Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch> wrote: > Namaste to all, > In deep-sleep, the ignorance (non-apprehension of the Self) is still present, but the mis-apprehension is not present. Since removal of ignorance is Self-realization, this verse would mean that deep- sleep is Self-realization which is absurd. > > So the deep-sleep mentioned here is not to be literally taken as the one experienced by all of us every night. > This is a key point where Sri. Atmananda seems to differ from Traditional Advaita. Sri. Atmananda vehemently denies the notion that there is ignorance in deep sleep. The only positive experience during deep sleep is that of bliss, and any notion of ignorance is an inference after coming out of the deep sleep. (Maybe Ananda Wood or Greg can expand on this view). Quoted below is an excerpt from "Sri. Atmananda's talks - 1951 to 1959" compiled by NityaTrupta : Q: Is there Ajnana in Deep Sleep? A: No! The absence of any objective perception, thought or feeling which is wrongly called nothingness is the Swarupa of real unconditioned happiness. Here, happiness alone is the positive experience in deep sleep and the sense of nothingness is a relative inference when out of it. Thus there is in fact no ajnana in deep sleep. The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, gross or subtle. To know any object means not to know the Truth. From the knowledge of an object, if the object part is discarded, what remains is pure knowledge alone, which is the essence and the background of all objects as well as of myself. The Jnana of any one object may also be said to be the Ajnana of all other objects. In that sense, the Jnana of Truth and Happiness in deep sleep can also be said to be the Ajnana of all objects. Thus happiness alone is the experience in deep sleep. Pranaams, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Namaste Nairji, Sri Atmanandaji's statement seems to be supported by the following verse from the upanishad. That is the state of deep sleep wherein one asleep neitherdesires any object nor sees any dream. The third quarter is Prajna, whose sphere is deep sleep, in whom all experiences become unified, who is, verily, a mass of consciousness, who is full of bliss and experiences bliss and who is the door leading to the knowledge of dreaming and waking. 5. Mandukya Upanishad best regards, K Kathirasan > > rajkumarknair [sMTP:rajkumarknair] > Tuesday, October 21, 2003 2:34 PM > advaitin > Is there ignorance in deep sleep ? > > advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar" > <thefinalsearch> wrote: > > Namaste to all, > > In deep-sleep, the ignorance (non-apprehension of the Self) is > still present, but the mis-apprehension is not present. Since removal > of ignorance is Self-realization, this verse would mean that deep- > sleep is Self-realization which is absurd. > > > > So the deep-sleep mentioned here is not to be literally taken as > the one experienced by all of us every night. > > > > This is a key point where Sri. Atmananda seems to differ from > Traditional Advaita. Sri. Atmananda vehemently denies the notion > that there is ignorance in deep sleep. The only positive experience > during deep sleep is that of bliss, and any notion of ignorance is an > inference after coming out of the deep sleep. (Maybe Ananda Wood or > Greg can expand on this view). > > Quoted below is an excerpt from "Sri. Atmananda's talks - 1951 to > 1959" compiled by NityaTrupta : > > Q: Is there Ajnana in Deep Sleep? > A: No! The absence of any objective perception, thought or feeling > which is wrongly called nothingness is the Swarupa of real > unconditioned happiness. Here, happiness alone is the positive > experience in deep sleep and the sense of nothingness is a relative > inference when out of it. Thus there is in fact no ajnana in deep > sleep. The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, gross or subtle. To > know any object means not to know the Truth. From the knowledge of an > object, if the object part is discarded, what remains is pure > knowledge alone, which is the essence and the background of all > objects as well as of myself. The Jnana of any one object may also be > said to be the Ajnana of all other objects. In that sense, the Jnana > of Truth and Happiness in deep sleep can also be said to be the > Ajnana of all objects. Thus happiness alone is the experience in deep > sleep. > > Pranaams, > Raj. > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 At 06:33 AM 10/21/2003 +0000, rajkumarknair wrote: >This is a key point where Sri. Atmananda seems to differ from >Traditional Advaita. Sri. Atmananda vehemently denies the notion >that there is ignorance in deep sleep. The only positive experience >during deep sleep is that of bliss, and any notion of ignorance is an >inference after coming out of the deep sleep. (Maybe Ananda Wood or >Greg can expand on this view). Hello Raj, I agree that it's a different slant. Here's my understanding of how Atmananda uses this approach. I haven't been so fortunate as Anandaji to meet Sri Atmananda. But in the teachings that have come my way, it seems to me that Sri Atmananda does use the notion of deep sleep in a different way from traditional advaita vedanta, as you say. It's a teaching tool when Atmananda likens deep sleep to the unconditioned happiness of the Self. One experiences the same objectlessness in deep sleep as in nirvikalpa samadhi, but deep sleep is an experience available to all. Often, in progressive paths, students are taught that to get a taste of this objectlessness, one must practice meditation and be able to attain nirvikalpa samadhi. But Sri Atmananda teaches the direct path, where such long meditation practice is not needed. So he endeavors to use an experience had by everyone to illustrate objectlessness. Deep sleep merely serves as an example or metaphor of how objectlessness tastes or feels. The purpose is not to remain in deep sleep perpetually! Much of Sri Atmananda's "direct-path" teaching is to prompt the understanding that regardless of the current seeming state (waking, dreaming, deep sleep), there is only ever objectlessness, consciousness. But he refers the student to deep sleep so the student can get a taste. Anandaji, do you have any thoughts on this? Om! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Sleep is the absence of mind. If the mind that is absent is an ignorant mind that mind has slept. And if the mind is the realized mind that mind has slept. If one says ignorance is there in sleep, yes it remains as such - the ignorant mind will remain ignorant and, when awakened from sleep, will project itself as ignorant only. The realized mind when sleeps, it sleeps as such, and when awakened it will rise up as the realized mind. One way to look at it is- from the ignorant mind, it says I slept very well and I did not know any thing. If the realized mind is asked - it will say -I slept very well and there was no-thing there since things are nothing but thoughts and thoughts are nothing but mind. It is realization of the absence of the mind. Is there ignorance in the deep sleep - the answer depends on who is answering. If I understand Atmaanandaji - absence of duality is also experience of non-duality and hence lack of unhappiness. But experience is not knowledge - one requires knowledge of that experience. Hence from his point he is right! But Advaita is non-duality in spite of duality - that is what self-realization is - or aham Braham asmi is. Implication is once realized, one can have dualty or non-duality. Realized 'person' has realized that there is only one - him - in spite many there or not! Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Ignorance can be inferred to be present in deep sleep because deep sleep is similar to self-annihilation. One may refer to the dialogue between Indra and PrajApati in the chhAndogya upanishad. Sleep is also related to the quality of tamas,vide the bhagavad gIta. If ignorance is completely absent in deep sleep, then any person who goes into that state is liberated for eternity. But that is not the case. So also we can infer ignorance in deep sleep. To simplify matters, since we know nothing in deep sleep, therefore we are still ignorant in that state. advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair> wrote: > advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar" > <thefinalsearch> wrote: > > Namaste to all, > > In deep-sleep, the ignorance (non-apprehension of the Self) is > still present, but the mis-apprehension is not present. Since removal > of ignorance is Self-realization, this verse would mean that deep- > sleep is Self-realization which is absurd. > > > > So the deep-sleep mentioned here is not to be literally taken as > the one experienced by all of us every night. > > > > This is a key point where Sri. Atmananda seems to differ from > Traditional Advaita. Sri. Atmananda vehemently denies the notion > that there is ignorance in deep sleep. The only positive experience > during deep sleep is that of bliss, and any notion of ignorance is an > inference after coming out of the deep sleep. (Maybe Ananda Wood or > Greg can expand on this view). > > Quoted below is an excerpt from "Sri. Atmananda's talks - 1951 to > 1959" compiled by NityaTrupta : > > Q: Is there Ajnana in Deep Sleep? > A: No! The absence of any objective perception, thought or feeling > which is wrongly called nothingness is the Swarupa of real > unconditioned happiness. Here, happiness alone is the positive > experience in deep sleep and the sense of nothingness is a relative > inference when out of it. Thus there is in fact no ajnana in deep > sleep. The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, gross or subtle. To > know any object means not to know the Truth. From the knowledge of an > object, if the object part is discarded, what remains is pure > knowledge alone, which is the essence and the background of all > objects as well as of myself. The Jnana of any one object may also be > said to be the Ajnana of all other objects. In that sense, the Jnana > of Truth and Happiness in deep sleep can also be said to be the > Ajnana of all objects. Thus happiness alone is the experience in deep > sleep. > > Pranaams, > Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 To no one in particular: What is the use of thinking or philosophizing about this? Try to go into samadhi when you are about to fall asleep and find out the truth yourself. It is like asking others how a mango tastes like when it is right in front of you. Take a bite! :-) Love Jan At 21.10.03-05:40 PM rajkumarknair wrote: >Quoted below is an excerpt from "Sri. Atmananda's talks - 1951 to >1959" compiled by NityaTrupta : > >Q: Is there Ajnana in Deep Sleep? >A: No! The absence of any objective perception, thought or feeling >which is wrongly called nothingness is the Swarupa of real >unconditioned happiness. Here, happiness alone is the positive >experience in deep sleep and the sense of nothingness is a relative >inference when out of it. Thus there is in fact no ajnana in deep >sleep. The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, gross or subtle. To >know any object means not to know the Truth. From the knowledge of an >object, if the object part is discarded, what remains is pure >knowledge alone, which is the essence and the background of all >objects as well as of myself. The Jnana of any one object may also be >said to be the Ajnana of all other objects. In that sense, the Jnana >of Truth and Happiness in deep sleep can also be said to be the >Ajnana of all objects. Thus happiness