Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 ** Namaste. Sri Benjamin Root just posted: "It may be a trivial statement, but I don't think that the 'enlightenment' of an individual can be measured by outward actions. To me the 'light' of enlightenment is primarily a pure and blissful feeling or state of consciousness which permeates everything. You might think that this would lead the Jnana to always have a sweet smile (...). I don't know that this is true. It may be true at a preliminary stage, but as enlightenment becomes an integral part of our being, we can paradoxically interact with the world just like others, precisely because our sense of self has been dissolved (...." ** Let us compare with Abide in the Light By Swami Atmaswarupananda, at: http://www.dlshq.org/messages/light.htm ........there, we read: "But this is the blessing of being in an ashram which is full of light. Wherever we turn there is light. There is light in the repetition of God’s name. There is light in the worships conducted. There is light in the teachings given, and there is light in meditation. We must be determined to abide in the Light. We must be committed to abide in the Light.". ** So, these two opinions lead to a common notion: the question "Is there 'light' in Enlightenment?" is perhaps best seen in a collective realm, not only in an individual scope. "Light" implies, perhaps automatically, relationships. Science would probably say that, also. **Best Regards to all Advaitins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Sri Eric Jautee said: >So, these two opinions lead to a common notion: the question "Is >there >'light' in Enlightenment?" is perhaps best seen in a >collective realm, not >only in an individual scope. "Light" implies, perhaps automatically >relationships. Science would probably say that, also. An interesting suggestion. But what about all the rishis (seers, sages) in ancient India who went off into the forest, to meditate alone until death? I believe that the Upanishads come from people like this. I also believe that spiritual experience is first and foremost an intensely personal experience, which paradoxically dissolves the very notion of personal self. Spirituality is full of paradoxes like this. Also, I know that somewhere in the Vivekachudamani, Shankara advises us to be alone as much as possible, preferably in a meditative state... Sociability leads to a lot of talking, which is mostly hot air. (That can happen on a list too!) Ramana stayed silent most of the time, even when surrounded by people. If you want to call him 'sociable', because he stayed in an Ashram, then you must surely distinguish this from ordinary sociability, i.e. the usual yaketey-yak! Ultimately, if one experiences only Self, then there are no self and others, so the question becomes null and void, as do most questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 At 11:55 AM 9/5/2003 -0400, Benjamin Root wrote: >I also believe that spiritual experience is first and foremost an >intensely personal experience, which paradoxically dissolves the very >notion of personal self. Spirituality is full of paradoxes like this. Some spiritual experiences actually solidify the notion of the personal self. And in a most unintended way. A new, more subtle superimposition can arise. Pride and a sense of ownership blossom with respect to that experience. You've done some reading on other spiritual lists - their writing is full of these kinds of reports. --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 --- Sri Benjamin Root wrote: > "What about all the rishis (seers, > sages) in ancient India who went off into the forest, to meditate > alone until death? I believe that the Upanishads come from people > like this. I also believe that spiritual experience is first and foremost an > intensely personal experience, which paradoxically dissolves the very > notion of personal self. Spirituality is full of paradoxes like this." > Also, I know that somewhere in the Vivekachudamani, Shankara advises > us to be alone as much as possible (...)". ------------------ **Namaste. I agree totally with you: there is historically a strong personal aspect in the spiritual experience that we discuss (search of light in enlightenment). ** But since centuries, the social hindu life recommended devoting the end of our lives to personal meditating, and if possible, with retreating into forests. So there is another paradox in this experience of searching Light in the enlightenment: a personal option, yes, but included and recommended in a social system. **Different social systems recommended quite different moments and settings for this search. **So, the way of personal meditating for Light may be strongly influenced by social ways of life. ** Best regards to all Advaitins. ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 Namaste Ericji. I believe you are referring to sanyAsa generally translated as a life of renunciation. We have to go by the Bhagwad GItA here which prescribes two ways (dwividA prOktA). One is karma yoga and the other sanyAsA (jnAna yoga). People like me who are encumbered with familial responsibilities has the first option whereby spiritual progress and chittasuddhi, the main requisite for realization to take place, is possible through unbinding action. The second is for relatively freer individuals. But both presuppose an academic appreciation of the truth of advaita gained through scriptural study and listening to a preceptor. If that still visualized appreciation has the supposition of some ultimate 'light' as goal, then, alas! that can lead the aspirant astray. Both ways demand continuous contemplation on scriptural statements about the ultimate reality, whereby the aspirant with chittasuddhi ultimately realizes that he himself is the "One without a second" and therefore one with everything. If there is any scope for 'light' in this realization is the question we are discussing. So, do we have to presuppose the existence of 'light' and hunt for it in the jungles? PraNAms. Madathil Nair ____________________ advaitin, "Eric Jautee" <eric.jauteev@w...> wrote: I agree totally with you: there is historically a strong > personal aspect in the spiritual experience that we discuss > (search of light in enlightenment). > ** But since centuries, the social hindu life recommended > devoting the end of our lives to personal meditating, and if > possible, with retreating into forests. So there is another paradox > in this experience of searching Light in the enlightenment: a > personal option, yes, but included and recommended in a social > system. > **Different social systems recommended quite different > moments and settings for this search. > **So, the way of personal meditating for Light may be strongly > influenced by social ways of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2003 Report Share Posted September 6, 2003 Namaste Benjamin: >I also believe that spiritual experience is first and foremost an >intensely personal experience, which paradoxically dissolves the >very >notion of personal self. Spirituality is full of paradoxes >like >this. Greg: Some spiritual experiences actually solidify the notion of the personal self. And in a most unintended way. A new, more subtle superimposition can arise. Pride and a sense of ownership blossom with respect to that experience. You've done some reading on other spiritual lists - their writing is full of these kinds of reports. Benjamin: Your point is well taken, but I suppose it depends on how broadly you define 'spiritual'. I am not particularly impressed just because someone has had this or that 'experience', even an ecstatic one. It could still just be brain or ego stimulation of some kind. However, the kinds of spiritual writings which seem most authentic to me all seem to stress the dissolution of the ego in a nondual experience where self and universe become 'one' in some sense. I hasten to add that this is not merely petty morality. Not that I am against some reasonable morality, but anyone who starts to preach to you too much about your miserable sinful ego is probably just a pedestrian priest and not a true mystic who has had a genuine 'infinite' experience, whatever that means. Speaking of infinity, that explains why the dissolution of the ego is necessary to manifest the infinite potential of consciousness. If we think we are any limited thing, even the greatest person or guru of all time, then we are still limiting ourselves by our limited thought. Any finite thought or identification is bondage by its very nature It all makes sense to me. This no-ego business is scientific, not mere petty morality. We are told not to slander other gurus here, but I don't think anyone will object if I say that the so-called 'Adi Da' really seems like case of pathological ego to me. Ken Wilber was once fooled by him. Wilber also seems to have a sense of his importance, though he does say many clear and intelligent things. I believe the Diamond Sutra, which says that when a Bodhisattva leads a multitude to enlightenment, no one is leading no one to enlightenment, or at least no one realizes it. In general I am skeptical of any guru who seems to enjoy being on a pedestal. I think a sign of honesty is that others criticize rather than venerate you. Real saints are usually venerated after they die, or so it seems. I respect Krishnamurti for walking away from the avatar status they tried to foist oh him. However, even he was not perfect; he seems a bit lacking in humor. Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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