Why karma phala-s are not instantaneous

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> praNAm prabhujis

> Hare Krishna

>

> This is a question asked by my friend. I request help from

learned members

> of this group.

>

> why one has to *wait* to reap the fruit of his karma no

> matter it is good or bad!!!

 

Namaste. Bhaskarji. I have read somewhere in one of Paramacharya's

lectures that the fruits of actions come in more or less the same

order in which they are done. Note that we always have the

experience of having good and bad things occur to us in all mixed

sequences. This is because the original actions from which they

spring, maybe in our pUrva janmas, were done in that order. This is

understandable since certainly no one does always good and noble

things only without any mixture of non-good thoughts or actions.

The Paramacharya also says 'atyukaTaiH punya-paapaiH ihaiva phalam-

ashnute', meaning, extreme punya or papa would give the fruits in

this janma itself, without waiting for its position in the queue !.

They jump the queue !

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

>

> why one has to *wait* to reap the fruit of his karma no

> matter it is good or bad!!! For example, if someone cuts another's

hand,

> he should be punished *immediately* according to karma phala nyAya. One

> should not wait many janmAs or many years to reap the fruit of his

*pApa /

> puNya

> kArya-s*. If the karma phala is immediate, my friend thinks there

will be

> no

> crimes, no cheating in the world due to *fear* of instant *shocks* &

> *returns* from the karma being carried out. In addition, why one has to

> carry prarabda karma & suffer coz. of it in subsequent janma-s, when

swarga

> & naraka are there to exhaust our punya/paapa karya phala.

>

> I tried to answer him through prarabda karma, sanchita karma

theories etc.

> I've given him example that even a plant takes its own time to grow, we

> cannot expect result immediately etc.

 

Namste,

 

This theme has been dealt with beautifully under the title :

Fate & Free Will, by Sw. Chandrasekhara Bharati, in a dialogue with a

disciple:

 

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

 

It is worth constant contemplation!

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Bhaskarji and all.

 

Your question is similar to another question. Why is there a

population explosion; where are the new souls coming from?

 

I don't think either can be answered by looking out through the

single window of our current, limited reality.

 

One possible explanation may be that we are simultaneously existing

in several planes living out the results of what we do. We may not

be aware of that as in the current present there is only one

particular small window open to us. There definitely is a lot more

than what we actually see. All such unseen can be termed adriSta

or the unconscious (a la Carl Jung) which hoads us in several

directions.

 

Again, why restrict our view to past and future lives alone? Why

don't we stop seeing time as sequential? The adriSta pervades all

space and time known and unknown. Temporal and spatial restrictions

are valid only when we look out through our currently open window

from where we vainly ask the vain question why retribution for a

particular sin doesn't materialize immediately.

 

In my dreams, despite all my philosophical blabbering and the passage

of several years, I still relive hoading experiences and situations

of my youth. Couple such known experiences with the unknown – don't

we have a huge unseen hellhole lurking behind us and hoading us

interminably?

 

What is required, therefore, to understand the unanswerable, I

believe, is a comprehensive view of the seen and unseen, independent

of the narrow view of birth, death and reibirth comfortably occurring

in a very sequential manner in time which satisfies only the

parameters of a particular small window to reality through which we

happen to be just now looking without choice.

 

Why then worry about crime and punishment in the present?

 

May Mother help us all!

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

namaste.

 

The following is my understanding on this topic.

 

Karma and karma-phala are in vyavahArika and we are trying to

understand how it works.

 

Karma-phala is instantaneous. Karma is not only the actual *doing*

of the karma, but karma originates from the moment the thought

arrives in the mind. While in the present-day judicial system,

only the actual act has a consequence, in the way the karma works,

karma-phala starts accruing right from the moment the thought

has occurred. Thus, in karma-phala, the thought (of karma)

itself is more important than the actual action.

 

The time-scales of karma and karma-phala are not the same. One

life of karma can lead to several crores of lives of karma-phala.

