Guest guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Namaste. Recall the Note about the organization of the ‘Digest’, from DPDS – 6 or the earlier ones. V. Krishnamurthy ------------------------------- A Digest of Paramacharya’s Discourses on Soundaryalahari - 8 But, though the work begins with the name of Shiva, the ShAkta school will still find in the very name of Shiva itself, the dominance of the feminine Shakti ! In the very word ‘Shiva’ there is the vowel ‘i’ along with the consonant ‘sh’. The vowels ‘I’ (as in ‘feel’) and ‘i’ (as in ‘fit’) are themselves names of ambaal. All consonants are letters pertaining to Shiva and all vowels pertain to Shakti. This is a general rule. In addition the letters ‘I’ and ‘i’ are supposed to be the very forms of ambaal. Just as the actionless immutable brahman has a symbolic praNava or ‘Om’, so also the brahman coupled with Shakti, the kArya-brahman, has a symbolic seed letter called the praNava of Shiva-Shakti. And in that praNava, the letter corresponding to Shakti is ‘I’. There is Vedic authority for this. Also in the ShrI sUkta the form of ambaal as Lakshmi who resides in the heart-lotus is mentioned as manifesting in the vowel ‘I’ and the surrender is made to that manifestation. Note that one of the many sanctities of the word ‘ShrI’ is derived from this. Thus the first word of of the first sloka, though it begins with Shiva is actually a propitiation to the feminine Shakti. For, from the word ‘Shiva’ if we remove the vowel ‘i’ and bring the consonant ‘sh’ to its first position ‘sha’, the word becomes ‘shava’ meaning ‘a dead body’ ! Thus the word ‘shiva’ gets its life from the vowel ‘i’ , which is the seed letter for Shakti. Also note that the popular word for ‘saguNa-brahman’ in Vedanta is ‘Ishwara’, which begins with the sound ‘I’. This is quite in accordance with its role as the dynamic active Lord who takes care of the creation and propels the entire universe. (For those who know the Tamil language here are two more interesting observations: VK) In Tamil the consonants and vowels are known as ‘body-letters’ (mey-ezhuttu) and ‘life-letters’ (uyir-ezhuttu) respectively . So in the praNava of Shiva-Shakti, the Lord corresponds to the ‘body-letter’ and the Goddess corresponds to the ‘life-letter’. And this coordinates with the thought that Shiva is the body and Shakti is the soul. Secondly, in Tamil parlance it is common to say: ‘If you have the power (shakti) to do this, do it; otherwise stay quiet as ‘shiva’ (‘shivane-enRu iru’) ! This again coordinates with the thought that Shiva is the actionless substratum and Shakti is the switch that switches everything into action! Throughout his bhAshyas and all his minor works, our Acharya is never tired of repeating: All worldly activities are mAyA; one should aspire to realise and become the changeless and actionless nirguNa brahman. Thus the immutable Shivam is the object of all his writing and advice. What produces movement out of that brahman was called mAyA by him and he spared no pains to paint that mAyA in uncomplimentary colors and warn us strongly against getting into her clutches. But the very same Acharya, now, in the first sloka of Soundaryalahari, exclaims with great admiration of Shakti (that very same mAyA): Oh, Goddess, without you even Shiva cannot move! How can the same person talk in two contradictory ways like this? Which is true? If one of them is not true, can the Acharya tarnish his name by speaking an untruth? If you look at these things only by logic, you will not get anywhere. The definition of Truth does not come by logic. WHATEVER WILL DO GOOD TO WHOMSOEVER IT IS INTENDED, THAT SHOULD BE STATED LOVINGLY; THAT IS TRUTH (SATYAM). For those who can tread the path of jnAna, he recommended retirement from the world. For those who have yet to evolve to that stage of spiritual maturity, he recommended the path of Bhakti and Karma; this will make them reach the kArya-brahman through worldly actions of work and worship. When one does not have an evolved attitude to a certain path, it is counterproductive to advise him go that path. So it is not a question of being logical; it is a question of seeing the psycho-logical (!) perspective. The ancients called it ‘adhikAri-bheda’, that is, difference in prerequisite qualifications. Secondly, it is not just that he understood the psychology of different types of seekers of spirituality and preached accordingly. It is more. Both the advices he gave, though seemingly opposite, are ‘true’, each at a particular stage of evolution. In the phenomenal world, creation and the universe and the activator of all of them, namely, Ishwara, are all ‘real’ certainly. But when we enquire into the root cause of all this, we find that the more basic Reality is the Existent