should obtain the new life and circumstances that we 'deserve' > unless everybody's life (and indeed the entire 'world') is > choreographed in some way. Simple common sense suggests that chance > alone cannot provide the right distribution of slots necessary to > accommodate the karma of all the disembodied 'souls' flying around in > a holding pattern waiting for the right body, family and environment > to be born into. Just think about it and the incredible logistics > required. Hey Ben, I'm the materialist from the Advaitotozen group that Greg told you about! How's it going? (BTW, I am NOT a materialist! The Buddhist conception of a mindstream (no souls flying around!) which after death manifests into one of the 6 realms seems to alleviate this difficulty. We don't know how many hell beings or gods or insects there are, so if one believes in this conception of karma, then there is no problem here. > > Furthermore, it would mean that the karmas of the various > members of a family and community (indeed of the entire world) are > bound and correlated to each other in some intricate way, so that the > whole process could work together smoothly. But then am I really > 'responsible' for my behavior, if this behavior must also be such as > to make my karma compatible with the overall process? Those with a > scientific background can realize the astronomical unlikelihood of > all this happening other than through some overall tight choreography > and machinery. > > This is yet one more reason why I suspect that free will does > not exist. The whole spectacle of life proceeds from a script > written before the beginning of time. This does not mean, however, > that we have no moral obligations and no need for effort. Rather, > even the effort and morality consist of feelings and predispositions > that are part of the script. > > Any thoughts? > > Benjamin I also think the ultimate truth of the matter is that we are impersonal aspects of the functioning of the absolute -- so we really don't have choice. But karma, the effects of our actions are still reaped, even though we didn't have choice. I suspect that even though this is the truth, those of religious inclination will object to this for fear it might mislead some of the fold astray. But if one really has faith that all is Brahma, then it's in God's hands, not ours. As N. Maharaj said once, "God created the world, let him fix it!" IMO, there is little need for these teachings on rebirth and karma. They served the purpose of scaring people into moral lives. The reason I say we don't need them is because we simply cannot know if they are true or not, and to me they seem to burden the mind with extra baggage/fear, living artificial lives from the POV of "I will be good, for I don't want to be reborn an insect" rather than looking into the true nature of our self and the existence of this moment as it occurs. Glad to be here, and look forward to interacting with everyone. Regards, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 Namaste and welcome Joe! >The Buddhist conception of a mindstream (no souls >flying around!) which after death manifests into >one of the 6 realms seems to alleviate this difficulty. I think this might increase the logistical nightmare. I guess we need to do some math. Anyhow, you are probably right that such questions are not relevant to spiritual progress and perhaps even a distraction. And yet, karma is indeed central to Hinduism and Buddhism. So the moderators cannot object to my raising the subject! I guess we should concentrate on the purification of our immediate awareness and let the afterlife take care of itself. Just what the Buddha said. Still, I may have had a point when I said that karma may ultimately be possible only if all history in all realms is a tightly choreographed script. There may be some mathematical theorem not yet written down which proves this. In turn, this would put another nail in the coffin of free will, so that our only hope is surrender to the Divine Will. But then, what is that Divine Will? The pacifist will say it is peace and restraint in the face of violence. The crusader and jehadi will say that it is violence to spread the truth. Perhaps we can only wait and see how the script ends. Or else, the purist Advaitin will say that the script is unreal and irrelevant. So why resist evil? Because it is a necessary moral duty as part of an unreal and irrelevant script? Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2003 Report Share Posted June 20, 2003 advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben> wrote: > > > Namaste and welcome Joe! Thanks! > > >The Buddhist conception of a mindstream (no souls > >flying around!) which after death manifests into > >one of the 6 realms seems to alleviate this difficulty. > > I think this might increase the logistical nightmare. I guess we > need to do some math. Anyhow, you are probably right that such > questions are not relevant to spiritual progress and perhaps even a > distraction. And yet, karma is indeed central to Hinduism and > Buddhism. So the moderators cannot object to my raising the subject! No, it is a good subject, if only because it is so widely believed. > > I guess we should concentrate on the purification of our immediate > awareness and let the afterlife take care of itself. Just what the > Buddha said. Still, I may have had a point when I said that karma > may ultimately be possible only if all history in all realms is a > tightly choreographed script. There may be some mathematical theorem > not yet written down which proves this. In turn, this would put > another nail in the coffin of free will, so that our only hope is > surrender to the Divine Will. Sandeep Chatterjee said something on this that I liked: we could only surrender if there anything to truly surrender! My interpretation was that we have nothing to surrender because nothing is ours. Surrendering means that we are doing our own actions or that we are separate beings acting indendently. > > But then, what is that Divine Will? The pacifist will say it is > peace and restraint in the face of violence. The crusader and jehadi > will say that it is violence to spread the truth. Perhaps we can > only wait and see how the script ends. Or else, the purist Advaitin > will say that the script is unreal and irrelevant. So why resist > evil? Because it is a necessary moral duty as part of an unreal and > irrelevant script? Another good question: what is the Divine Will? IMO nobody can know! As soon as it is conceptualized, it is by necessity divided, and therefore cannot be the divine will. Even this statement I made is conceptualizing it and therefore saying something about it! Silence seems to be the only answer re: divine will. Do you think if we worry about resisting evil, then perhaps we are not surrendered? If we were really surrendered, we would have faith that the appropriate, indeed, the only action that could occur will occur when the circumstances arise. Preplanning or worrying seems to me to point out our lack of faith in the absolute and also reinforces the notion of a separate me who will act according to my own will when these isolated event occurs that is deemed 'evil'. Does this makes sense to you? Catch you later, Joe > > Om! > Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2003 Report Share Posted June 23, 2003 --- josesiem <josesiem wrote: > > Sandeep Chatterjee said something on this that I liked: we could only > surrender if there anything to truly surrender! My interpretation was > that we have nothing to surrender because nothing is ours. That joe is what is involed in surrendering. When one realizes that there really nothing to surrender, one has surrendered completely. > > Do you think if we worry about resisting evil, then perhaps we are > not surrendered? If we were really surrendered, we would have faith > that the appropriate, indeed, the only action that could occur will > occur when the circumstances arise. And Joe is the true understanding of divine will. That is seen when 'I am the doer' notion drops. >Preplanning or worrying seems to > me to point out our lack of faith in the absolute and also reinforces > the notion of a separate me who will act according to my own will > when these isolated event occurs that is deemed 'evil'. Does this > makes sense to you? Perfet Joe. You are absolutely right. Your understanding is perfect. Welcome to the list. Hari OM! Sadananda > Catch you later, > Joe > > > > > > > > Om! > > Benjamin > > > ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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