Question

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

 

 

I am sure the question I am going to raise have appeared in the List in the

past. As a new member I apologize for it.

 

 

>From your point of view, what is the main sadhana according to the "Shankara’s

map"

 

 

 

Love from Spain

 

 

 

Diego

 

 

 

 

Messenger

Nueva versión: Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y más

#161;Gratis!

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003, Diego wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

>

>

> I am sure the question I am going to raise have appeared

> in the List in the past. As a new member I apologize for it.

>

> From your point of view, what is the main sadhana according

> to the "Shankara’s map"

>

>

> Love from Spain

>

> Diego

>

 

namaste and welcome to the List.

 

I feel sAdhana catuShTayam, making yourself eligible for jnAnam

to dawn on you is the main point shri shankara stressed again

and again.

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Diego:

 

Your question is quite loaded and you had the right observation and

answers can be searched through the list archives containing about

18,000 postings. For the seekers, one of the best guide book is

Bhagavad Gita which describes the sadhana in a conversational style.

Shankara has written lengthy commentary on Gita and a translation of

Shankara's commentary by Gambirananda is available at the files

section of this list with the URL address:

 

advaitinBhagawad%20Gita%

20Commentaries%20and%20References/Shankara1/

(since the URL appears in two lines, you should cut and paste and

combine both lines on the Webaddress.

 

Alternatively you can access the site and click on:

advaitin

and click on

BhagawadGitaCommentariesandReferences

and finally click on

Shankara1

 

The major works of Shankara such as Vivekachoodamani, Atmabodh,

DhakshinamurthiStotra also contain detailed instructions to Sadhakas

to conduct the Sadhanas!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, Diego <lantax_metanoia> wrote:

>

> Namaste,

> I am sure the question I am going to raise have appeared in the

List in the past. As a new member I apologize for it.

>

>

>

> From your point of view, what is the main sadhana according to

the "Shankara's map"

[Guest guest]

>From your point of view, what is the main sadhana according to the

"Shankara's map"

 

praNAm prabhuji

Hare Krishna

> Pls. see the ongoing discussion on *spiritual growth*. IMHO, according

to "shankara's map" sAdhana chatushtayam (four fold spiritual practice) is

advised for chitta shuddhi (mental purification). & for realising our true

nature *no sAdhana* specified as it is already self-established. Other

learned members of this list may kindly throw more light on this.

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Diego!

 

Welcome. You asked:

>From your point of view, what is the main sadhana

>according to the "Shankara's map"

 

As Sri Ram says, Shankara and the Gita and Upansihads are the

ultimate sources of guidance for Advaita. However, there is no doubt

that the modern sage Nisargadatta is very highly respected, way up

there with Ramama Maharshi. Both are extremely clear and authentic.

Nisargadatta has the great advantage that a generous collection of

his sayings are presented for free in a well-organized format at

 

http://www.nonduality.com/asmi.htm

 

In particular, Chapter 8 deals with your question. You may be

surprised to learn that it is what you DON'T do that matters more

than what you do. The objective is realization of what we already

ARE, not the aquisition of what we are not. The chief culprit is the

mind, which must be silenced. Nothing can substitute for reading

this excellent book (i.e. website), but here is a selection of quotes

to get you going.

 

 

 

CHAPTER 8.

THE WAY TO REALIZATION

 

Not through activity. No effort is necessary, but there is a

precondition: earnestness now.

 

 

Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow

all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to

calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy

all the time. Stop it, and just be. If you give it rest, it will

settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking

makes it decay. (311)

 

Nothing you do will change you, for you need no change. You may

change your mind or your body, but it is always something external to

you that has changed, not yourself. Why bother at all to change?

Realize once for all that neither your body nor your mind, nor even

your consciousness is yourself and stand alone in your true nature

beyond consciousness and unconsciousness. No effort can take you

there, only the clarity of understanding. (520)

 

Don't try to reform yourself, just see the futility of all change.