Self-in-itself that is actionless but through a miraculous magic wand of mAya brings about all this moving world. Thus, when an Acharya or the scripture compares two paths or two objects of worship and speaks of one as the better or greater of the two, it does not always mean that the other thing, that had a lower estimate, is worthless. That which our Acharya talked about as the thing to be discarded, namely, perception of duality, in all his works – that very same thing he now praises to the sky, saying that this is what you have to hold steadfastly in the bhakti-mArga. In one case it is duality, in the other case it is ‘sva-svarUpa-anu-sandhAnaM’ (remaining steadfast in one’s own Self). To be continued. ------------------------------- PraNAms to all advaitins and Devotees of Mother Goddess profvk. ===== Prof. V. Krishnamurthy My website on Science and Spirituality is http://www.geocities.com/profvk/ You can access my book on Gems from the Ocean of Hindu Thought Vision and Practice, and my father R. Visvanatha Sastri's manuscripts from the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 - "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk from Paramacharya's Discourses... "All worldly activities are mAyA; one should aspire to realise and become the changeless and actionless nirguNa brahman. Thus the immutable Shivam is the object of all his writing and advice. What produces movement out of that brahman was called mAyA by him and he spared no pains to paint that mAyA in uncomplimentary colors and warn us strongly against getting into her clutches. But the very same Acharya, now, in the first sloka of Soundaryalahari, exclaims with great admiration of Shakti (that very same mAyA): Oh, Goddess, without you even Shiva cannot move! How can the same person talk in two contradictory ways like this? Which is true? If one of them is not true, can the Acharya tarnish his name by speaking an untruth? If you look at these things only by logic, you will not get anywhere. The definition of Truth does not come by logic. WHATEVER WILL DO GOOD TO WHOMSOEVER IT IS INTENDED, THAT SHOULD BE STATED LOVINGLY; THAT IS TRUTH (SATYAM). " +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Namaste, Sri Krishnamirthyji: I hope you do not mind my posting some beautiful words of Jnaneshvar in conjunction with your recent post on Paramacharya's Discourses above... >From Amritanubhav (The Nectar of Mystical Experience) Chapter One: The Union of Shiva and Shakti by Jnaneshvar I offer obeisance to the God and Goddess, The limitless primal parents of the universe. They are not entirely the same, Nor are they not the same. We cannot say exactly what they are. How sweet is their union! The whole world is too small to contain them, Yet they live happily in the smallest particle. These two are the only ones Who dwell in this home called the universe. When the Master of the house sleeps, The Mistress stays awake, And performs the functions of both. When He awakes, the whole house disappears, And nothing at all is left. Two lutes: one note. Two flowers: one fragrance. Two lamps: one light. Two lips: one word. Two eyes: one sight. These two: one universe. In unity there is little to behold; So She, the mother of abundance, Brought forth the world as play. He takes the role of Witness Out of love of watching Her. But when Her appearance is withdrawn, The role of Witness is abandoned as well. Through Her, He assumes the form of the universe; Without Her, He is left naked. If night and day were to approach the Sun, Both would disappear. In the same way, their duality would vanish If their essential Unity were seen. In fact, the duality of Shiva and Shakti Cannot exist in that primal unitive state >From which AUM emanates. They are like a stream of knowledge >From which a knower cannot drink Unless he gives up himself. Is the sound of AUM divided into three Simple because it contains three letters? Or is the letter 'N' divided into three Because of the three lines by which it is formed? So long as Unity is undisturbed, And a graceful pleasure is thereby derived, Why should not the water find delight In the floral fragrance of its own rippled surface? It is in this manner I bow To the inseparable Shiva and Shakti. A man returns to himself When he awakens from sleep; Likewise, I have perceived the God and Goddess By waking from my ego. When salt dissolves, It becomes one with the ocean; When my ego dissolved, I became one with Shiva and Shakti. _________________________ With Love and Gratitude, Joyce This and other excerpts can be found at http://www.nonduality.com/jnan.