Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Namaste, Here's a good atheism test which you should try, suggested to me by one of our regulars. Actually, it measures our logical consistency rather than the validity of our views per se. http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm Perhaps one month's topic could be how we would respond to atheists. They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with powerful arguments against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, we don't have 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with powerful arguments > against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, we don't have > 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! Exactly. Can we discuss this in clearvoid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with powerful > > arguments against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, we don't > > have 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! > > > Exactly. Can we discuss this in clearvoid? Certainly. Though here might also be a good place, in some future month, if the moderators like the idea. After all, many of us are technical in some sense, or at least we consider ourselves 'rational', so that we must be able to provide intelligent answers to the atheists! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 advaitin, "Benjamin Root" <orion777ben> wrote: > advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > > > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with powerful > > > arguments against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, we don't > > > have 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! > > > > > > Exactly. Can we discuss this in clearvoid? > > Certainly. Though here might also be a good place, > in some future month, if the moderators like the idea. > After all, many of us are technical in some sense, or > at least we consider ourselves 'rational', so that we must > be able to provide intelligent answers to the atheists! > > Benjamin Namaste Benji, If you are an advaitin then you are already an Atheist, for to be a believer in 'God Concepts', one needs to be into dvaita, or dualism and religion. Atheists are just people that have reached the Advaita stage and do not have a philosophy or sadhana as such. They are not Nastikas, well some may be. They have realised in their own minds that there cannot be a separate God, however they are unaware of the unreality of creation. No philosophy, may be next time around..ONS...Tony. Mind you they all love somebody or something don't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 Namaste Benji. I am afraid an advaitin should keep himself miles away from this test. The first question is: God exists? We are asked to select one of the given answers. My answer as an advaitin is not there as the test questions seem to have been tailor-made by those and for those who languish in theologies and beliefs. Advaita concerns not with believing but knowing. There is nothing but God in Advaita. The word 'exist' with temporal and spatial connotations has nothig to do with that true Oneness without a 'secondness'. PraNAms. Madathil Nair _________________ advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben> wrote: > > Namaste, > > Here's a good atheism test which you should try, suggested to me by > one of our regulars. Actually, it measures our logical consistency > rather than the validity of our views per se. > > http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm > > Perhaps one month's topic could be how we would respond to atheists. > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with powerful arguments > against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, we don't have > 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! > > Hari Om! > Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 respected elders, athiests argue based on "science". in the "science after NEWTON", the western science is apprently far ahead of the east. but in "science in actuality", the east is eons ahead of the west. as far as the science of the MIND is concerned, the west is just just waking up. the western psychology and the psychi atry etc have a long way to go before even they begin to grasp the dimension of the depth to which the eastern science of the mind had advanced,even before newton. you will all agree that the concepts of "godhead"," atman", brahman, parabrahman, duality, advaita etc are purely in the realms of the mind. how can the scientist or the atheist agree that that which exists before your eyes is only maya , and that it actually does not exist. there is no point in "testing" god. GOD cannot be precipitated in a test tube or brought to light in a physics lab, and measured, studied, and tested. god can be "seen ", experienced, felt etc only in the realms of the mind. therefore ., let us not attempt to subject ourselves to the atheist's "test", till the atheist also comes upto the level of advancement of the science of the mind as it obtains in the east. SEEKING YOUR PARDON IF I AM BEING aADHIKAPRASANGI. thanking you, a.v.krshnan. --- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote: > Namaste Benji. > > I am afraid an advaitin should keep himself miles > away from this > test. The first question is: God exists? We are > asked to select > one of the given answers. My answer as an advaitin > is not there as > the test questions seem to have been tailor-made by > those and for > those who languish in theologies and beliefs. > Advaita concerns not > with believing but knowing. There is nothing but > God in Advaita. > The word 'exist' with temporal and spatial > connotations has nothig to > do with that true Oneness without a 'secondness'. > > PraNAms. > > Madathil Nair > _________________ > > > advaitin, Benjamin Root > <orion777ben> > wrote: > > > > Namaste, > > > > Here's a good atheism test which you should try, > suggested to me by > > one of our regulars. Actually, it measures our > logical consistency > > rather than the validity of our views per se. > > > > http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm > > > > Perhaps one month's topic could be how we would > respond to > atheists. > > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, with > powerful > arguments > > against traditional notions of God. Fortunately, > we don't have > > 'traditional' notions, as I understand the term! > > > > Hari Om! > > Benjamin > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 dear sirs, advaitin = athiest???. intersting. indeed!!! an adviatin is not an athiest. an advai tin is one who seeks to unify himself with GOD by keeping GOD in his thoughts always and ever. and once he attaind the union, he himself is god. so ,god was. now, god is. so, where does godlessness arise in advaita? a.v.krshnan. --- Tony OClery <aoclery wrote: > --- In advaitin, "Benjamin Root" > <orion777ben> > wrote: > > advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" > <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > > > > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, > with powerful > > > > arguments against traditional notions of God. > Fortunately, we > don't > > > > have 'traditional' notions, as I understand > the term! > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Can we discuss this in clearvoid? > > > > Certainly. Though here might also be a good > place, > > in some future month, if the moderators like the > idea. > > After all, many of us are technical in some sense, > or > > at least we consider ourselves 'rational', so that > we must > > be able to provide intelligent answers to the > atheists! > > > > Benjamin > > Namaste Benji, > > If you are an advaitin then you are already an > Atheist, for to be a > believer in 'God Concepts', one needs to be into > dvaita, or dualism > and religion. Atheists are just people that have > reached the Advaita > stage and do not have a philosophy or sadhana as > such. They are not > Nastikas, well some may be. They have realised in > their own minds > that there cannot be a separate God, however they > are unaware of the > unreality of creation. No philosophy, may be next > time > around..ONS...Tony. Mind you they all love somebody > or something > don't they? > > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Namaste: We are under the spell of mAyA and Dwaita is also part of the mAyA and that is the reason for 'reasoning' and 'God'! Brahman, the player of mAyA detaches Himself while playing. Shankara's bhjagovindham explains this beautifully, bhajagovindaM bhajagovindaM govindaM bhajamuuDhamate . saMpraapte sannihite kaale nahi nahi rakshati DukRiJNkaraNe .. (1) Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda, Worship Govinda. Oh fool ! Rules of logic and grammar will not save you at the time of your death. ......... ......... bhajagovindaM bhajagovindaM govindaM bhajamuuDhamate . naamasmaraNaadanyamupaayaM nahi pashyaamo bhavataraNe .. (33) Worship Govinda, worship Govinda, worship Govinda, Oh fool ! Other than chanting the Lord's names, there is no other way to cross the life's ocean. warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote: > > Namaste Benji, > > If you are an advaitin then you are already an Atheist, for to be a > believer in 'God Concepts', one needs to be into dvaita, or dualism > and religion. Atheists are just people that have reached the Advaita > stage and do not have a philosophy or sadhana as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 Namaste, Sri Nair said: I am afraid an advaitin should keep himself miles away from this test. The first question is: God exists? We are asked to select one of the given answers. My answer as an advaitin is not there as the test questions seem to have been tailor-made by those and for those who languish in theologies and beliefs. Advaita concerns not with believing but knowing. ... Sri Tony said: If you are an advaitin then you are already an Atheist, for to be a believer in 'God Concepts', one needs to be into dvaita, or dualism and religion. Atheists are just people that have reached the Advaita stage and do not have a philosophy or sadhana as such. They are not Nastikas, well some may be... My comments: As I said, the topic of atheism (and how or whether to refute it) is quite interesting from the Advaitin point of view. This was just a suggestion on my part for a possible future topic. Discussing might shed an interesting and revealing new light on the topic... Anyhow, I'll give my quick take on it, which basically agrees with the above. Advaita is concerned with realizing the inherent potentiality of our consciousness, not with some pie-in-the-sky reward from a bearded man for good behavior. (Of course, I oversimplify those other religions to make a humorous point.) The beauty of this is that we really need not worry about