The changeful keeps on changing while the changeless is waiting. Do

not expect the changeful to take you to the changeless - it can never

happen. Only when the very idea of changing is seen as false and

abandoned, the changeless can come into its own. (521)

 

The self-styled gurus talk of ripeness and effort, of merits and

achievements, of destiny and grace; all these are mere mental

formations, projections of an addicted mind. Instead of helping, they

obstruct. (422)

 

It is not what you do, but what you stop doing that matters. (483)

 

Your mind is steeped in the habits of evaluation and acquisition, and

will not admit that the incomparable and unobtainable are waiting

timelessly within your own heart for recognition. All you have to do

is to abandon all memories and expectations. Just keep yourself ready

in utter nakedness and nothingness. (498-9)

 

[P.S. I will RESIST the temptation to draw a comparison between that

last word 'nothingness' and 'emptiness'. Old members will understand

the joke. :-)]

 

Do nothing, just be. In being all happens naturally. (227)

 

You can do nothing. What time has brought about, time will take away.

This is the end of yoga, to realize independence. All that happens,

happens in and to the mind, not to the source of the 'I am'. Once you

realize that all happens by itself (call it destiny, or the will of

God, or mere accident), you remain as witness only, understanding and

enjoying, but not perturbed. You are responsible only for what you

can change. All you can change is only your attitude. There lies your

responsibility. (451)

 

Life itself is desireless. But the false self wants to continue -

pleasantly. Therefore, it is always engaged in ensuring one's

continuity. Life is unafraid and free. As long as you have the idea

of influencing events, liberation is not for you: the very notion of

doership, of being a cause, is bondage. (298)

 

[Now that sounds very much like the Gita. Nisargadatta is not a

revolutionary!]

 

There is no place for effort in reality. It is selfishness, due to

self-identification with the body, that is the main problem and the

cause of other problems. And selfishness cannot be removed by effort,

only by clear insight into its causes and effects. Effort is a sign

of conflict between incompatible desires. They should be seen as they

are - then only they dissolve. (476)

 

Abandon every attempt, just be; don't strive, don't struggle, let go

of every support, hold on to the blind sense of being, brushing off

all else. This is enough. (494)

 

A quiet mind is all you need. All else will happen rightly, once your

mind is quiet. As the sun on rising makes the world active, so does

self-awareness affect changes in the mind. In the light of calm and

steady self-awareness, inner energies wake up and work miracles

without any effort on your part. (311)

 

I can describe the supreme, natural state] only by negation, as

uncaused, independent, unrelated, undivided, uncomposed, unshakable,

unquestionable, unreachable by effort. (16)

 

[Again, no references to emptiness will be offered!!! You are most welcome.]

 

Once you realize that the body depends on the mind, and the mind on

consciousness, and consciousness on awareness, and not the other way

round, your question about waiting for self-realization till you die

is answered. It is not that you must be free from the 'I-am-the-body'

idea first, and then realize the self. It is definitely the other way

round - you cling to the false because you do not know the true.

Earnestness, not perfection, is a precondition to self-realization.

Virtues and powers come with realization, not before. (434)

 

You must find your own way. Unless you find it yourself, it will not

be your own way and will take you nowhere. Earnestly live your truth

as you have found it, act on the little you have understood. It is

earnestness that will take you through, not cleverness - your own or

another's. (499)

 

I could go on and on. I like this sage so much I can hardly resist.

But as I said, you must bookmark the URL above and USE it. There is

much, much more.

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Benjamin:

 

We all have great respect for both Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana

Maharishi for their clarity and authenticity. At the same time we do

need to recognize that the question was very specific

about 'Sankara's map.' I find this question is quite important and I

request our senior members Sri Sadananda and ProfVK to throw more

light on this important question.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

>

> ...

> However, there is no doubt

> that the modern sage Nisargadatta is very highly respected, way up

> there with Ramama Maharshi. Both are extremely clear and

> authentic.

> Nisargadatta has the great advantage that a generous collection of

> his sayings are presented for free in a well-organized format at

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste

>We all have great respect for both Nisargadatta Maharaj

>and Ramana Maharishi for their clarity and authenticity.

>At the same time we do need to recognize that the question

>was very specific about 'Sankara's map.' I find this question

>is quite important and I request our senior members Sri Sadananda

>and ProfVK to throw more light on this important question.

 

 

Your message is difficult to interpret precisely. Are you saying

that my contribution was irrelevant and should not have been made?

Or are you saying that it would be nice to have Sadananda's and

ProfVK's contributions in addition to mine? Please clarify, so that

we may all get a better feeling for how this list is supposed to

operate.

 

Thank you

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Benjamin:

 

Yes, I am only saying that Sri Sadananda and ProfVK can throw more

light on this important question and hence it is nice to have their

contributions. I received requests from several other members that

they want to get more insights on this important question.

