How can I know for sure whom to have faith in?

July 16, 2003

Namaste Sri Benjamin:

First, I want to congratulate Sri Benjamin for his change of heart.

After this new transplantation, it seems that his new heart brought

out the profound question: "How can I know for sure whom to have

faith in?." I want to follow my friend Sri Benjamin and replace my

heart with a similar one like his new heart! (Vedanta need not be dry

all the time, and let us enjoy it with fun!)

Before we begin investigating the Ramana's statement that 'only a

sage knows a sage,' let us begin our inquiry with the following

simple statement: "only a stone can recognize a stone.' Let me

explore further the above posed statement, using my understanding of

the Hindu way of worshiping the Nirguna Brahman in the form

of 'stone.' The more I contemplate on this I recognize the profound

truth behind the reason for representing the temple gods by stone

images.

As spiritual seekers we recognize that the worst (only) obstacles for

our liberation are body, mind and intellect. The stone god has

neither the 'mind' nor the intellect and its body doesn't require

regular maintenance. I believe that all we need to do is to get

transformed into a 'stone.' To develop faith on the 'Self' our

foremost goal is to get rid of the 'self' which is nothing but the

accumulated experiences (Vasanas) influenced by the body, mind and

intellect.

When the devotee stand in front of the stone, he/she gets a

reflection of the witnessing SELF. The devotee pours out the

experiences with the emotions to the Lord in the form of a stone.

The devotee's mind becomes peaceful after getting rid of the stored

experiences and the emotions. The reply from the Lord came in the

most subtlest form - SILENCE! Also the Lord never touches the

physical offerings such as the fruits and sumptuous foods offered to

Him by the devotee. But the faithful devotee truly believes that the

Lord had a taste of everything and treat the returned offerings as

His Prasad! The devotee uses the stone image of the Lord to develop

his faith on the Self to get rid of the ego propelled by the body,

mind and intellect. The devotee gets the wisdom through the profound

message of the Lord in the form of a stone image: "When we learn to

imitate the stone and become a witness by destroying 'doership' we

become a sage and we can that everyone around us is also a sage!"

Regards,

Ram Chandran

Note: I have changed the subject title to reflect the content of this

message. I also want to express my sincere thanks to Sri Sunder for

steering this discussion in the right direction.

advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

wrote:

>

> Regarding the old Advaita vs. Buddhism debate... Your mention of

> Ramana has made me think a bit and has produced a change of heart.

> ........

> Now an interesting question is how a mere unrealized seeker such as

> myself can know for sure whom to have faith in. How can I really

> know? Did not Ramana say that only a sage knows a sage? Yet I do

> have complete faith in Ramana, Nisargadatta, etc.

July 16, 2003

>

> advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben>

Now an interesting question is how a mere unrealized seeker such as

> > myself can know for sure whom to have faith in. How can I really

> > know? Did not Ramana say that only a sage knows a sage? Yet I do

> > have complete faith in Ramana, Nisargadatta, etc.

Shankara addresss this question in VivekachuuDamani.

durlambham trayamevaitad daivaanugraha hetukam|

manushyatvam mumuxutvam mahaapurusha samsrayam||

Birth as human, desire for liberation and association with a great soul,

all these three are indeed very difficult to get. It is only by the

grace of God, that once obtains these.

This is graceful way of saying that - it is the result of one's own good

or noble actions (self-less) actions in the past that propel one to get

these three in the order.

Krishna, in fact, answers in the 6th ch. of Giita in response to

Arjuna's question -"what happens to the seeker who dies without

achievieng his final goal?". Krishna responds that he will be born in a

family or environment that is most conducive to his rapid progress. If

you look at the life of Shankara, Ramana Maharshi or Nisargadatta

maharaj, simple circumstances pushed them to highest pursuits; you

cannot but echo those statements.

Krishna says in Giita - even doing a small amout of self-less service or

karmayogo will have a large beneficial effect (swalpa alpasya dharmasya

....).

In Avadhuuta giita - Dattatreya says - Iswaraanugraha eva pumsaam

advaita vaasana - only by the grace of god one gets a taste for advaita.

So the list members we are all blessed!

Ultimately Benjamin -you will discover the teacher in your heart when

you open up yourself. You recognize that he/she/it was the one that

helped in your spiritual progress. Overwelming gratitude/love cannot but

springout when you discover that source of knowledge. Ultimately it is

your own self that guides you.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

=====

What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.

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July 16, 2003

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <rchandran@c...>

wrote:

> Before we begin investigating the Ramana's statement that 'only a

> sage knows a sage,' let us begin our inquiry with the following

> simple statement: "only a stone can recognize a stone.'

Nameste Sri Ram Chandran,

I bow three times to you.

I have always loved stones, just ordinary stones one finds everywhere.

Now I know why.

lotusaware

July 16, 2003

Namaste Ramji,

>First, I want to congratulate Sri Benjamin for his change of heart.

>After this new transplantation, it seems that his new heart brought

>out the profound question: "How can I know for sure whom to have

>faith in?."

My change of heart had to do with not wanting to worry so much

anymore which doctrine is right (Advaita or Mahayana) but rather in

finding the right individual sages to listen to. I still believe

that the core of Advaita and Mahayana is similar in spirit, but we

will do better to simply listen to someone like Ramana without

putting any label on him.

What you said following this was quite moving. I will never look at

Hindu idols quite the same way again. (And I never had anything

against them ... it is what is in the devotee's mind and heart that

counts.)

But my point was that I DO have faith in Ramana and Nisargadatta.

The fact that I do is a bit of a mystery to me. I think it's a

combination of intuition (a divine gift we all have to some degree of

another) and reason (the considerable intelligence and clarity of

these two gentlemen) and their integrity (no trace of hypocrisy or

deception in their writings or sayings or biography).

Note the importance of intuition. We really cannot settle any

spiritual question by pure reason. But of course the reliability of

our intuition reflects our spiritual level. With sufficient

sincerity, our intuition will slowly guide us in the right direction,

with perhaps some bumps along theway.

Om!

Benjamin

July 17, 2003

Namaste Benjaminji,

Here is a verse from the Vivekachudamani about the qualities of a qualified

teacher on whom we can have total faith or shraddha:

33. The guru should be one who knows the scriptures, is blameless and a

supreme knower of God. He should be at peace in God, tranquil as a fire that

has run out of fuel. He should be a boundless ocean of compassion and the

friend of those who seek his protection.

best regards,

K Kathirasan