Is there 'light' in Enlightenment? (Sept. 03 discussion topic)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji,

One of the great european musicians, Beethoven was supposedly deaf. I don't know

if he was totally deaf or not.

 

Regards

Guruprasad

 

Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

 

.. It was years later that he casually remarked that he was

'color-blind'!! (of course since birth!). I have not met anyone yet

who is 'tone-deaf' and yet an accomplished musician. Of course, such

persons do appreciate good music, how we cannot say!

 

For the spiritually mature, the Spirit provides for them, no

matter what 'deficit' they may have to endure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

 

How does visionary experience come to pass? We are

betimes translated from one locus to another. And we

may not be even aware of it at the time. So it is with

habitual visionaries who are not in this world. When

Sri Ramakrishna talked to the Divine Mother no one else

saw her yet he was there with her. Yogananda and Papa

Ramdas had visions which they took to be very important

to them as confirmation and encouragement. It would be

silly to play the superior advaitin and say 'but that's

all mere experience'. This morning after reading the

very stimulating digest of the 10th.Sept. I opened for

sortilege 'The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' and found

therin:

 

"It is a joy to merge the mind in the Indivisible

Brahman through contemplation. And it is also a joy to

keep the mind on the Lila, the Relative, without

dissolving it in the Absolute.

A mere jnani is a monotonous person. He always

analyses, saying 'It is not this, not this. The world

is like a dream'. But I have 'raised both my hands'.

((referring to a story which he then relates)).

Therefore I accept everything." pg.435

 

Though persons tend to gravitate towards the one or the

other pole and focus their sadhana on that, to claim

that one is superior to the other is I believe a

mistake. Reality is beyond the pairs of opposites.

Wouldn't chit(as we know it) and jada (as we know it)

be an ultimate pair of opposites also?

 

Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

My dear noble devotee of Sri Samkara Bhagavatpujyapada,

 

My cousin also used to hear this kind of a sound.

 

another cousin's daughter was actually escorted in the U.S.A.

 

I used to hear different music sometime ago.Also,in the morning's

I was gently tapped on my back and asked to get up,probably to say

my prayers.

 

Millions of people,I think ,get such experiences.

 

All this is simply MAYA !!!

 

My Mama was actually one day saw Sri Laalitamba standing at the

doorstep and asking her permission to come in.If you ask her she

will tell you unbelievable experiences in her life!!!

 

All this is onething,conquering mind - vasana kshayam - is another

thing,Sir!

 

Lord Siva Himself,verily Lord Siva in the form of Nataraja

appeared in my wakeful dream state once and asked me something. I

saw Ramana maharshi in wakeful dreams a number of times. These are

all dreams.Full stop.

 

i forgot to tell you. When I went to Arunanachala , I told you

that I could not hold myself until I reach the top. I saluted the

footrints at the top. There I saw a PIPAL Tree on the EESANYAM

SIDE of the mountain and I wanted to sit there and meditate. Thank

God ,I did not go there.

I saw a European sitting away from the tree on the other side of

the ridge - it is away from the tree.It is youngish.later on i was

told that there is no such tree there. Probably,hallucinations of

the mental order!!!

 

Any how the point is that these are all not the crux.The crux of

the issue,my dear Prof. nair, is did you identify the jiva at

least.Any body with a little practice can do it.Then,the real

story of your spiritual journey takes a different turn- voyage of

antharmkha vikshana starts.

 

Since ,you are a devotee of Sri Lalithamba,she will surely take

you there.First,let us stop crying and start keeping quiet!!!

 

in a hurry

 

Love,

Bhuvaneswar

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote :

>Namaste Ericji.

>

>Thanks for your input. I can relate very well to what you have

>said.

>

>I wish others too join in and narrate their personal

>experiences,

>particularly those involving light.

>

>I haven't said all that I experience for fear of digressing out

>of

>the parameters of this discussion. Frankly speaking, as a Devi

>upasaka, I hear the sounds of anklets and music in my ears most

>of

>the time. Even if I close my ears tight, these very pleasant

>sounds

>persist. Some spiritually knowledgable persons suggest that it

>may

>be due to kundalini awakening. They advise me not to divulge

>the

>matter to others. I haven't followed their advice as, if it is

>the

>Devi's Grace indeed (I hope it is), She should have no reason

>to

>withhold it from me when I continue with my devotion for Her.

>

>I am not superstitious. I confess I have slight hearing

>impairment

>on both my ears. To a lady ENT specialist who studied my case,

>however, I pleaded not to interfere with the anklet sounds and

>music

>as they do not in any way interfere with my activities and are

>in

>fact very sweet to live with. The lady understood. In fact, I

>take

>her to be the Devi appearing before me in person, therefore.