 

I was searching for a good topic for July discussion. It seems that

we got one - "Shankara's roadmap to Self-realization." I know that

this is one of the favorite topics of Sri Sadananda and hopefully he

will agree to be the coordinator for this topic.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

> Or are you saying that it would be nice to have Sadananda's and

> ProfVK's contributions in addition to mine? Please clarify, so

that

> we may all get a better feeling for how this list is supposed to

> operate.

[Guest guest]

Shree Diego

 

Welcome to the list.

 

Sadhana involves an effort. and there there is sadhana and saadhya and

saadhaka - that a goal to reach - saadhya, and the one who is doing the

sadhana - saadhaka and the means to rech - sadhana.

 

If the truth is the eternal and ever existent and all pervading -

brahman and you are that brahman, in principle the sadhya the goal is

not of the type 'praaptasya praptam' that is, gaining that which we do

not have. It is of the type gaining that we already have and in

principle there is no need of any saadhana. In that case I would not ask

the question either. Since I am still searching for it even though I

already have 'it', it only means I donot know that I have it. Hence

ignorance is the root cause for my search. Ignorance cannot be removed

by any action or sadhana. It can be only removed by knowledge. But for

that, mind should be ready to recieve the knowledge. If I have

preconceived notions about myself and the world and the God, then those

very preconceived notions become building blocks obstructing any true

knowledge. The only way to get rid of these is by yoga- by yoking the

mind. The whole Bhagavat geeta is yogashaastra or science of yogo and

Shankara has written commentary on it. Hence since your question

pertains to shakara's map - that is discussed extentively in his

commentary on Geeta. The same was discussed in a conndensed worses by

Bhagavaan Ramanamaharshi in his upadesa saara. Rmana also has provided

selected slokas of Geeta (about 100 of them) which he thought are

important.

 

Nisargadatta Maharaj book 'I am that' is mostly centered on the j~naana

and I would recommend that only for contemplative students who has the

mind ready to inquire. It is actually a meditative book. If ones mind

is not available for meditation and does not know what or how to

meditate, first thing to do is prepare the mind for meditation - and

that is the essence of any saadhana.

 

In brief the sadhana involves karma yoga- bhakti yogo and j~naana yoga -

Ultimately dhyaana or meditations along the direction pointed out by

vedanta.

 

Scriputure has to heard from a teacher, reflected on what has been heard

with full faith, and contemplate on the truth expounded by the

scriptures. All are involved in the sadhana.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

--- Diego <lantax_metanoia wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

>

>

> I am sure the question I am going to raise have appeared in the List

> in the past. As a new member I apologize for it.

>

>

>

> From your point of view, what is the main sadhana according to the

> "Shankara’s map"

>

>

>

> Love from Spain

>

>

>

> Diego

>

>

>

>

> Messenger

> Nueva versión: Super Webcam, voz, caritas animadas, y

> más #161;Gratis!

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Just correction:

--- kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:

> sadhya the goal is

> not of the type 'praaptasya praptam'

should say here 'apraaptasya praaptam'- gainging what I donot have.

 

I can blame the typist for the mistake.

 

Hari OM!

sadananda

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sadananda,

 

Thank your for your post. Mi question was raised in the line of your

answer. According to my insight, there is nothing to gain,..."I AM

THAT", as you said. From my point of view, the "main sadhana" is to

pay attention only to the sense of Beingness (i apologize again for

my bad english. I don't know if it is the right expression) and not

take into account any objects what appears in the Consciousness.

 

Om¡

 

Diego

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sadanandaji !

>Nisargadatta Maharaj book 'I am that' is mostly centered

>on the j~naana and I would recommend that only for

>contemplative students who has the mind ready to inquire.

>It is actually a meditative book. If ones mind is not

>available for meditation and does not know what or how to

>meditate, first thing to do is prepare the mind for meditation

>- and that is the essence of any saadhana.

 

 

Not to argue, sir, but how about the following thought. Perhaps

anybody can enter via Nisargadatta's 'meditative' path by simply

surrendering to awareness. As Nisargadatta said, sincerity and

persistence may be the only requisites. Perhaps by simply and

repeatedly 'letting go' of thoughts, identifications, discriminations

and so forth, the meditation state will slowly but surely grow, like

a tree, regardless of our preparation.

 

In a similar vein, Ramana once said that even the worst sinner could

be a saint if he simply believes he is Brahman. Or if he simply sees

God everywhere.