At the same time, one can dissolve karma-phala of several crores

of lives in just one life.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

------

[Guest guest]

bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

praNAm prabhujis

Hare Krishna

 

This is a question asked by my friend. I request help from learned members

of this group.

 

why one has to *wait* to reap the fruit of his karma no

matter it is good or bad!!! For example, if someone cuts another's hand,

he should be punished *immediately* according to karma phala nyAya. One

should not wait many janmAs or many years to reap the fruit of his *pApa /

puNya

kArya-s*. If the karma phala is immediate, my friend thinks there will be

no

crimes, no cheating in the world due to *fear* of instant *shocks* &

*returns* from the karma being carried out. In addition, why one has to

carry prarabda karma & suffer coz. of it in subsequent janma-s, when swarga

& naraka are there to exhaust our punya/paapa karya phala.

 

I tried to answer him through prarabda karma, sanchita karma theories etc.

I've given him example that even a plant takes its own time to grow, we

cannot expect result immediately etc. Since he is not an atheist, finally I

had to take shelter under bhagavad iccha / leela etc. I could not answer

his questions convincingly from his level of understanding. I donot want

to drag him to the advaita zone with loukika & pAramArtika views :-))

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Namaste Bhaskarji

 

fruits of karma can be classified into internal fruits and external fruits.

Internal fruits of karma are birth in a specific species, span of life and

bhoga(experience of pleasure or pain)

 

External fruits are feeling of pleasure or pain that are experienced as

consequences of karmas caused by external favourable or unfavourable events.

 

Let us take an example of a person becoming angry.

The emotion of anger is in accordance with sanskaras of his previous karmas. so

it is the internal fruit.

 

This emotion of anger makes him do the karma of cutting another person's hand.

This karma is also an internal fruit.

 

 

But the reaction he meets (either as a punishment by police or from the person

he hurts who may in turn hurt him or kill him) is an example of external fruit.

It is not a direct fruit (internal fruit) of individual's karma & is beyond his

control.

 

 

Consequences arising out of application of social rules and penal laws,

accidents, ailments are examples of external external fruits.

Social rules and penal laws vary from country to country and from age to age.

accidents occurs without any warning.

Ailments occurs even to persons who lead a pious and hygenic life.

 

So external fruits are not fully within our control. Also they are UNPREDICTABLE

AND IRREGULAR. Means they can sometimes fructify instantaneously or sometimes

not at all.

 

But Internal fruits can be controlled by an individual by doing virtous acts and

therby depleting his karmashaysa.But external fruit is not under his control.

 

So if someone cuts another's hand. His punishment being an external fruit will

be unpredictable and irregular.

 

 

If he is in Saud Arabia he will be punished immediately by cutting his hands,

but if he is in India he would be able to roam freely without any fear(if he has

money and muscle

 

power). !!!!!!!

 

Regards

Vishal

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

I want to join Sri Gummuluru and state that the 'fruit of one's karma

is instantaneous.' This message is quite subtle but with the

introduction of the nonexistent time parameter, we derive the wrong

inference!

 

Though the Karma phala is instantaneous, we don't recognize

the 'phala' due to wrong attitude. Let me give an example: Suppose we

get an opportunity to serve a lunch or dinner for a hungry person.

Those who perform this act of kindness with the attitude that

the 'act itself is the reward' attain the karma phala

instantaneously. Others who expect the Lord to shower them with

additional rewards for this act of kindness fail to recognize

the 'the presence of divinity' during the act of kindness.

 

The question of 'punishment' and 'reward' only arises in the social

context. In the spiritual context, we only have the 'right' to act

and do not have the authority to judge our acts!

 

Finally I recommend your friend to read Gita Verse 47 of chapter 2

once more!