>

>Thank you one again, Eric. May your input inspire others also

>to

>share their expereinces.

>

>PraNAms.

>

>Madathil Nair

>

>___________________

>

>advaitin, "Eric Jautee"

><eric.jauteev@w...>

>wrote:

> >   ** Very modestly, I bring here my own experience. I

>experienced

>frequent =

> >

> > moments as steps towards self-realization. ....

>

>

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[Guest guest]

The point ,sir, is because sri Rama Krishna and Ramana Maharshi

and othe noble souls are already purified in their word ,deed and

thought, the visions have acquired profound significance.

 

People who are pravruththtiriddden may get a hundred visions like

this,but they have no significance.

 

this is my own humble submission,sir!

 

love,bhuvanerswar

 

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 ombhurbhuva wrote :

>Hello All,

>

>How does visionary experience come to pass? We are

>betimes translated from one locus to another. And we

>may not be even aware of it at the time. So it is with

>habitual visionaries who are not in this world. When

>Sri Ramakrishna talked to the Divine Mother no one else

>saw her yet he was there with her. Yogananda and Papa

>Ramdas had visions which they took to be very important

>to them as confirmation and encouragement. It would be

>silly to play the superior advaitin and say 'but that's

>all mere experience'. This morning after reading the

>very stimulating digest of the 10th.Sept. I opened for

>sortilege 'The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna' and found

>therin:

>

>"It is a joy to merge the mind in the Indivisible

>Brahman through contemplation. And it is also a joy to

>keep the mind on the Lila, the Relative, without

>dissolving it in the Absolute.

> A mere jnani is a monotonous person. He always

>analyses, saying 'It is not this, not this. The world

>is like a dream'. But I have 'raised both my hands'.

>((referring to a story which he then relates)).

>Therefore I accept everything." pg.435

>

>Though persons tend to gravitate towards the one or the

>other pole and focus their sadhana on that, to claim

>that one is superior to the other is I believe a

>mistake. Reality is beyond the pairs of opposites.

>Wouldn't chit(as we know it) and jada (as we know it)

>be an ultimate pair of opposites also?

>

>Best Wishes, Michael.

>

>

>

>------------------------ Sponsor

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

>nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at:

>http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at:

>advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>Your use of is subject to

>

>

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Members:

 

Reading the discussion on "Is there 'light' in Enlightenment?" I am

reminded of a story when a sadhaka met Adi Shankaraacharya. All

Sanakaracharya did was to "ENLIGHTEN" him, "THE SAADHAKA" with just

few questions (rather than answers!). Once enlightened he went on

his way.

 

If you are ready to receive a Guru then he sees this and advises

accordingly. All he does to stimulate you faculties in order to make

you self-sufficient so that you can do such evaluations on your own.

A sadguru never spoon-feed his disciples.

 

Just like a clean lamp, with wick and oil is ready to receive the

(jnaana) jyoti.

 

Longing for knowledge is one of the most enjoyable states to

experience that can not be described and need to be understood in

first person by you yourself.

It is said that once a sadhaka (mumuxu) approached Adi

Shankaracharya. The question and answers between sadhaka and

Shankaracharya that resulted in the enlightenment of sadhaka is

narrated bellow:

 

Q.: What light do you see in? ki.m jyotistava?

A: Sunlight during the day and with the help of dIp at night.

bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam

Q: It is true that you see it in the light of Sun and a dIp but

what is that (jyoti) that sees it? svadeva.m,

ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me?

A: Eyes caxuH

Q: Then what is that jyoti that you can see with after closing

eyes? tasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m?

A: Brain (buddhi) dhiiH

 

Complete shloka is as follows:

 

ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam .

svadeva.m ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me ..

caxustasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m dhiirdhiyo darshane .

ki.m tatraahamato bhavaan paramaka.m jyotistadasmi prabho ..

 

May be enlightened readers should "DECIDE" what light they are trying

to "SEE"?

 

With regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam .

svadeva.m ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me ..

caxustasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m dhiirdhiyo darshane .

ki.m tatraahamato bhavaan paramaka.m jyotistadasmi prabho ..

> praNAm prabhuji

> Hare krishna

> This reminds me dialogue between king janaka & sage yAgnAvalkya in Br.

Up. what is the title of this shloka prabhuji?? (Sunder prabhuji any

help??)

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "ymoharir" <ymoharir> wrote:

> Dear Respected Members:

The question and answers between sadhaka and

> Shankaracharya that resulted in the enlightenment of sadhaka is

> narrated bellow:

>

> Q.: What light do you see in? ki.m jyotistava?