 

This may seem too simplistic, and I do agree that the 'direct path'

can be misunderstood as an easy path. What is not so easy is to

learn to truly surrender. But is 'effortful' practice any easier or

quicker than simply learning to relax into awareness and surrender?

As Nisargadatta says in Chapter 8 of 'I AM THAT' from which I quoted

previously, we need to make great efforts only to learn that effort

is useless and only awareness allows consciousness to blossom.

Perhaps we can short-circuit that tedious process with faith,

sincerity and patience.

 

Just some musings...

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

-

"kuntimaddi sadananda" <kuntimaddisada

"Hence ignorance is the root cause for my search. Ignorance cannot be

removed

> by any action or sadhana. It can be only removed by knowledge. But for

> that, mind should be ready to recieve the knowledge. "

 

Excerpt from "aparokshaanubuudhi" of Sri Sankaraacharya

Translation by Swami Vimuktananda, Advaita Ashrama.

 

 

3. The four preliminary qualifications (the means to the attainment of

knowledge), such as Vairaagya (dispassion) and the like, are acquired by men

by propitiating Hari (the Lord), through austerities and the performance of

duties pertaining to their social order and stage in life.

 

 

4. The indifference with which one treats the excreta of a crow - such an

indifference to all objects of enjoyment from the realm of Brahma to this

world (in view of their perishable nature), is called pure "Vairaagya".

 

 

5. Aatman (the seer) in itself is alone permanent, the seen is opposed to it

(ie, transient) - such a settled conviction is truly known as "Viveka"

(discrimination).

 

 

6. Abandonment of desires at all times is called "Sama" and the restraint of

the external functions of the organs is called "Dama".

 

 

7. Turning away completely from all sense-objects is the height of

"Uparati", and patient endurance of all sorrow or pain is known as

"Titikshaa" which is conducive to happiness.

(Note: Sama and Dama involves effort; Uparati is natural with no efforts)

 

 

8. Implicit faith in the words of the Veda-s and the teachers (who interpret

them) is known as "Sraddha", and the concentration of the mind on the only

object Sat (ie Brahman) is regarded as "Samaadhaana".

 

 

9. When and how shall I, O Lord, be free from the bonds of this world (ie

births and deaths) - such a burning desire is called "Mumukshutaa".

 

 

10. Only that person who is in possession of the said qualifications (as

means to knowledge) should constantly reflect with a view to attaining

Knowledge, desiring his own good.

 

 

11. Knowledge is not brought about by any other means than Vichaara

(enquiry), just as an object is nowhere perceived (seen) without the help of

light.

 

 

 

Why quote Descartes and the like when we have the teachings of the greatest

philosopher who walked on this earth?

[Guest guest]

--- lantax_metanoia <lantax_metanoia wrote:

> Namaste Sadananda,

>

> Thank your for your post. Mi question was raised in the line of your

> answer. According to my insight, there is nothing to gain,..."I AM

> THAT", as you said. From my point of view, the "main sadhana" is to

> pay attention only to the sense of Beingness (i apologize again for

> my bad english. I don't know if it is the right expression) and not

> take into account any objects what appears in the Consciousness.

>

> Om¡

>

> Diego

 

 

Yes you are right. But in order 'not to take account' one needs a high

degree of detachment - that is what is specified as vairagya - as

qualification for a saadhaka.

 

But also remember - Life is beautiful game if we know how to play

properly. There is nothing wrong in the play since it is fun. There the

playing itself is the fun part not result of the play. When I am acting

the roles of a father, husband, employee, friend or citizen etc. these

roles can be played very efficiently and the roles will have problmes

and there is no problme in if the roles have the problme. That is what

the drama of life is about - if no role has any problem it is be a very

boring drama. But that is fun only if if I know I am actor playing the

role. But if I forget who I am and take the role very seriously then

the problems of the role become my problme - That is what is adhyaasa -

or superimposing roles problme unnecessarily on myself. And that is THe

PROBLEM. Hence in order to play the roles properly a degree of

detachment is needed to keep remainding myself that I am an actor and

not the role per sec. That is the meditation. Until I am firmly

convinced myself that I am an achtor and not the role, then the problem

is solved. Yoga helps mind to get detached so that I can get fresh look

at the problem. When the teacher says you are that actor and not the

role- tat tvam asi - the knowledge will sink in. Hence purpose of the

sadhana is to purify the mind. All yogos essentially does that.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

--- Benjamin Root <orion777ben wrote:

>

> Not to argue, sir, but how about the following thought. Perhaps

> anybody can enter via Nisargadatta's 'meditative' path by simply

> surrendering to awareness. As Nisargadatta said, sincerity and

> persistence may be the only requisites. Perhaps by simply and

> repeatedly 'letting go' of thoughts, identifications, discriminations

> and so forth, the meditation state will slowly but surely grow, like

> a tree, regardless of our preparation.

