Re:__Why_or_how_to_remove_Anatma_to_“experience”_self?

September 27, 2003

Dear Sri Ranjeet-ji,

Namaste,

Reference your kind posting,

Gita verse 2.47, “Karmanieva adhikara: ma phaleshu kadachana”

“Adhikara” or choice is only in Karma i.e. action and not in “Phala” as Phala is

not entirely keeping with the action, and one has no choice over the result once

action has been taken.

I quote the commentary on this verse by Swami Dayanandji, who is considered as a

Teacher following Sankara Tradition, (Bhashya) while unfolding the Knowledge.

**“Your choice is in action only, never in the results thereof. Do not be the

author of the results of action. Let your attachment not be inaction”

“Sankara took the karma mentioned in this verse as purely scripturally enjoyed

karma (vaidika-karma) because this was what was under discussion. We shall look

at it as simply karma, rather than strictly vaidika-karma, since karma yoga

allows for it and Sankara said nothing to rule out the propriety of this

approach.

The word adhikara means choice here – your right, something you have power over.

This choice is only with reference to karma, the action you perform. At no time

(ma kadachit) however, is there a choice with reference to the results of action

(phaleshu). Thus, with reference to all actions, you have a choice, but with

reference to the results thereof, you have no choice whatsoever. This is a very

simple statement of fact. Even for vaidika karma there is a choice: you can do

it, you need not do it, and you can do it differently. This capacity to do, not

to do, and to do it differently makes you a karma adhikari. An animal on the

other hand is not a karma adhikari because it does not have a choice in its

actions, but it is motivated only by its instincts.

When Krishna told Arjuna that he did not have any choice over the results of

action, he was not giving him a piece of advice; it was a statement of fact. A

statement of fact is not advice, it is teaching. That water boils at 100 degree

centigrade is a statement of fact. Here also, with reference to actions and

their results ‘your choice is only in action, never in the results thereof’ is a

statement of fact.”**

To my understanding this verse, forms the foundation for Karma Yoga. When I

perform karma, though I have Adhikara in such performance, let me do it with

Iswra Arpana Budhi, i.e. as an offering to God, and when the Phala or Result of

that Karma comes, let me accept it with Prasad Budhi, i.e. something coming from

the altar of God.

To be very honest, no karma can be performed without expectation of a result.

Expectation of a result is the motivation for doing any karma, whether Loukika

or Vaidika.

<< A result of an action is something which does not exist while the

action is

performed.

The results starts when the action end.

If Self-realization is a result of sAdhana, then it ought to have a

beginning.

If it has a beginning, it invariably has an end.

So does Self-Realization has a beginning and an end?>>

I did not mean self-realization is the result of Sadhana.

Sadhana involves Action and there is Purusha Tantra in it. Self-realization is

result of self knowledge and as in the case of any other knowledge, self

knowledge is also Vastu Tantra, i.e. there is no choice in knowledge taking

place when the right pramana is operated and in the case of Self knowledge, the

Pramana is Sabda i.e. Veda, to be specific the Upanishads or Vedanta.

Sadhana/meditation, etc. cannot lead to any new knowledge, and it has some other

purpose i.e. anthakarana shudhi, which is a pre-requisite for self-knowledge.

The “result” of self-knowledge, in fact, does not take place after the knowledge

has taken place, as just like the knowledge itself, it was already there, but it

was covered (“Apohanam cha”) by ignorance. On removal of the ignorance it

shines. There is neither starting in time nor ending in time for this “Result”

as it was, is, and will be there always. It is “Pranavam”.

Hari Om

R.S.Mani

Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch wrote:Namaste Shri Mani-ji,

You said:

" There is no action without expecting a result. Even Lord Krishna while

teaching Arjuna expected that Arjuna should understand what he was teaching

about. "

Please read Gita2.47 - "karmaNyEvAdhi ..."

Is Lord Krishna asking us to do the impossible?

You said:

" Although there is no action required for any knowledge to take place, the

knowledge, that has taken place in one, leads to some result, and

self-knowledge is no exception."

A result of an action is something which does not exist while the action is

performed.