> A: Sunlight during the day and with the help of dIp at night.

> bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam

> Q: It is true that you see it in the light of Sun and a dIp but

> what is that (jyoti) that sees it? svadeva.m,

> ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me?

> A: Eyes caxuH

> Q: Then what is that jyoti that you can see with after closing

> eyes? tasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m?

> A: Brain (buddhi) dhiiH

>

> Complete shloka is as follows:

>

> ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam .

> svadeva.m ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me ..

> caxustasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m dhiirdhiyo darshane .

> ki.m tatraahamato bhavaan paramaka.m jyotistadasmi prabho ..

>

> May be enlightened readers should "DECIDE" what light they are

trying

> to "SEE"?

>

> With regards,

>

> Dr. Yadu

 

 

Namaste, Dr. Yadu-ji,

Thanks for reminding us of the right sloka at the right time!. But

why did you leave out translating the last line of the sloka? I

think the last line is the punchline. (I am completing the

translation, withh your permission, for the sake of our non-

Sanskrit readers).

Q. dhiyo darshane kim? : What sees the dhiih (buddhi, intellect)?

A. tatra aha.m : That is 'I'.

 

Q. ato bhavaan paramakam jyotih : therefore You are the supreme

light.

A. tathaa asmi prabho! : So it is, Oh Lord.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

prpofvk

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected ProfvK:

 

In my attempts to be in-tune with spirit of the "shloka". I wanted

readers to enjoy the punch-line for themselves.

 

It is my pleasure to be the member of this group and read

the "enlightening" posts.

 

With best regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

> advaitin, "ymoharir" <ymoharir> wrote:

> > Dear Respected Members:

> The question and answers between sadhaka and

> > Shankaracharya that resulted in the enlightenment of sadhaka is

> > narrated bellow:

> >

> > Q.: What light do you see in? ki.m jyotistava?

> > A: Sunlight during the day and with the help of dIp at night.

> > bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam

> > Q: It is true that you see it in the light of Sun and a dIp but

> > what is that (jyoti) that sees it? svadeva.m,

> > ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me?

> > A: Eyes caxuH

> > Q: Then what is that jyoti that you can see with after closing

> > eyes? tasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m?

> > A: Brain (buddhi) dhiiH

> >

> > Complete shloka is as follows:

> >

> > ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam .

> > svadeva.m ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me ..

> > caxustasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m dhiirdhiyo darshane .

> > ki.m tatraahamato bhavaan paramaka.m jyotistadasmi prabho ..

> >

> > May be enlightened readers should "DECIDE" what light they are

> trying

> > to "SEE"?

> >

> > With regards,

> >

> > Dr. Yadu

>

>

> Namaste, Dr. Yadu-ji,

> Thanks for reminding us of the right sloka at the right time!. But

> why did you leave out translating the last line of the sloka? I

> think the last line is the punchline. (I am completing the

> translation, withh your permission, for the sake of our non-

> Sanskrit readers).

> Q. dhiyo darshane kim? : What sees the dhiih (buddhi, intellect)?

> A. tatra aha.m : That is 'I'.

>

> Q. ato bhavaan paramakam jyotih : therefore You are the supreme

> light.

> A. tathaa asmi prabho! : So it is, Oh Lord.

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins

> prpofvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam ......

what is the title of this shloka ?

 

Namaste Bhaskarji,

 

The Complete Works (publ. Samata Books) lists this under

the title: 'Ekashloki'! (One Verse!). The other well-known & similarly

titled compositions include Dashashloki (Ten Verses) and Shatashloki

(100 verses)!!

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

In continuation of the ongoing discussions, let me pose and explain

the question - "Why did Ramana Maharishi decide to go to the

Arunachala temple at Thurvannamalai?" A puranic story describes the

origin of 'Jyotir Linga,' the principal deity of the Arunachala

temple. Once upon a time, Brahma and Vishnu had a dispute on the

superiority between the two and they went to Siva to settle the case.

Siva appeared before them in the form of a single column of light

(jyoti) and told them that whoever first locates the 'beginning'

or 'end' will be the most superior. Brahma took the form of a swan

to reach the end (top) of the light, and Vishnu took the form of a

boar to reach the beginning (bottom). According to this story,

neither of them were able to locate either the beginning or end! They

both were 'enlightened' and recognized the superiority of 'jyoti'

and enshrined it at Thiruvannalmalai. This story provides a

logically convincing reason why Ramana chose to go specifically to

Thiruvannamali.