 

Benjamin,

 

I think you were absent when I covered the first part of Upadesa saara

of Bhagavaan Ramana where he gives upadesa or advise to a seeker. He

covers all other yoga-s before he takes the student to meditation.

 

I use an example that I learned - it is called 'sapta vada nyaaya' -

you can equate to 'sapta donut nyaaya' if you want. That is 'the logic

of seven donuts or vada-s'

 

There were two guys long time ago went to Madras for business and they

were told they could get food to eat at local restaurant. They both

went in and the restaurant was about to close. They said they are hungry

and wanted to know if there is anything to fill their stomachs. The

sever said they have VADA only. They found out that VADA costs $1/-. The

server brought one plate for each. One fellow after finishing one plate

said he was still hungry and wanted VADA. Server brought another plate

and like that he eat seven plates. His friend stopped with one plate.

The server gave two bills for one seven dollars and the other one

dollar. The fellow who had seven-dollar bill become very angry. He

argued - why he should pay seven dollars while his friend has to pay

only one dollar. The server politely said - sir you eat seven VADA's

and therefore you have to pay seven dollars. The customer was even

angrier. He said "We came and told that we were hungry and you said you

have VADA to remove our hunger and said it casts only one dollar. You

unnecessarily brought six VADA's which did not do their job and kept me

busy eating those useless VADAs - Only you brought the right VADA the

seventh time and that was the fulfilling VADA that removed my hunger.

You could have brought the seventh VADA, the first time itself. While

you brought that efficacious VADA first time itself for my friend. In

fact I should charge you for keeping busy eating that useless six

VADA's. It is your fault.

 

The seventh VADA is fulfilling only because it has the qualification of

being followed by earlier six VADAs. Upon enquiry, it was discovered

that his friend had his six VADAs at home itself before they started and

therefore one VADA was enough to appease his hunger.

 

Now my friend Benjamin, What is the correct saadhana depends on how many

VADAs you already had in the earlier place or earlier life! In order for

the mind to contemplate, it should have a degree of detachment and that

is what Shankara says in terms of four fold qualifications of a student.

If your mind is already prepared and ready to do meditation - which

obviously involves an enquiry, by all means what you say is right. If

one start complaining that I am unable to meditate, then problem is one

needs background six VADA's.

 

In the 6th ch. of Geeta - Arjuna asked - what happens to a yogi who died

after spending his whole his life in doing Saadhana and meditation and

did not realize before he died. - he neither enjoyed this life

(enjoyment being sensuous enjoyment) nor he gained the highest -His

whole life is wasted. For that Krishna answers - nothing or no saadhana

will be a waste. He will be born in a family or in an environment that

will take him rapidly towards the path. Now if you examine the life of

Nisargadatta maharaja, in just 3 years he realized - Bhagavan Ramana

went straight into deep meditation in the very first few attempts. If

you read 'autobiography of a yogi' you can read varieties of stories of

sages each had different histories. All that shows that each had eaten

different no of VADAs in their previous lives. That is why in Hinduism

we have no one way and one path. Religious tolerance also comes because

of that recognition. Path depends on where one is even though the goal

ultimately is the same. All riviers ultimately reach ocean but each

taking it own path. There are no direct paths and curvilinear paths. All

paths are as valid as any if it helps the saadhak to sit in the seat of

meditation and able to inquire using the guidance of a teacher or the

scripture. A right teacher is the one who directly his disciples to the

scriptures as pramaaNa. Since this is subjective science and scripture

provides more objectifiable norm to check the milestones to see one is

proceeding towards the goal. That is the essence of yoga shaashtra -

science of yoga.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

>

> Just some musings...

>

> Om!

> Benjamin

>

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ranjeet

>Why quote Descartes and the like when we have the

>teachings of the greatest philosopher who walked

>on this earth?

 

Shankara was certainly one of the greatest philosophers, as well as a

great 'mystic' (or seer or rishi). Your devotion to him can be put

to good use by absorbing his wisdom as a bee drinks honey from a

flower. You will surely make much progress.