The results starts when the action end.

If Self-realization is a result of sAdhana, then it ought to have a

beginning.

If it has a beginning, it invariably has an end.

So does Self-Realization has a beginning and an end?

I agree to your other remarks.

Hari Om

-

"R.S.MANI"

To:

Saturday, September 27, 2003 06:45 AM

Why or how to remove Anatma to “experience” self?

Namaste,

Pardon me for my arrogance, but I thought I would share my little

understanding with the learned members of the group, with regard to some of

the postings in the forum.

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Your use of is subject to

The New with improved product search

September 27, 2003

Thank you Maniji for quoting that ocean of wisdom - PUjya Swami

Dayananda Saraswatiji.

We have no better reference on that GItA verse. Gone are the days we

used to think we could act without a legitimate desire for results.

VyAsA wouldn't have written the BG without expecting someone to go

through it. The fact that we are all reading, interpreting and

deriving inspiration from it to this day is a standing testimony to

Swamiji's insight and VyAsA's legitimate desire. Then, what to speak

of this electronic forum of unending discussions. There is a

legitimate desire motivating its mechanics!

Please keep up the good work.

PraNAms.

Your own brother in the quest,

Madathil Nair

________________

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Dear Sri Ranjeet-ji,

>

> Namaste,

>

> Reference your kind posting,

>

> Gita verse 2.47, "Karmanieva adhikara: ma phaleshu kadachana"

>

> "Adhikara" or choice is only in Karma i.e. action and not

in "Phala" as Phala is not entirely keeping with the action, and one

has no choice over the result once action has been taken.

>

> I quote the commentary on this verse by Swami Dayanandji, who is

considered as a Teacher following Sankara Tradition, (Bhashya) while

unfolding the Knowledge.

>

> **"Your choice is in action only, never in the results thereof. Do

not be the author of the results of action. Let your attachment not

be inaction"

>

> "Sankara took the karma mentioned in this verse as purely

scripturally enjoyed karma (vaidika-karma) because this was what was

under discussion. We shall look at it as simply karma, rather than

strictly vaidika-karma, since karma yoga allows for it and Sankara

said nothing to rule out the propriety of this approach.

>

> The word adhikara means choice here – your right, something you

have power over. This choice is only with reference to karma, the

action you perform. At no time (ma kadachit) however, is there a

choice with reference to the results of action (phaleshu). Thus, with

reference to all actions, you have a choice, but with reference to

the results thereof, you have no choice whatsoever. This is a very

simple statement of fact. Even for vaidika karma there is a choice:

you can do it, you need not do it, and you can do it differently.

This capacity to do, not to do, and to do it differently makes you a

karma adhikari. An animal on the other hand is not a karma adhikari

because it does not have a choice in its actions, but it is motivated

only by its instincts.

>

> When Krishna told Arjuna that he did not have any choice over the

results of action, he was not giving him a piece of advice; it was a

statement of fact. A statement of fact is not advice, it is teaching.

That water boils at 100 degree centigrade is a statement of fact.

Here also, with reference to actions and their results `your choice

is only in action, never in the results thereof' is a statement of

fact."**

>

> To my understanding this verse, forms the foundation for Karma

Yoga. When I perform karma, though I have Adhikara in such

performance, let me do it with Iswra Arpana Budhi, i.e. as an

offering to God, and when the Phala or Result of that Karma comes,

let me accept it with Prasad Budhi, i.e. something coming from the

altar of God.

>

> To be very honest, no karma can be performed without expectation of

a result. Expectation of a result is the motivation for doing any

karma, whether Loukika or Vaidika.

>

> << A result of an action is something which does not exist while

the

>

> action is

>

> performed.

>

> The results starts when the action end.

>

> If Self-realization is a result of sAdhana, then it ought to have a

>

> beginning.

>

> If it has a beginning, it invariably has an end.

>

> So does Self-Realization has a beginning and an end?>>

>

> I did not mean self-realization is the result of Sadhana.