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Definition of Truth: As I know, it is THAT WHICH CANNOT BE NEGATED. A quick mail, just to get clarification on definition of Truth With respectful regards to all Mani Lady Joyce <ladyjoy wrote: - "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk from Paramacharya's Discourses... "All worldly activities are mAyA; one should aspire to realise and become the changeless and actionless nirguNa brahman. Thus the immutable Shivam is the object of all his writing and advice. What produces movement out of that brahman was called mAyA by him and he spared no pains to paint that mAyA in uncomplimentary colors and warn us strongly against getting into her clutches. But the very same Acharya, now, in the first sloka of Soundaryalahari, exclaims with great admiration of Shakti (that very same mAyA): Oh, Goddess, without you even Shiva cannot move! How can the same person talk in two contradictory ways like this? Which is true? If one of them is not true, can the Acharya tarnish his name by speaking an untruth? If you look at these things only by logic, you will not get anywhere. The definition of Truth does not come by logic. WHATEVER WILL DO GOOD TO WHOMSOEVER IT IS INTENDED, THAT SHOULD BE STATED LOVINGLY; THAT IS TRUTH (SATYAM). " +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Namaste, Sri Krishnamirthyji: I hope you do not mind my posting some beautiful words of Jnaneshvar in conjunction with your recent post on Paramacharya's Discourses above... >From Amritanubhav (The Nectar of Mystical Experience) Chapter One: The Union of Shiva and Shakti by Jnaneshvar I offer obeisance to the God and Goddess, The limitless primal parents of the universe. They are not entirely the same, Nor are they not the same. We cannot say exactly what they are. How sweet is their union! The whole world is too small to contain them, Yet they live happily in the smallest particle. These two are the only ones Who dwell in this home called the universe. When the Master of the house sleeps, The Mistress stays awake, And performs the functions of both. When He awakes, the whole house disappears, And nothing at all is left. Two lutes: one note. Two flowers: one fragrance. Two lamps: one light. Two lips: one word. Two eyes: one sight. These two: one universe. In unity there is little to behold; So She, the mother of abundance, Brought forth the world as play. He takes the role of Witness Out of love of watching Her. But when Her appearance is withdrawn, The role of Witness is abandoned as well. Through Her, He assumes the form of the universe; Without Her, He is left naked. If night and day were to approach the Sun, Both would disappear. In the same way, their duality would vanish If their essential Unity were seen. In fact, the duality of Shiva and Shakti Cannot exist in that primal unitive state >From which AUM emanates. They are like a stream of knowledge >From which a knower cannot drink Unless he gives up himself. Is the sound of AUM divided into three Simple because it contains three letters? Or is the letter 'N' divided into three Because of the three lines by which it is formed? So long as Unity is undisturbed, And a graceful pleasure is thereby derived, Why should not the water find delight In the floral fragrance of its own rippled surface? It is in this manner I bow To the inseparable Shiva and Shakti. A man returns to himself When he awakens from sleep; Likewise, I have perceived the God and Goddess By waking from my ego. When salt dissolves, It becomes one with the ocean; When my ego dissolved, I became one with Shiva and Shakti. _________________________ With Love and Gratitude, Joyce This and other excerpts can be found at http://www.nonduality.com/jnan.htm Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Namaste Maniji. With reference to Lady Joyce's post in reply to Prof. Krishnamurthy- ji's commenatary and your understanding of Truth, may I say these few words? This may sound like playing with words. Sorry about it. If there is a negation taking place, there is a negator. That negator should then be the Truth as that is the only thing self- evident and beyond which we cannot venture. "That which cannot be negated" is just an academic deduction done through the mind and intellect which all get sidetracked in advaitic search. The feeling that there is a "That which cannot be negated" has locus only on the negator. With the search thus logically zeroing in on the negator - the Truth, there is no definition possible for that Truth as all attempts at definition are concise descriptions done through mind and intellect. Truth is beyond them. If the negator is understood as Shivam, then all that are negated become mAya. The negator then remains without descriptions and definitions apparently projecting mAya - the negated. This brings about an understanding that there is afterall nothing to be negated because all things negated arise from and subside in the negator. Doing