 

But one of the rumors that endeared me to Indian culture was its

supposed open-mindedness to ideas from all over the world, while

never losing its spiritual compass of Sanatana Dharma. I strongly

urge you to take delight when the truth reflects itself to some

degree or another in thinkers all over the world. Parochialism is

not only contrary to the true Indian spirit, but it can also impede

spiritual growth.

 

For example, what Descartes said was true and has been misunderstood.

'I think therefore I am'. The 'I think' is not necessarily

conceptual thought; it can be taken as simple awareness. It is the

same thing Sadanandaji has repeated many times: we cannot deny the 'I

am'. This is the fundamental 'fact' of life, if you want to call it

that.

 

That is why I pushed Buddhism for a while on this list, perhaps too

much. My feeling was that if Hindus couldn't take delight in a

kindred spirit from its own soil (while recognizing the minor

differences), then how would they open their heart to what all

humanity has to offer, which is considerable? For example, a certain

medieval Christian mystic named Meister Eckhart, who knew nothing of

Shankara, said remarkably similar things. This should be a cause for

amazement and joy.

 

There is a revival going on in the Hindu world after 10 centuries of

Muslim and British domination. Sometimes it is healthy and vigorous,

and sometimes it gets a bit too militant. (However, I feel it is

better to err on the side of healthy self-defense than on the side of

too much ahimsa, which has been seriously misunderstood. Cf. BG.)

At any rate, whether you become pacifist or not, it is essential

always to retain an open-mind. I feel quite sure that spiritual

progress is impossible without it.

 

The ultimate truth is much more subtle that any words of any

philosopher. Even the best of them provide only a partial view, due

to the limitation of language. The best of them admit this.

 

Respectfully,

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Benjamin said:

"My feeling was that if Hindus couldn't take delight in a

kindred spirit from its own soil (while recognizing the minor

differences), then how would they open their heart to what all

humanity has to offer, which is considerable? For example, a certain

medieval Christian mystic named Meister Eckhart, who knew nothing of

Shankara, said remarkably similar things. This should be a cause for

amazement and joy."

 

Namaste Benjamin,

 

I couldn't agree more (not only previous sentence but all you said in

the past post). Thank your for your posts and open mind.

 

Love

 

Diego

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

In Shankara's roadmap, Grace is an integral part and without Grace,

Shankara says there can be no Self-realization. Everything that we

have is due to Grace including the very desire to write about Grace.

Grace is integrated within human dharma - knowing one's strength and

apply it most efficiently to benefit everyone. Human dharma also

includes knowing the rules of nature and giving due respect all

beings. Human dharma demands one to act appropriately and stop anyone

else trying to break the rules. It is Grace that maintains the nature

in order and in balance.

 

Human being is a strange creature - the combination of Atman

(infinite soul without attributes) and body- mind- intellect (finite

physical attributes). Our overindulging attention on body, mind and

intellect is the cause for the blurred vision of Atman. We need His

grace to discard those illusionary perceptions of body, mind and

intellect to correct our vision. Due to His grace we are able to

recognize the vision problem and will get the necessary remedy. Grace

is essentially a gift from Him and that too without asking! God

bestows it freely for ever without a formal request from us.

 

What is Grace? Grace is the recognition of who we are and what is

our role in the society. Grace always resides within our heart, the

only thing that we need to do is to open our heart. More we open the

heart, more of Grace we can see. For example, positive mental

attitude is always in our heart and it is up to us see it and use it.

It seems that we just hide the gifts of Grace and avoid sharing with

others. Goodness, kindness, compassion, spontaneity, etc. are also

due to Grace and they are permanently stored within the heart in

abundant quantities. Whenever we witness an act of kindness or

compassion, Grace becomes visible! Those who want to recognize His

Grace should share the stored treasures with others. Grace and Self

are inseparable and recognition of one leads to the other!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: In Ramayana, Sage Valmiki requests the services of Lord Ram to

destroy the evils and help the sages to complete their Yagna. With

great hesitation King Dasratha sends Ram and Lakshmana to Valmiki's

Ashram. The rishis of the Ashram heard about Sri Ram's arrival,

everyone wanted Sri Ram to stay with them. Tulasidas beautifully

describes where Sri Ram would love to stay. He says that Lord Ram

always resides in hearts that are pure where there is plenty of

kindness, compassion and all goodness. Tulasidas's message is crystal

clear - Lord doesn't need any special accommodation to stay but he

stays permanently in everyone's hearts but with Grace, we can

recognize his presence!