>

> Sadhana involves Action and there is Purusha Tantra in it. Self-

realization is result of self knowledge and as in the case of any

other knowledge, self knowledge is also Vastu Tantra, i.e. there is

no choice in knowledge taking place when the right pramana is

operated and in the case of Self knowledge, the Pramana is Sabda i.e.

Veda, to be specific the Upanishads or Vedanta. Sadhana/meditation,

etc. cannot lead to any new knowledge, and it has some other purpose

i.e. anthakarana shudhi, which is a pre-requisite for self-knowledge.

The "result" of self-knowledge, in fact, does not take place after

the knowledge has taken place, as just like the knowledge itself, it

was already there, but it was covered ("Apohanam cha") by ignorance.

On removal of the ignorance it shines. There is neither starting in

time nor ending in time for this "Result" as it was, is, and will be

there always. It is "Pranavam".

>

> Hari Om

>

> R.S.Mani

Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch> wrote:Namaste Shri Mani-ji,

>

> You said:

> " There is no action without expecting a result. Even Lord Krishna

while

> teaching Arjuna expected that Arjuna should understand what he was

teaching

> about. "

>

> Please read Gita2.47 - "karmaNyEvAdhi ..."

> Is Lord Krishna asking us to do the impossible?

>

> You said:

> " Although there is no action required for any knowledge to take

place, the

> knowledge, that has taken place in one, leads to some result, and

> self-knowledge is no exception."

>

> A result of an action is something which does not exist while the

action is

> performed.

> The results starts when the action end.

> If Self-realization is a result of sAdhana, then it ought to have a

> beginning.

> If it has a beginning, it invariably has an end.

>

> So does Self-Realization has a beginning and an end?

>

> I agree to your other remarks.

>

> Hari Om

>

> -

> "R.S.MANI"

> To:

> Saturday, September 27, 2003 06:45 AM

> Why or how to remove Anatma to "experience"

self?

>

> Namaste,

>

> Pardon me for my arrogance, but I thought I would share my little

> understanding with the learned members of the group, with regard to

some of

> the postings in the forum.

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at:

advaitin/messages

>

> Your use of is subject to

>

> The New with improved product search

>

September 27, 2003

Namaste Shri Mani-ji,

You said:

" Gita verse 2.47, “Karmanieva adhikara: ma phaleshu kadachana”

“Adhikara” or choice is only in Karma i.e. action and not in “Phala” as

Phala is not entirely keeping with the action, and one has no choice over

the result once action has been taken.

I quote the commentary on this verse by Swami Dayanandji, who is considered

as a Teacher following Sankara Tradition, (Bhashya) while unfolding the

Knowledge.

**“Your choice is in action only, never in the results thereof. Do not be

the author of the results of action. Let your attachment not be inaction” "

Thank you for quoting from Swami Dayanandji's work.

But does the word "adhikAraha" (??) stand for "Choice"? I doubt it.

Anyway I will check with Sankara Bhashyam and other commentaries and revert

on this. From whatever I remember, this is not the meaning of the verse

mentioned in Sankara Bhashyam and also in Swami Chinmayanandaji's

commentary.

You said:

" To be very honest, no karma can be performed without expectation of a

result. Expectation of a result is the motivation for doing any karma,

whether Loukika or Vaidika. "

Is this sentence from Swami Dayanandji's commentary? Or is it your comments?

In Swami Chinmayanandaji's malayalam commentary, he addresses the people who

cannot perceive action without expectation of a result as "vichAra-shUnya"

which means "absense of intellect". It is a malayalam word. I dont know

whether the same word is there in sanskrit. Forgive me for making this

remark. These are Swamiji's words. Please note that we are having this

discussion just to have a firm understanding.

You said:

" I did not mean self-realization is the result of Sadhana.

Sadhana involves Action and there is Purusha Tantra in it. Self-realization

is result of self knowledge and as in the case of any other knowledge, self

knowledge is also Vastu Tantra, i.e. there is no choice in knowledge taking

place when the right pramana is operated and in the case of Self knowledge,

the Pramana is Sabda i.e. Veda, to be specific the Upanishads or Vedanta.