away with an urge to negate and accepting all that can be negatged as lIlA is therefore the key to Truth - MAya is then undone. As all women, She loves those who understand Her! She verily is in the negator, Shivam. There is absolutely no differentiation possible between them. Thus, shiva- shaktyayukto or shivashaktyaikya swarUpini - the essence of LalitA sahasranAmAvali and Saundarya Lahari. As an example, in LalitA SahasranAmAvali, Mother is called gaganAntastA - She who pervades space from within it. (This particular name incidentally caught my attention this morning as I was chanting the nAmAvali during a wait for my sandwiches outside a restaurant!) Here She is the unmanifest essence of space and manifest space itself too. If, I, the experiencer of space, is the Unmanifest in it, do I then have to negate manifest space to understand the Unmanifest in it? When I look at the blue sky, therefore, I should spontaneously discern that it is me because the sky cannot be without me. I am everything living and non-living! Isn't that the practical aspect of Soundarya Lahari, LalitA SahasranAmAvali, all the rest of the nAmAvalIs and hymns we chant all the time where "I" (shivam) is eternally (sorry for the temporal sense of the word) united with the Manifest in an unending lIlA!? Kindly note that I am not finding fault with your definition. I am only suggesting that there is no need for a definition as we are dealing with an area where definitions and descriptions fear to tread. Respectful praNAms. Madathil Nair ________________________ In advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > Definition of Truth: As I know, it is THAT WHICH CANNOT BE NEGATED. A quick mail, just to get clarification on definition of Truth > With respectful regards to all > Mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2003 Report Share Posted August 17, 2003 Namaste, Sri Nairji, >From the absolute point of Truth (I may be permitted to say so, because Truth cannot be otherwise), the Truth is “yato vacho nivarthanthe, aprapya manasa saha” and we also have “neti neti”, etc. etc. and all these are just only to recognize that Truth, because it is already “praptham”(obtained) and that is why I think it is Aprapyam for those who have not recognized it. Thank you for taking the trouble of clarifying the point extremely well, and all the play with the words, are only for the unenlightened self to recognize the Truth, which is absolute “I”. Who is to negate what? The negatorhood is equally Mithya as the negated are all Mithyas, manifestation of Brahman or “I”. The only negation which seems to be possible is the negation of “Names” and “Forms”, and that too by a Name and Form, which apparently play all the drama that is going on, without knowing their real Swaroopa, i.e. Sat Chit Anand. I must acknowledge “the blessing” of that Great Maya, as, though for health reasons, I stopped attending classes on Vedanta here for the last more than a year, I have been drawn, without making any effort from my side, to this excellent Group, which really helps me a lot in clearing some of my confusions. Thank you once again all Group members, With kind regards R.S.Mani Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:Namaste Maniji. With reference to Lady Joyce's post in reply to Prof. Krishnamurthy- ji's commenatary and your understanding of Truth, may I say these few words? This may sound like playing with words. Sorry about it. If there is a negation taking place, there is a negator. That negator should then be the Truth as that is the only thing self- evident and beyond which we cannot venture. "That which cannot be negated" is just an academic deduction done through the mind and intellect which all get sidetracked in advaitic search. The feeling that there is a "That which cannot be negated" has locus only on the negator. With the search thus logically zeroing in on the negator - the Truth, there is no definition possible for that Truth as all attempts at definition are concise descriptions done through mind and intellect. Truth is beyond them. If the negator is understood as Shivam, then all that are negated become mAya. The negator then remains without descriptions and definitions apparently projecting mAya - the negated. This brings about an understanding that there is afterall nothing to be negated because all things negated arise from and subside in the negator. Doing away with an urge to negate and accepting all that can be negatged as lIlA is therefore the key to Truth - MAya is then undone. As all women, She loves those who understand Her! She verily is in the negator, Shivam. There is absolutely no differentiation possible between them. Thus, shiva- shaktyayukto or shivashaktyaikya swarUpini - the essence of LalitA sahasranAmAvali and