[Guest guest]

praNAm prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I've couple of questions prabhuji.

 

 

In Shankara's roadmap, Grace is an integral part and without Grace,

Shankara says there can be no Self-realization.

> prabhuji can I have the reference for *role of grace/daya* from his

prasthAna trayi bhAshyAs prabhuji. As we know, shankara categorically says

in sUtra bhAshya that shAstras remove the idea of one's being a

transmigratory soul imagined by avidyA & reveal one's nature as the

eternally free Atman, no blemish of impermanence can be attached to

release. Hence the bondage of suffering as the result of ajnAna & release

as the result of right knowledge (Atma jnAna) gained from the teaching of

the upaniShads. Can we replace the word *grace* with *Atma jnAna*

prabhuji, pls. clarify.

 

In Ramayana, Sage Valmiki requests the services of Lord Ram to

destroy the evils and help

> I think it is Sage viSvAmitra pls. clarify.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Ram!

>In Shankara's roadmap, Grace is an integral part and without

>Grace, Shankara says there can be no Self-realization.

>Everything that we have is due to Grace including the very

>desire to write about Grace.

>Grace is essentially a gift from Him and that too without asking!

>God bestows it freely for ever without a formal request from us.

>Grace always resides within our heart, the only thing that we need

>to do is to open our heart...

 

Somehow I get the feeling that you really want us to stick to the

topic of 'Shankara's roadmap for spiritual progress'! Perhaps it is

just my imagination, but it does seem that way. A vague impression

perhaps.

 

So we list members should respectfully cooperate. Yet there is a

complication: Everything is interrelated. What you say above on

grace immediately triggers questions regarding free-will in my mind.

That was a previous month's topic. Yet it seems to me to go to the

heart of this quote.

 

Specifically, we may need grace to be able to truly 'open our heart'

to grace, or even to wish to, or to have faith that doing so is of

any use. We may need grace to have even the slightest sincere

aspiration to the spiritual path. We may need grace to desire grace.

Can a 'vulgar' soul desire grace? Is the concept relevant to him?

 

Actually, this is consistent with what I said before regarding

free-will. I have no doubt that once we sincerely accept grace, then

spiritual progress is guaranteed. But the real trick is to be

predisposed to the sincere acceptance of grace. How does this arise?

By grace? If so, then absolutely everything proceeds according to

grace, i.e. according to His will. This is the kind of determinism I

was talking about earlier, which I believe is probably true, and

which seems to preclude free-will in any truly meaningful sense.

 

This is not to be argumentative. I am just presenting my honest

reaction to your message, for what it is worth. I hope it is of some

benefit to the list. At least, I hope I am making some progress at

focusing on the topic you wish us to focus on!

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

--- Benjamin Root <orion777ben wrote:

...

>

> Somehow I get the feeling that you really want us to stick to the

> topic of 'Shankara's roadmap for spiritual progress'! Perhaps it is

> just my imagination, but it does seem that way. A vague impression

> perhaps.

 

Benjamin - Please look at the original question asked without side

tracking it- the question pertains to what is the sadhana road map

according to Shankara advaita- is it not?

 

Even Ramana who emphasizes the enquiry, says in his upadesa saara

eeswaraarpitam nechchayaakritam

chitta sodhakam mukti saadhakam|

 

Action that is offered to the Lord or eeswara and performed without

longing for results - that is essentially karma yoga - purifies the mind

and prepares the mind as a helpful means for the liberation.

 

aham brahmaasmi is the goal, and the knowledge is essental since one

canot become brahma or infiniteness unless one already is. But that

self-existent fact is not so self-evident for the mind that looks at

duality and think that is real - Hence 'chitta sudhhi' or purification

of the mind (remember mind become dirty by will only and by will

purification occurs - that is sadhana - purification is puting soap to

clean the dirty mind dish ) in the process the soap and the dirt is

removed to leave the mind in its pure state. That is the sadhana and

that is the central quesion that was raised- not the nature of reality

and commonality of advaita and Buddhism. However much you are exicited

about that commonality, that is not the answer that question demands. It

specifically relates to sadhana role or road map in Shankara's advaita

philosophy.

 

And that my friend, is beyond American, Indian or English English.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

 

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

 

 

 

SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

http://sbc.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Prabhuji:

 

One of the goal of the foruum is help members to correct their errors

through exchanges and I am glad to read your post. I gracefully

acknowledge my (atleast) two errors and let me thank you for bringing

them to my attention.