 

First, we should recognize that puranic stories are quite

entertaining and at the same time they are most

importantly 'symbolic.' The main purpose of this story is to

illustrate that referenced 'light' is incomprehensible for even to

superhuman! Almost all religions recognize the importance of 'light'

and symbolically, it represents 'wisdom.' This may explain why those

with wisdom never attempt to explain what it is! Our problem is that

we want to explain 'wisdom' using tons of words and sentences!

 

In recognition of the importance of 'light' the Hindus celebrate two

exclusive festivals - 'festival of lights' and Karthikai Deepam. The

festival of lights - Deepavali (on new moon night sometime during

late October and early November) is equivalent to the Christmas

celebration. Families and friends get together, enjoy festive meals

and exchange gifts. During Karthikai Deepam (celebrated during the

next new moon after Deepavali and falls mostly during late November),

outside of every house is decorated with lights and the focus of this

celebration is deepam (light). This celebration signifies that

the 'light' in enlightenment is beyond creation, protection and

dissolution (symbolic representation of Brahma,Vishnu and Siva).

 

Arunachala temple is located at the base of Thiruvannamalai ( In

Tamil, 'malai' means hill). During the Karthikai Deepam festival,

the whole temple is lighted with thousands of lamps. Also in the city

of Thiruvannamalai, every home is illuminated with lamps. Those who

visit the city and temple on the Karthikai Celebration would be able

get a glimpse of the 'light.' Those who live in the foothills of the

Arunachala temple believe to have seen the 'jyoti' during the night

of Karthikai new moon day! Also during Karthikai Deepam day,

thousands of pilgrims assemble in front of the temple and light

the 'symbolic fire known as Sokkapanai' in celebration of this

occasion. Those in the west who plan to visit the Ramanasramam

should schedule their stay during the time of this celebration. The

pilgrims are guaranteed to see the 'light' of lamps and Sokkapanai if

they stand at the Arunachala foothill during the night of Karthikai

Deepam!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

Note: Another example for getting some insights on the 'light' in

enlightenment' is to understand the 'symbolism' behind

the 'Sabarimalai yatra - the eternal journey to Sabarimalai'

undertaken by hundreds of thousands of pilgrims. The journey

culminates on the 'Maharasankaranthi day' (full moon day during the

middle of January) and the pilgrims surrenders their possessions

to 'Ayyappa' the temple deity at the foothill of Sabari. On the night

before the Makara Sankranthi day (Middle of Januray - Full Moon Day)

hundreds of thousands of those pilgrims go to foot of the Sabari

Hills to get a glimpse of the 'Divine Jyoti', a brilliant light that

raises over the Kantha hill (adjacent to the Sabari Hill). Devotees

consider that witnessing this Jyothi (Light) symbolically represents

Enlightenment. Nobody can either confirm or deny the appearance of

this brilliant light. Such Divine incidents are unexplainable and are

beyond human perception and who are we to challenge or deny it! For

those who want to read the symbolism behind the Sabari yatra, please

read my post referenced below:

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m1931.html

 

Related articles on Karthikai Deepam:

http://www.poonja.com/deepam.htm

http://ulagan.tripod.com/expsai-1.htm

[Guest guest]

respected sir,

i am glad you posted this message on Sri Ramana Maharishi.

"Why did Ramana Maharishi decide to go to the

Arunachala temple at Thurvannamalai?"

 

as i know from the biography of the sage, when he was with his

brother he read a book on "Periya Puranam". this describes the life

of nayanmars. he thought why he can't become one like them. also he

met a sage who came from thiruvannamalai. when Sri Ramana asked from

where he came from he said he is from arunachala. Ramana asked where

is this place. the saint told him don't you know this is

thiruvannamalai. this made the sage go in search of this place.

 

Had he read say Nalayira dhivyaprabandham then things would be

different. just for arguement. Sri Ramana believed in both, it is

only people like us keep pondering over.

 

pranams

cdr bvn

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Another interesting episode which may be quite relevant for the

current discussion on 'light' in enlightenment. Dr. Oppenheimer, the

famous physicist was known as the father of the nuclear bomb. He was

also the first to witness the first nuclear explosion which was

carried out under his supervision. Oppenheimer was clinging to one of

the uprights in the control room and suddenly the passage quoted

below from the Bhagavad Gita, flashed into his mind. The famous quote

by Oppenheimer comes from Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 11: "If the radiance

of a thousand suns Were to burst at once into the sky, That would be

like the splendor of the Mighty One...I am become Death, The

destroyer of Worlds" to describe his emotions as he watched the

rising fire ball of the first above-ground nuclear explosion.

Oppenheimer was widely quoted as the moral conscience of those who

had worked on the project. He often made the point that "the

physicists have known sin, and this is a knowledge which they cannot

lose." When one of the reporters asked him to name his most favorite

book, his answer obviously was, Bhagavad Gita.