Saundarya Lahari. As an example, in LalitA SahasranAmAvali, Mother is called gaganAntastA - She who pervades space from within it. (This particular name incidentally caught my attention this morning as I was chanting the nAmAvali during a wait for my sandwiches outside a restaurant!) Here She is the unmanifest essence of space and manifest space itself too. If, I, the experiencer of space, is the Unmanifest in it, do I then have to negate manifest space to understand the Unmanifest in it? When I look at the blue sky, therefore, I should spontaneously discern that it is me because the sky cannot be without me. I am everything living and non-living! Isn't that the practical aspect of Soundarya Lahari, LalitA SahasranAmAvali, all the rest of the nAmAvalIs and hymns we chant all the time where "I" (shivam) is eternally (sorry for the temporal sense of the word) united with the Manifest in an unending lIlA!? Kindly note that I am not finding fault with your definition. I am only suggesting that there is no need for a definition as we are dealing with an area where definitions and descriptions fear to tread. Respectful praNAms. Madathil Nair ________________________ In advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > Definition of Truth: As I know, it is THAT WHICH CANNOT BE NEGATED. A quick mail, just to get clarification on definition of Truth > With respectful regards to all > Mani Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthy-ji. In his erudite interpretation of Verse 1, Shri Kandiyur Mahadeva Sastrigal points out the following: (a) The names Shiva and Shakti indicate the first two letters of SrI Vidya shodaSAksharI mantraA. (b) That the first half of the verses has sixteen words also points at the same mantraA. © Besides, the verse also represents MahA Tripurasundari and SrI ChakrA (encompassing the nine yOnIs). (d) Further, it implies and includes pranaVa and the panchAkshara mahAmantra. Shri Kandiyur does not quote the shodaSaksharI mantra in order to discourage its improper use. However, he has provided the yantra for the verse and mentioned the Grace that can result from its proper use and repeated chanting of the verse. I know that these aspects of his interpretation are not of particular interest to the advaitins on this List. However, will you kindly tell us if our Acharya has made any relevant comments in this regard? Also, please mention the shodaSaksharI mantra in order that I can relate it to the letter details provided by Shri Kandiyur and come to grips with his prolific interpretation most of which are beyond my present level of understanding. Sunderji, Bhaskarji and other Members - any references you can quote are also welcome. PraNAms. Madathil Nair ___________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair> wrote: > Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthy-ji. > > In his erudite interpretation of Verse 1, Shri Kandiyur Mahadeva > Sastrigal points out the following: > > (a) The names Shiva and Shakti indicate the first two letters of SrI > Vidya shodaSAksharI mantraA. > > (b) That the first half of the verses has sixteen words also points > at the same mantraA. > > © Besides, the verse also represents MahA Tripurasundari and SrI > ChakrA (encompassing the nine yOnIs). > > (d) Further, it implies and includes pranaVa and the panchAkshara > mahAmantra. > > . However, will you kindly > tell us if our Acharya has made any relevant comments in this > regard? Also, please mention the shodaSaksharI mantra in order that > I can relate it to the letter details provided by Shri Kandiyur and > come to grips with his prolific interpretation most of which are > beyond my present level of understanding.> > Madathil Nair Namaste, Nairji. I am also interested in your questions. But the Paramacharya walks on the edge of a sword and carefully avoids discussion about the mantra and tantra nuances of the stotra. But wherever he even hints about it, I shall pick it up certainly. Thank you for reminding me. PraNAms to all advaitins and Devotees of Mother Goddess. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2003 Report Share Posted August 18, 2003 advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair" <madathilnair> wrote: > - any references you can quote > are also welcome. > Namaste, Judging from the postings at the group, the possibility of trying to understand the inner meaning of this mantra is quite remote if not impossible. / [message # 5380, 1264] This group has many erudite scholars and sri-vidya upasakas who perhaps could correspond with one privately. The great composer Muttuswamy Dikshitar was an initiate in this mantra, and also has a 'kriti' 'describing' it. Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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