 

I should have stated that "Shankara implies that without grace, there

can be no self-realization" instead of the statement "Shankara says

there can be no self-realization." This is only based on my

observation of various works of Shankara. As I have stated both Grace

and Self are just experiences and they occur simultaneously! It

should be also pointed out that both the Grace and the Brahman (Self)

are recognized to be important by advaita, visitadvaita and dwaita.

What you are referring as 'atmajnana' is impossible without Grace

(ofcourse with the proper understanding that Grace is not external

but internal!)

 

Though my mind my was saying, Sage Viswamitra, it seems my hand was

typing the name of Sage Valmiki, the author of Ramayana.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> praNAm prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> I've couple of questions prabhuji.

>

>

> In Shankara's roadmap, Grace is an integral part and without Grace,

> Shankara says there can be no Self-realization.

>

> > prabhuji can I have the reference for *role of grace/daya* from

his

> prasthAna trayi bhAshyAs prabhuji. As we know, shankara

categorically says

> in sUtra bhAshya that shAstras remove the idea of one's being a

> transmigratory soul imagined by avidyA & reveal one's nature as the

> eternally free Atman, no blemish of impermanence can be attached to

> release. Hence the bondage of suffering as the result of ajnAna &

release

> as the result of right knowledge (Atma jnAna) gained from the

teaching of

>

[Guest guest]

" -

Benjamin Root

Namaste Ranjeet

>Why quote Descartes and the like when we have the

>teachings of the greatest philosopher who walked

>on this earth?

 

Shankara was certainly one of the greatest philosophers, as well as a

great 'mystic' (or seer or rishi). Your devotion to him can be put

to good use by absorbing his wisdom as a bee drinks honey from a

flower. You will surely make much progress.

 

But one of the rumors that endeared me to Indian culture was its

supposed open-mindedness to ideas from all over the world, while

never losing its spiritual compass of Sanatana Dharma. I strongly

urge you to take delight when the truth reflects itself to some

degree or another in thinkers all over the world. Parochialism is

not only contrary to the true Indian spirit, but it can also impede

spiritual growth."

 

Namaste Benjaminji,

 

My mother asked me to buy some rice from our nearby market. On the way to the

market I saw a festival going on. I saw many shops displaying all their flashy

goods. I went inside all the shops one by one. The things displayed in the shops

were so amusing that I didnt notice the passing time. I stayed there in the

festival roaming around until all the shops started closing at the end of the

day. At that time the rice-thought came to my mind and I ran to the market. But

by the time I reached there, the market was closed and I had to return home

empty handed...

 

I knew I had to buy rice and I knew exactly where I will get it...I wish I

didnt stop to see the diversions..Oh Lord, if this prayer shows my parochial

attitude, then let it be...

 

[PS: by the way, our market (Sankaraacharya's path) is open 24 hrs..you can

check in any time :-) ]

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sadanandaji!

 

--- Benjamin Root <orion777ben wrote:..

>>

>> Somehow I get the feeling that you really want us to stick to the

>> topic of 'Shankara's roadmap for spiritual progress'! Perhaps it is

>> just my imagination, but it does seem that way. A vague impression

>> perhaps.

>

>Benjamin - Please look at the original question asked without side

>tracking it - the question pertains to what is the sadhana road map

>according to Shankara advaita - is it not?

 

I absolutely agree. We must stick to the topic. That is why my next

sentence was

>So we list members should respectfully cooperate.

 

The previous paragraph was simply an attempt to add a touch of

light-hearted humor to my acquiescence. That is why there is the

'' after it.

 

The rest of my message was in direct response to Sri Ram's quote. I

would love your thoughts about my thoughts regarding Sri Ram's quote.

 

At any rate, I fully concur with the moderator's attempt to focus the

list. That would be a great way to get somewhere instead of going

around in circles.

 

Though I might add, the going around in circles has not been such a

waste after all. Many interesting things were said by all list

members, and most of it in some way related to Advaita. You should

see how silly some other lists get. WE are still one of the best, if

not the best. But let us get focused!!!!

 

Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...>

wrote:

> Namaste,

>

> In Shankara's roadmap, Grace is an integral part and without Grace,

> Shankara says there can be no Self-realization. Everything that we

> have is due to Grace including the very desire to write about

Grace.

 

Namaste,

 

Good karma is called 'Grace'........ONS...Tony.