Sadhana/meditation, etc. cannot lead to any new knowledge, and it has some

other purpose i.e. anthakarana shudhi, which is a pre-requisite for

self-knowledge. The “result” of self-knowledge, in fact, does not take place

after the knowledge has taken place, as just like the knowledge itself, it

was already there, but it was covered (“Apohanam cha”) by ignorance. On

removal of the ignorance it shines. There is neither starting in time nor

ending in time for this “Result” as it was, is, and will be there always. It

is “Pranavam”. "

I agree to what you have said here.

I will try to convey what is in my mind using some crude maths.

Suppose (x + y) is our present state where 'x' is Knowledge of the Self and

'y' is the ignorance or experience of the Non-Self. What we achieve through

sAdhana is just the removal of 'y'. Now what remains is just 'x'. Here 'x'

is not a *result* per se. The removal of 'y' didn't *produce* a previously

non-existent 'x'. 'x' was always there.

Maniji, you like to call it a *result* whereas I don't. But our

understanding is basically the same.

Hari Om

September 27, 2003

Namaste Ranjeetji.

VichAra shUnyA is pure, perfect Sanskrit. Malayalam, your and my

native tongue, owes a lot to its mother Sanskrit as does other Indian

languages like Telugu. Besides, to be specific, vichAra shUnya

means 'unthinking' and not 'absence of intellect', because all the

scientists who cannot get on to the advaita bandwagaon claim to have

something called 'intellect'.

I don't think Sw. Chinmayanandaji has said anything different from

what Sw. Dayanandaji has said although they might have parted ways in

their quest. Then, why all these explanations? We do have a firm

understanding that we cannot perform actions without a desire for

legitimate results as VyAsA did when he penned the BG.

PraNAms.

Madathil Nair

___________________

advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar"

<thefinalsearch> wrote:

>

> Is this sentence from Swami Dayanandji's commentary? Or is it your

comments?

> In Swami Chinmayanandaji's malayalam commentary, he addresses the

people who

> cannot perceive action without expectation of a result as "vichAra-

shUnya"

> which means "absense of intellect". It is a malayalam word. I dont

know

> whether the same word is there in sanskrit. Forgive me for making

this

> remark. These are Swamiji's words. Please note that we are having

this

> discussion just to have a firm understanding.

September 27, 2003

Namaste Shri Mani-ji,

Sankara Bhashyam Gita 2.47:

Verse meaning: Your right is for action alone, never for the results. Do not

become the agent of the results of action. May you not have any inclination for

inaction.

Commentary - Your right (adhikArah) is for action alone, not for steadfastness

in Knowledge. Even there, when you are engaged in action, you have never, i.e..

under no conditions whatever a right for the results of action - may you not

have a hankering for the results of action. Whenever you have a hankering for

the fruits of action, you will become the agent of acquiring the results of

action. Do not thus become the agent of acquiring the results of action by being

impelled by the thirst for the results of action, thus he does become the cause

for the production of the results of action. May you not have an inclination for

inaction, thinking, ' If the results of work be not desired, what is the need of

work which involves pain? '.

[ It is not that the Lord is just saying a fact that we don't have choice in

results. It is common knowledge to everyone. If that is so, then there is no

need for cautioning against inaction. If action is not to be undertaken by one

who is under the impulsion of the fruits of action, how then are they to be

undertaken? This is explained in verse 48. Further in verse 49, the Lord says

'Those who thirst for rewards are pitiable (kripaNAh)'. ]

Swami Chinmayanandaji's commentary:

Is action possible without expectation of results? It is impossible, says the

unthinking. The true karma-yogi knows that this verily is the secret of success.

[..........]

In this verse the Lord gives 4 essential advise to the karma-yogi. They are :

1) The karma-yogi should always concentrate only on the action.

2) He should never worry about the results.

3) He should not do any action for achieving any specific result.

4) He should not have an inclination for inaction.

[Please note Slno.3.]

So in my humble opinion as per my understanding of Sankara Bhashyam and Swami

Chinmayanandaji's commentary, the injunction is to engage in action without

expectation of results. That Self-less action is true Karma-yoga.