 

The above episode illustrates how the enlightened scientist was able

to see the 'LIGHT.' I could imagine Oppenheimer like his counterpart

Arjuna witnessing the Visvarupa Dharsana of the Almighty in the form

of the nuclear explosion! It seems that both Arjuna and Oppenheimer

couldn't comprehend the vision and they both wished not to see it

again! The personalities of both Arjuna and Oppenheimer became quite

different after witnessing the 'light.' Even though they couldn't

comprehend they certainly become enlightened.

 

It should be also pointed out that Oppenheimer was quite familiar

with the Hindu system of gods popularly known as the Trinity which

stands for Brahma (creator), Vishnu (sustainer) and Siva (dissolver).

The first nuclear explosion in history took place in New Mexico, at

the Alamogordo Test Range, on the Jornada del Muerto (Journey of

Death) desert. The name of the test was Trinity and is commonly

thought that Robert Oppenheimer since he was the head of the Nuclear

Weapon Project. A leading theory is that Oppenheimer did select it,

and that he did so with reference to the divine Hindu trinity

mentioned above. Oppenheimer had an avid interest in Sanskrit

literature (which he had taught himself to read), and following the

Trinity test is reported to have recited the passage from the

Bhagavad-Gita immediately after the Trinity test during July 1945.

 

Website with information on Trinity:

http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/Usa/Tests/Trinity.html)

Everyone who wants to see the 'light' should also read the

book, "Brighter than thousand suns" by Robert Jungk, published by

Penguin.

Warmest regards,

Ram Chandran

Note: Just like the philosophers, physicists were also quite

fascinated by 'light.' As a matter of fact, Dr. C.V. Raman the

famous Indian Physicist got a noble prize for finding the 'light' in

light!

[Guest guest]

I have heard this story with a different ending.

Vishnu came back and confessed that he could not find the origin of the Light.

Brahma returned and lied that he DID

locate the origin of the shaft of Light. When, found out, both Vishnu and Siva

admonished Brahma for not telling the

truth. From that day on Brahma was not allowed to be worshipped; his celestial

position was reduced below Vishnu and

Siva.

Ram

 

 

 

Ram Chandran wrote:

> Namaste:

>

> In continuation of the ongoing discussions, let me pose and explain

> the question - "Why did Ramana Maharishi decide to go to the

> Arunachala temple at Thurvannamalai?" A puranic story describes the

> origin of 'Jyotir Linga,' the principal deity of the Arunachala

> temple. Once upon a time, Brahma and Vishnu had a dispute on the

> superiority between the two and they went to Siva to settle the case.

> Siva appeared before them in the form of a single column of light

> (jyoti) and told them that whoever first locates the 'beginning'

> or 'end' will be the most superior. Brahma took the form of a swan

> to reach the end (top) of the light, and Vishnu took the form of a

> boar to reach the beginning (bottom). According to this story,

> neither of them were able to locate either the beginning or end! They

> both were 'enlightened' and recognized the superiority of 'jyoti'

> and enshrined it at Thiruvannalmalai. This story provides a

> logically convincing reason why Ramana chose to go specifically to

> Thiruvannamali.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Dr. Yaduji.

 

I believe all Advaitins on this forum can appreciate what Sankara

meant by the verse (i.e. the seer of the intellect). However, even

if I am aware that I am the seer of the intellect, yet I have

to 'undertake' certain actions (say sAdhanA) and undergo a 'process'

(enlightenment) by which I verily 'become' that seer or self-

realize. The question we are discussing is whether there is any type

of 'light', 'jyoti' or 'prakAshA' in that process or culminatin of

that process.

 

However, I appreciate your posting the beautiful verse.

 

Best regards.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________

 

 

advaitin, "ymoharir" <ymoharir> wrote:

> Dear Respected ProfvK:

>

> In my attempts to be in-tune with spirit of the "shloka". I wanted

> readers to enjoy the punch-line for themselves.

>

> It is my pleasure to be the member of this group and read

> the "enlightening" posts.

>

> With best regards,

>

> Dr. Yadu

>

> advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

> wrote:

> > advaitin, "ymoharir" <ymoharir> wrote:

> > > Dear Respected Members:

> > The question and answers between sadhaka and

> > > Shankaracharya that resulted in the enlightenment of sadhaka is

> > > narrated bellow:

> > >

> > > Q.: What light do you see in? ki.m jyotistava?

> > > A: Sunlight during the day and with the help of dIp at

night.

> > > bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam

> > > Q: It is true that you see it in the light of Sun and a

dIp but

> > > what is that (jyoti) that sees it? svadeva.m,

> > > ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me?