 

karmaNi eva adhikaaraste maa phaleshu gadaachana

maa karma phala hetuH bhuH maa sanghaH astu akarmaNi

(Gita, Chapter 2:47)

(We should act not because the actions will produce such and such

result or avoid the activity because we think the results produced

may not be of our interest. Actions should proceed from the sense of

duty. One has to do his duty no matter what the consequences are)

 

I also recommend the following quotations of Swami Chinmayananda

which provide further insights to your friend's question.

==========================================

Sin is never in action, it is always in reaction.

Happiness depends on what you can give, Not on what you can get

Grace is only to be found by effort, although it is here and now

Do the best and leave the rest

Disappointment can come only to those Who make Appointment with the

future

The highest form of grace is silence

==========================================

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> praNAm prabhujis

> Hare Krishna

>

> This is a question asked by my friend. I request help from learned

members

> of this group.

>

> why one has to *wait* to reap the fruit of his karma no

> matter it is good or bad!!! For example, if someone cuts another's

hand,

> he should be punished *immediately* according to karma phala

nyAya. One

> should not wait many janmAs or many years to reap the fruit of his

*pApa /

> puNya

[Guest guest]

--- Ram Chandran <rchandran wrote:

> Namaste:

>

> I want to join Sri Gummuluru and state that the

> 'fruit of one's karma

> is instantaneous.' This message is quite subtle but

> with the

> introduction of the nonexistent time parameter, we

> derive the wrong

> inference!

>

> Though the Karma phala is instantaneous, we don't

> recognize

> the 'phala' due to wrong attitude.

 

Namaste all,

That is very useful and the subtlety appreciated.

Some friends and I noted a few years ago a common

'experience'. This was that since we had begun upon

this 'path' it had been obvious that the 'wrong

action/negative fruit' cycle had speeded up. ( We did

not consider the good/positive one.)

We saw this as an act of grace, painful as it may have

appeared at the time.

Indeed, time is the catch. As long as we dwell in

dualistic thought, a child of time, we see this kind

of cause and effect and look for an explanation. As

long as chaitanya remains associated with maya the

instantaneous reality is not understood. Hence we then

need to distinguish prarabdha, sanchita and

agami-karmas.

Tat tvam asi cuts through this knot.

 

So thanks for your posting, it has presented a more

subtle view than I had held and poorly expressed

above,

 

Ken Knight

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <hilken_98@Y...> wrote:

>

> --- Ram Chandran <rchandran@c...> wrote:

> > Though the Karma phala is instantaneous, we don't

> > recognize

> > the 'phala' due to wrong attitude.

>

> Namaste all,

> That is very useful and the subtlety appreciated.

> Some friends and I noted a few years ago a common

> 'experience'. This was that since we had begun upon

> this 'path' it had been obvious that the 'wrong

> action/negative fruit' cycle had speeded up. ( We did

> not consider the good/positive one.)

> We saw this as an act of grace, painful as it may have

> appeared at the time.

> Indeed, time is the catch. As long as we dwell in

> dualistic thought, a child of time, we see this kind

> of cause and effect and look for an explanation. As

> long as chaitanya remains associated with maya the

> instantaneous reality is not understood. Hence we then

> need to distinguish prarabdha, sanchita and

> agami-karmas.

> Tat tvam asi cuts through this knot.

 

Namaste,

 

These views are also confirmed in such passages as:

 

Gita, 4:12, provides an answer on one level like this:

 

kaaN^kShantaH karmaNaa.n siddhi.n yajanta iha devataaH .

kShipra.n hi maanushhe loke siddhirbhavati karmajaa ..

 

"In this world those who entertain desire for the fruits of pious

works, worship the deities. For in this world such actions bear fruit

quickly."

 

On another level, it exhorts 'abhyAsa and vairAgya' (practice

and dispassion) as the only remedies for controlling the mind (6:37).

vairAgya is the 'absence of desire for fruits in this world, and the

next',(based on discrimination between the eternal and ephemeral

(viveka), as Tattva Bodha defines it.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder