Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 Namaste all, I suspect that this rather odd mail will have Sunder riding to my rescue. I have been preparing a study day for some friends who wanted to look at 'I am' sayings in various traditions....there is an excellent 'Mountain Path'(1992) article on this subject that is on the web. These people coming all have an interest in advaitin teachings. My own studies into the Vedic and Vedantin aspects of 'I am' have introduced me to new topics as well as extensions to the background of others. In the latter case, my pesent questions have arisen from the famous 'Two birds' in the Mundaka and Svetasvatara Upanishads. I had recently found the background to these in the fuller image in RgVeda I.164.20-22 and had been intrigued by the reference to the Father in verse 22. This led me to attempt a translation of the Sanskrit and hence began an enquiry into the fig-tree and its sacred place in the context of the Indian environment...also the parallels with the tree of life and knowledge in the Garden of Eden stories. The next step came when I was looking at the 'I am' statements in the Bhagavad Gita. When I read in 10.26 'Among trees I am the holy fig' I looked at the Sanskrit and found aShvatTas. "What has fig trees got to do with horses?" I wondered. Then lo and behold the next verse begins, "Know that I am of horses,Ucchaishravas born of nectar. It was time to get out the dictionary and Monier Williams tells me that aShvatTa means 'under which horses stand' and that Ucchaishravas means 'long-eared and neighing loud' and is the name of Indra's horse. By now all the symbols were getting to me so I searched the net for the text of the story and for some insights. All very interesting but so far only diversions have appeared so I decided to seek help from the members of this site who have a greater understanding of these traditions. I can make my own speculations, but in an advaitin context can anyone please comment on the following: Who is the Father in the Rgvedic hymn and why do the Upanishads omit this aspect of the image? Why does a 'horse' emerge from the churning? Why is it that the name of the fig tree...ficus religiosa'...... used in the Gita has the idea of horses sheltering under its leaves? Why not monkeys, for example? Is it to do with the Sanskrit ucchaiH meaning lofty, high, loud, powerful? In translating the RgVedic hymn I keep coming across possible meanings to do with sound and language. Any thoughts on this? If my questions are too weird and I am best left to my own churning then please ignore the above. Added bit. A sufi master once asked my name and giggled contentedly when told 'Knight'. He asked, 'Do you ride your horse or does your horse ride you?' Upon questioning one of his close aides later that day I asked what he had meant. Apparently the horse represents the ego in the Sufi teaching tales. I have also found this meaning in some stories told in India but cannot make it fit the above questions. Thanks for your attention, Ken Knight SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2003 Report Share Posted July 9, 2003 Namaste, Hope that this ride by a 'Sancho Panza on the donkey' will not deter Ken-ji and others from developing their own insights. M-W's etymology of ashvattha as horses standing under the fig tree is really tilting at windmils!! a = not shvas = tomorrow sthatta = existing a-shva-ttha = unsteady, 'shaken by the winds of desire' (Shankara Bhashya on Katha Upanishad, II:iii:1; it is used in the same manner in Gita 15:1). A similar analogy occurs in Scandinavian mythology: http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7101gita.html "Prof. Ranade, in his Constructive Survey of Upanishadic Philosophy, compares the Ashwattha with the tree Igdrasil in Scandinavian mythology, described in Carlyle's picturesque language in his "Heroes": Its boughs with their buddings and disleafings—events, things suffered, things done, catastrophes—stretch through all lands and times. Is not every leaf of it a biography, every fibre there an act or word? Its boughs are histories of nations. The rustle of it is the noise of human existence, onwards from of old. It grows there, the breath of human passion rustling through it....It is Igdrasil, the Tree of Existence. It is the past, the present and the future; what was done, what is doing, what will be done: the infinite conjugation of the verb to do. " ================================================================== The word pitaram in RigVeda 1:164:22 has been translated by Griffith as Fathe, and by Wilson (transl. of Sayana's Bhashya) as Protector. http://www.srivaishnava.org/scripts/veda/rv/rvbook1.htm 1.164.20 Two birds associated together, and mutual friends, take refuge in the same tree; one of them eats the sweet fig; the other abstaining from food, merely looks on. [Two birds associated together: the vital and supreme spirit, jiva_tma_ and parama_tma_, are here alluded to using the metaphor of the two birds; eats the sweet fig: pippalam sva_du atti: the vital spirit enjoys the rewards of acts. dvau dvau pratis.t.hitau sukr.tau dharmakarta_rau: two species of souls to be intended as abiding in one body (Nirukta 14.30)]. 1.164.21 Where the smooth-gliding (rays), cognizant (of their duty), distil the perpetual portion of ambrosia (water); there has the lord and steadfast protector all beings consigned me, (though) immature (in wisdom). [smooth-gliding: supran.a = supatanah s'obhana gamana ras'mayah, the goers easily or beautifully, the rays of the sun; consigned me: A_ditya has admitted, or admits me, the reciter of the hymn, to the sphere of the sun]. 