> > > A: Eyes caxuH

> > > Q: Then what is that jyoti that you can see with after

closing

> > > eyes? tasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m?

> > > A: Brain (buddhi) dhiiH

> > >

> > > Complete shloka is as follows:

> > >

> > > ki.m jyotistava bhaanumaanahani me raatrau pradipaadikam .

> > > svadeva.m ravidiipadarshanavidhau ki.m jyotiraakhyaahi me ..

> > > caxustasya nimilanaadisamaye ki.m dhiirdhiyo darshane .

> > > ki.m tatraahamato bhavaan paramaka.m jyotistadasmi prabho ..

> > >

> > > May be enlightened readers should "DECIDE" what light they are

> > trying

> > > to "SEE"?

> > >

> > > With regards,

> > >

> > > Dr. Yadu

> >

> >

> > Namaste, Dr. Yadu-ji,

> > Thanks for reminding us of the right sloka at the right time!.

But

> > why did you leave out translating the last line of the sloka? I

> > think the last line is the punchline. (I am completing the

> > translation, withh your permission, for the sake of our non-

> > Sanskrit readers).

> > Q. dhiyo darshane kim? : What sees the dhiih (buddhi, intellect)?

> > A. tatra aha.m : That is 'I'.

> >

> > Q. ato bhavaan paramakam jyotih : therefore You are the supreme

> > light.

> > A. tathaa asmi prabho! : So it is, Oh Lord.

> >

> > PraNAms to all advaitins

> > prpofvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Dr. Yaduji.

>

> I believe all Advaitins on this forum can appreciate what Sankara

> meant by the verse (i.e. the seer of the intellect).

 

Namaste,

 

Just wanted to share these inspiring words of (the late)

Sw. Chidananda, of Rishikesh (Divine Life Society):

 

 

http://www.divyajivan.org/articles/chida/light.htm

 

................"........Whatever shines here, shines due to the

radiance of that great Light of lights beyond all darkness. And of

that great Light of lights beyond all darkness, you are all radiant

rays. To shine is your birthright. Light is your unchanging eternal being.

And yet we pray tamaso ma jyotirgamaya (Lead us from darkness unto

Light); and yet we pray dhiyo yo nah prachodayat (May He illumine our

intellect). What is this contradiction? What is this anomaly? You who

are the Light of lights, you who are a radiant centre of effulgence,

divine effulgence, spiritual effulgence, why should you pray, tamaso

ma jyotirgamaya? Where comes tamas (darkness)?

This morning in the spiritual presence of Gurudev, in this sacred

Samadhi Hall of his holy Ashram, I wish to tell you once and for

all—to shine is your birthright. I wish to tell you once and for

all—there is no darkness in you.

If you pray tamaso ma jyotirgamaya, it is not because there is any

darkness in you. You are not asking for Light, because you are the

Light. "I am in the Light, the Light is in me, I am the Light"—this is

the truth. This is the truth and nothing else.

When you are the Light, why then do you pray tamaso ma jyotirgamaya?

You pray this way because there is something that has come as a

covering. Why it has come, how it has come, we need not go into. It is

unnecessary. But we know that it is there. And therefore this covering

is to be removed and this is your chance.

A dog cannot study Vedanta. A dog cannot work out the means of

removing the darkness that enshrouds it, the darkness that tries to

hide and cover the Light that refuses to be hidden, that refuses to

remain covered for long. A pig or a sheep or a goat cannot know that

it is the Light of lights beyond all darkness, a ray of the radiance

called param jyotisvarupa paramatma (the supreme Self Who is of the

nature of supreme light). But you can, because you are made in His

image, capable of thinking.

The sky is the limit to the ascent of your thought. Great minds have

proven it. So remove that which seems to be dark, which is not in you,

but seems to be because of its proximity. Avarana, they used the

significant word avarana—a covering. Therefore the prayer asks for the

removal of that which covers your effulgence, the radiance that is

your birthright.

And this prayer should be followed by action to remove this darkness.

That action is called Yoga, That action is called sadhana. And that

action to remove the darkness and once again shine with effulgence is

the science of religion. It is your supreme duty. It is your great

privilege. Engage in it. Our ancients gave it as the highest of all

values to be pursued, striven after, the supreme value, atma

sakshatkara (Self-realisation).

Ponder these points. There is no darkness in you. You are eternal

Light. Come out of this enshrouding anatma (non-Self), enshrouding

cover, that has been temporarily made to come over you. It cannot

touch or dim or alter your effulgence. Radiantly effulgent, you have

come here upon earth to shine, illumine all, and leave this world a

thing of brightness................"