dogma at all. Instead we should try to achieve realization now, in the present moment, with our actual consciousness as it actually is. What could be more 'scientific' than that? And whatever happens after death will happen and take care of itself. By the way, it is a similar 'rational' attitude which I find so appealing in Buddhism, but I won't belabor that. Yes, there are some differences of emphasis between Advaita and the various Buddhisms... I might add one other thing, though. I don't denigrate other religions, with their dogma. Rather, I interpret the various dogmas as the symbolic expression of a certain level of consciousness. Humanity is evolving, with different groups at different rates. But at some point, dogmas become a real problem when they lead to intolerant politics. Hey, there's another possible topic: Advaita and Evolution. How do the two interrelate? Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 I think the problem is coming because atheism has differnt definitions in different places. In India, Astika was used as the Sanskrit equivalent for "those philosophical schools which believe in Atman" while "nAstika" was used the Sanskrit equivalent for "those philosophical schools which do not believe in Atman". Astika is linked to "asti" = to be nAstika is linked to "na asti" = not to be Obviously, the being or non-being of an Atman (which is different from the body) is being signified by the words. Thus advaita is an Astika school and buddhism is a nAstika school, by this definition. However, from a traditional hindu point of view, we also have - Astika = those who believe in the vedas nAstika = those who do not believe in the vedas Jainism for instance comes in the Astika schools if the first definition is used and in the nAstika schools if the second definition is used. Theism and atheism are terms which have been traditionally used in the west for believers and non-believers of the WESTERN CONCEPTS OF GOD. These terms need not apply strictly to Indian schools as Indian schools have their own unique characteristics. In the present day, Astika and nAstika have come to mean "theist" and "atheist" respectively, but this is not strictly correct. sAmkhya for instance,is an Astika school as it believes in the vedas as well as an Atman. But it is atheistic as it does not believe in a supreme Lord. Here,the Atman of the sAmkhya is the individual Self only. sAmkhya,by the way, is a dualistic school which believes in multiple selves, each separate from the other and also separate from prakRti or matter. So is advaita theistic or atheistic? A very difficult question. Consider this - 1. advaita believes in Atman. 2. advaita believes in vedas. 3. advaita believes in a supreme Lord, but states that the supreme Lord is an unreal supreimposition on Atman/brahman. 4. advaita does not believe in a Lord who is essentially different from the our own Self. 5. advaita believes in the practical utility of "divine" grace for liberation. Considering all these I dont think advaita can be really classified as a theistic or an atheistic school, though in the traditional Indian classification, it is an Astika school. Similarly I may venture to add here that Atman/brahman of advaita cannot be called God. Afterall, we cannot expect to have strict English translations for all the concepts that have originated in India. (The converse could also be true) I appreciate comments. advaitin, av krshnan <avkrshnan> wrote: > > dear sirs, > advaitin = athiest???. intersting. indeed!!! > an adviatin is not an athiest. > an advai > tin is one who seeks to unify himself with GOD by > keeping GOD in his thoughts always and ever. > and once he attaind the union, he himself > is god. > so ,god was. now, god is. > so, where does godlessness arise in advaita? > a.v.krshnan. --- Tony OClery <aoclery> wrote: > --- In > advaitin, "Benjamin Root" > > <orion777ben> > > wrote: > > > advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" > > <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > > > > > They do tend to be rather intelligent people, > > with powerful > > > > > arguments against traditional notions of God. > > Fortunately, we > > don't > > > > > have 'traditional' notions, as I understand > > the term! > > > > > > > > > > > > Exactly. Can we discuss this in clearvoid? > > > > > > Certainly. Though here might also be a good > > place, > > > in some future month, if the moderators like the > > idea. > > > After all, many of us are technical in some sense, > > or > > > at least we consider ourselves 'rational', so that > > we must > > > be able to provide intelligent answers to the > > atheists! > > > > > > Benjamin > > > > Namaste Benji, > > > > If you are an advaitin then you are already an > > Atheist, for to be a > > believer in 'God Concepts', one needs to be into > > dvaita, or dualism > > and religion. Atheists are just people that have > > reached the Advaita > > stage and do not have a philosophy or sadhana as > > such. They are not > > Nastikas, well some may be. They have realised in > > their own minds > > that there cannot be a separate God, however they > > are unaware of the > > unreality of creation. No philosophy, may be next > > time > > around..ONS...Tony. Mind you they all love somebody > > or something > > don't they? > > > > > > > > ____________________ __ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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