1.164.22 In the tree into which the smooth-gliding (rays) feeders on the sweet (produce), enter, and again bring forth (light) over all, they have called the fruit sweet, but he partakes not of it who knows not the protector (of the universe). [The tree: the orb or region of the sun; he partakes not of it, who: tan na unna s'ad yah pitaram na veda: pitaram = pa_laka, cherisher, protector; the sun, the supreme spirit]. ================================================================== Vedic symbolism of the horse (which is associated with the Gods Indra, Surya, and Vayu) is given by Sri Aurobindo as the Vital Powers, and the Horse-Sacrifice (Ashvamedha Yajna) as the offering of these to the Supreme (in Vedic Symbolism, by M.P.Pandit, a disciple of Sri Aurobindo.) Regards, Sunder advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote: > Namaste all, > I suspect that this rather odd mail will have Sunder > riding to my rescue. > > > I had recently found the background to these in the > fuller image in RgVeda I.164.20-22 and had been > intrigued by the reference to the Father in verse 22. > This led me to attempt a translation of the Sanskrit > and hence began an enquiry into the fig-tree and its > sacred place in the context of the Indian > environment...also the parallels with the tree of life > and knowledge in the Garden of Eden stories. > > The next step came when I was looking at the 'I am' > statements in the Bhagavad Gita. When I read in 10.26 > 'Among trees I am the holy fig' I looked at the > Sanskrit and found aShvatTas. > "What has fig trees got to do with horses?" I > wondered. Then lo and behold the next verse begins, > "Know that I am of horses,Ucchaishravas born of > nectar. > It was time to get out the dictionary and Monier > Williams tells me that aShvatTa means 'under which > horses stand' and that Ucchaishravas means 'long-eared > and neighing loud' and is the name of Indra's horse. > > By now all the symbols were getting to me so I > searched the net for the text of the story and for > some insights. All very interesting but so far only > diversions have appeared so I decided to seek help > from the members of this site who have a greater > understanding of these traditions. > > > Who is the Father in the Rgvedic hymn and why do the > Upanishads omit this aspect of the image? > Why does a 'horse' emerge from the churning? > Why is it that the name of the fig tree...ficus > religiosa'...... used in the Gita has the idea of > horses sheltering under its leaves? Why not monkeys, > for example? Is it to do with the Sanskrit ucchaiH > meaning lofty, high, loud, powerful? > In translating the RgVedic hymn I keep coming across > possible meanings to do with sound and language. Any > thoughts on this? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 --- Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote: > > Vedic symbolism of the horse (which is associated with the > Gods Indra, Surya, and Vayu) is given by Sri Aurobindo as the Vital > Powers, and the Horse-Sacrifice (Ashvamedha Yajna) as the offering of > these to the Supreme (in Vedic Symbolism, by M.P.Pandit, a disciple > of Sri Aurobindo.) > > > > Regards, > > Sunder > advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote: Extensive discussion of the horse and its sacrifice and the symbolism of both is proved in the first couple of chapters of Bruhadaaranyaka Upanishad and Bhagavat paada Shankara has provided exhustive commentary on it. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2003 Report Share Posted July 10, 2003 Hai all, I know not much about the horses and trees but i can attempt to shed some light on father concept being removed from upanishads. advaita concept itself does not need any creater to create the universe and sustain it since there is only existence of one supreme consciousness without a second. since upanishads describe that the true nature of world or reality is advaita we dont find any concept of father in upanishads. More of this can be understood if you read the nirvanashatkam of adisankaracharya in which he says there is no father to me and no mother and i am shiva whose nature is consciousness(i find no exact word for chit in english) and bliss. regards, phani advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote: > Namaste all, > I suspect that this rather odd mail will have Sunder > riding to my rescue. > > I have been preparing a study day for some friends who > wanted to look at 'I am' sayings in various > traditions....there is an excellent 'Mountain > Path'(1992) article on this subject that is on the > web. These people coming all have an interest in > advaitin teachings. > > My own studies into the Vedic and Vedantin aspects of > 'I am' have introduced me to new topics as well as > extensions to the background of others. > In the latter case, my pesent questions have arisen > from the famous 'Two birds' in the Mundaka and > Svetasvatara Upanishads. > I had recently found the background to these in the > fuller image in RgVeda I.164.20-22 and had been > intrigued by the reference to the Father in verse 22. > This led me to attempt a translation of the Sanskrit > and hence began an enquiry into the fig-tree and its > sacred place in the context of the Indian > environment...also the parallels with the tree of life > and knowledge in the Garden of Eden stories. > > The next step came when I was looking at the 'I am' > statements in the Bhagavad Gita. When I read in 10.26 > 'Among trees I am the holy fig' I looked at the > Sanskrit and found aShvatTas. > "What has fig trees got to do with horses?" I > wondered. Then lo and behold the next verse begins, > "Know that I am of horses,Ucchaishravas born of > nectar. > It was time to get out the dictionary and Monier > Williams tells me that aShvatTa means 'under which > horses stand' and that Ucchaishravas means 'long-eared > and neighing loud' and is the name of Indra's horse. > > By now all the symbols were getting to me so I > searched the net for the text of the story and for > some insights. All very interesting but so far only > diversions have appeared so I decided to seek help > from the members of this site who have a greater > understanding of these traditions. > > I can make my own speculations, but in an advaitin > context can anyone please comment on the following: > > Who is the Father in the Rgvedic hymn and why do the > Upanishads omit this aspect of the image? > Why does a 'horse' emerge from the churning? > Why is it that the name of the fig tree...ficus > religiosa'...... used in the Gita has the idea of > horses sheltering under its leaves? Why not monkeys, > for example? Is it to do with the Sanskrit ucchaiH > meaning lofty, high, loud, powerful? > In translating the RgVedic hymn I keep coming across > possible meanings to do with sound and language. Any > thoughts on this? > > If my questions are too weird and I am best left to my > own churning then please ignore the above. > > > Added bit. > A sufi master once asked my name and giggled > contentedly when told 'Knight'. He asked, 'Do you > ride your horse or does your horse ride you?' Upon > questioning one of his close aides later that day I > asked what he had meant. > Apparently the horse represents the ego in the Sufi > teaching tales. > I have also found this meaning in some stories told in > India but cannot make it fit the above questions. > > Thanks for your attention, > > Ken Knight > > > > > > > SBC DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! > http://sbc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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