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sunderji:

 

The sages and saints ncluding Sankara and Chidananda tell using their

subtle terminology that the 'light' in Enlightenment glows ever in

the hearts of those who 'seek' to see! Those who see 'darkness' are

those who 'seek darkness!'

 

Our true divine nature illumines forever within and it seems that we

look for the 'light' outside. Darkness comes out of 'self-creation'

from ignorance propelled by ego!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh>

wrote:

> advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

> <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste Dr. Yaduji.

> >

> > I believe all Advaitins on this forum can appreciate what Sankara

> > meant by the verse (i.e. the seer of the intellect).

>

> Namaste,

>

> Just wanted to share these inspiring words of (the late)

> Sw. Chidananda, of Rishikesh (Divine Life Society):

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh>

wrote:

> advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

> <madathilnair> wrote:

> > Namaste Dr. Yaduji.

> >

> > I believe all Advaitins on this forum can appreciate what

Sankara

> > meant by the verse (i.e. the seer of the intellect).

>

> Namaste,

>

> Just wanted to share these inspiring words of (the late)

> Sw. Chidananda, of Rishikesh (Divine Life Society):

>

 

Is this Swami Chidanandaji Maharaj of Rishikesh? I haven't heard of

his passing. Just curious - I read about KrishNa janamAshtami

celebrations in August 2003.

 

Can Sri Sunderji please clarify,

 

Savithri

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote:

>

> I wish others too join in and narrate their personal experiences,

> particularly those involving light.

>

> [...]

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

 

namaste. shri Madathil-ji is asking members to narrate their

personal experience involving light. Without taking anything

away from that request, I like to pose a related question:

is enlightenment (Self-realization) an *experience* ? If so,

*who* is experiencing this ? Also, are these "experiences"

intermediate and *necessary* steps on way to Self-realization ?

 

Further, on friday, shri Madathil continued:

 

> ... The question we are discussing is whether there is any

> type of 'light', 'jyoti' or 'prakAshA' in that process or

> culminatin of that process.

 

Please allow me to to express my understanding on this 'light'.

 

Light is a perception, just like shabda, taste etc and is a

sensory perception. I am not sure what it has to do with

enlightenment if we are using word enlightenment as an

alternate word for SELF-realization. Yes, the scriptural writings

and shri shankara's works use the words jyoti, prakAsha etc for

that blissful 'state' of the SELF-Knowledge. That is because,

I think, the avidyA state is regarded as tamasA, full of darkness

and knowing the SELF is the removal of this darkness of ignorance,

which is a 'state' of brightness. Beyond that descriptive

terminology, I do not think there is any light in enlightenment.

 

The SELF is without sound (nishshabda), nirAkAra (without form),

avyaya (without destruction), without taste, etc. Then I do not

see why we need to attach light (as we know light from our

sense-perception) to this avyakta, the SELF.

The SELF is mentioned as bright because It, the SELF, is the

light that lights the universe. In the same way, It is the sound,

the taste, the form that fills the universe. The light in

enlightenment is not different from any of these sensory perceptions.

It cannot be seen as anything beyond an attribute of the SELF.

 

 

Regards

Gummuluru Murthy

-----

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I deeply regret the error in mentioning Swami Chidanandaji as

'(the late)'. He has been seriously ill for over a year, and had left

detailed instructions about how his samadhi should be handled. This

must have confused my memory.

 

http://www.dlshq.org/announce/samadhi_instr.htm

 

http://www.dlshq.org/announce/chida_health.htm

 

Thank you, Savithriji, for drawing attention to the

serious lapse in my reporting.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

advaitin, "savithri_devaraj"

<savithri_devaraj> wrote:

Just curious - I read about KrishNa janamAshtami

> celebrations in August 2003.

>

> Can Sri Sunderji please clarify,

>

> Savithri

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Sw. Chidananda celebrating Krishna Janmashtami, Aug. 26, 2003:

 

 

http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/multimedia/janmastami_chida.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste Bhuvaneswarji.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

However, you seem to have misinterpreted my post.

 

I look at my experiences most dispassionately and am not prepared to

be fooled into believing that whatever is happening is the end I am

seeking. I mentioned my experieces in order to enthuse others to

share theirs and find out how widely prevalent such experiences are

among seekers. I thought such an attempt will help in understanding

the role sensory stimuli plays in spiritual development. Why decry

experiences even if they are mere hallucinations as long as they

inspire the seeker in the right manner and direction.

 

Incidentally, I am not a Professor.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

______________

 

 

advaitin, "bhuvan eswar chilukuri"

<bhuvaneswarc@r...> wrote:

> My cousin also used to hear this kind of a sound.

> another cousin's daughter was actually escorted in the U.S.A.

> I used to hear different music sometime ago.Also,in the morning's

> I was gently tapped on my back and asked to get up,probably to say

> my prayers.

> Millions of people,I think ,get such experiences.

> All this is simply MAYA !!!

> My Mama was actually one day saw Sri Laalitamba standing at the

> doorstep and asking her permission to come in.If you ask her she

> will tell you unbelievable experiences in her life!!!

> All this is onething,conquering mind - vasana kshayam - is another

> thing,Sir!

> Lord Siva Himself,verily Lord Siva in the form of Nataraja

> appeared in my wakeful dream state once and asked me something. I

> saw Ramana maharshi in wakeful dreams a number of times. These are

> all dreams.Full stop.>

> i forgot to tell you. When I went to Arunanachala , I told you

> that I could not hold myself until I reach the top. I saluted the

> footrints at the top. There I saw a PIPAL Tree on the EESANYAM

> SIDE of the mountain and I wanted to sit there and meditate. Thank

> God ,I did not go there.

> I saw a European sitting away from the tree on the other side of

> the ridge - it is away from the tree.It is youngish.later on i was

> told that there is no such tree there. Probably,hallucinations of

> the mental order!!!

> Any how the point is that these are all not the crux.The crux of

> the issue,my dear Prof. nair, is did you identify the jiva at

> least.Any body with a little practice can do it.Then,the real

> story of your spiritual journey takes a different turn- voyage of

> antharmkha vikshana starts.

>

> Since ,you are a devotee of Sri Lalithamba,she will surely take

> you there.First,let us stop crying and start keeping quiet!!!

>

> in a hurry

>

> Love,

> Bhuvaneswar

>

>

>

> On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote :

> >I haven't said all that I experience for fear of digressing out

> >of

> >the parameters of this discussion. Frankly speaking, as a Devi

> >upasaka, I hear the sounds of anklets and music in my ears most

> >of

> >the time. Even if I close my ears tight, these very pleasant

> >sounds

> >persist. Some spiritually knowledgable persons suggest that it

> >may

> >be due to kundalini awakening. They advise me not to divulge

> >the

> >matter to others. ...............> >I am not superstitious. I

confess I have slight hearing

> >impairment

> >on both my ears.

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:59:29 +0000, Madathil Rajendran Nair

<madathilnair wrote:

> I look at my experiences most dispassionately and am not prepared to

> be fooled into believing that whatever is happening is the end I am

> seeking.

 

Well said, Madathil-ji.

 

Along the same line, here's a quote I ran across recently: "The beliefs

which have led you to where you are today are not the same as those which

will lead you to where you wish to go."

 

Regards,

Ramlal

[Guest guest]

friend,

 

what you said is true. if you cannot get enlightened with the

knowledge you have aquired then it is useless itself. then you have

to go back i.e aquire more till such time you get enlightened. mere

sound is not sufficient, the light is what we are looking at.in that

nishabdha you must see some thing, till such time keep going.

 

there is no short cuts. if we are totally involved on that light then

we will see it.

 

pranams

 

cdr bvn

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...>

wrote:

>

>

The light in

> enlightenment is not different from any of these sensory

perceptions.

> It cannot be seen as anything beyond an attribute of the SELF.

>

>

> Regards

> Gummuluru Murthy

> -

----

 

Namaste all.

 

Interestingly, after all the pros and cons about 'light'

in 'enlightenment' and all the discussions which I have been

following with a 'jijnAsu's' attitude, Shri Gummulurumurthy's final

sentence caught me. I thought I can 'play' with it as follows:

 

"It cannot be seen as anything beyond an attribute of the SELF"

 

Here the words "an attribute of" have to be taken out because the

SELF has no attributes !

So the sentence becomes

"It cannot be seen as anything beyond the SELF"

 

But the SELF cannot be seen ! So take the "seen as" out. And we get

 

"It cannot be anything beyond the SELF"

 

But the preposition "beyond" relates "The SELF" to something. The

SELF cannot be 'related' !. So take the "anything beyond" out !

 

Now we get

 

"It cannot be the SELF"

 

This is correct. The Light (that we 'see' or 'don't see') is not the

SELF.

 

praNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

> advaitin, Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy@m...>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> The light in

> > enlightenment is not different from any of these sensory

> perceptions.

> > It cannot be seen as anything beyond an attribute of the SELF.

> >

> >

> > Regards

> > Gummuluru Murthy

 

Namaste,

 

Light is just a euphemism for lack of darkness or ignorance, nothing

less nothing more. All other sensory experiences are irrelevant.The

word Guru or dispeler of darkness could fill the same

function....ONS...Tony.