alone is the experience in deep >sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Dear knowONE, You offer excellent advice Jan. Come one people!!!!! We all know about sleep. EveryONE does it. The great advaitists make such a "to do" about DEEP SLEEP. It's just sleep. Also I'm with you on the samadhi point Jan. Samadhi makes a pile of dung out of all of the intellectualism. But I must admit that if people get some entertainment out of the intellectual rigmarole then fine and dandy. Love, michael --- Jan Sultan <swork wrote: > To no one in particular: > > What is the use of thinking or philosophizing about > this? Try to go into samadhi when you are about to > fall asleep and find out the truth yourself. It is > like asking others how a mango tastes like when it > is right in front of you. Take a bite! :-) > > Love > Jan > > At 21.10.03-05:40 PM rajkumarknair wrote: > >Quoted below is an excerpt from "Sri. Atmananda's > talks - 1951 to > >1959" compiled by NityaTrupta : > > > >Q: Is there Ajnana in Deep Sleep? > >A: No! The absence of any objective perception, > thought or feeling > >which is wrongly called nothingness is the Swarupa > of real > >unconditioned happiness. Here, happiness alone is > the positive > >experience in deep sleep and the sense of > nothingness is a relative > >inference when out of it. Thus there is in fact no > ajnana in deep > >sleep. The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, > gross or subtle. To > >know any object means not to know the Truth. From > the knowledge of an > >object, if the object part is discarded, what > remains is pure > >knowledge alone, which is the essence and the > background of all > >objects as well as of myself. The Jnana of any one > object may also be > >said to be the Ajnana of all other objects. In that > sense, the Jnana > >of Truth and Happiness in deep sleep can also be > said to be the > >Ajnana of all objects. Thus happiness alone is the > experience in deep > >sleep. > > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 entaro mahaanubhaavulu, the difference between sleep and deep sleep [yoga nidra= the state in which mahavishnu is extant in his ananthashayanam] can be understood if you read " AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI " by YOGANANDA. Also books on the subject of soul , by DALAL, being excerpts from the works of AURABINDO and the MOTHER. i am sure i am being an adhikaprasangi , and all the members of this group have read these books, and are much more evolved than what my limited perception will allow me to understand. respecfully, a.v.krshnan. ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Dear Sri Krshnan and ALL, Whereas Sri Yogananda and Sri Aurobindo are two of the great guiding lights of modern day humanity, and their writings are great gifts to mankind, to truly understand sleep (deep and dream) one only needs to sleep. My point is that except for academic matters, true understanding of life never occurs from reading and hearing, but only from living. Love, michael --- av krshnan <avkrshnan wrote: > > entaro mahaanubhaavulu, > the difference between sleep > and > deep sleep [yoga nidra= the state in which > mahavishnu > is extant in his ananthashayanam] can be understood > if > you read " AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI " by YOGANANDA. > Also books on the subject of > soul , by DALAL, being excerpts from the works of > AURABINDO and the MOTHER. > i am sure i am being an > adhikaprasangi , and all the members of this group > have read these books, and are much more evolved > than > what my limited perception will allow me to > understand. > respecfully, > a.v.krshnan. > > > > > > ______________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? > Get the FREE > Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Namaste: The purpose of the discourse of Bhagavad Gita by Lord Krishna to Arjuna is to make him realize, 'not by words but by deeds!' Reading even in academic matters is a part of living and for living. The scriptures never deny the fact that 'reading is the means and not the end to living.' In the Indian context, leaders such as Tilak and Mahatma Gandhi lived by the Gita after reading it almost everyday! regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > > My point is that except for academic matters, true > understanding of life never occurs from reading and > hearing, but only from living. > > Love, > > michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Namaste to all, I hope a pinch of Sankara Bhashyam will be useful. Shri Kathirasanji's mail took me to verse 5 of mAndUkya upanishad wherein Sankaracharya explains the different facets of deep-sleep. Acharya first defines 'sleep' as 'unawareness of Reality' which is common in all the three states of waking, dreaming and deep-sleep. Then he continues saying that the difference in deep-sleep lies only in the absence of dream (perception of things otherwise than what they are) and desire for enjoyable things. Next Acharya moves on to the Ananda(bliss) aspect of deep-sleep. He says that the joy experienced in deep-sleep is ' caused by the absence of the misery involved in the effort of the mind vibrating as the objects and their experiencer; but he is not Bliss itself, since the joy is not absolute.' (The absolute Bliss attained only by Self-realization) Acharya continues, ' Just as in common parlance, one remaining free from effort is said to be happy or 'Anandabhuk' , an experiencer of joy, so this one, too is called Anandabhuk, for by him is enjoyed this state that consists in extreme freedom from effort, in accordance with the Vedic text, ' this is its supreme bliss ' (Br. IV iii.32) . ' Now coming to the Ignorance part of deep-sleep. ' Those two, viz vishva and taijasa, are held to be conditioned by cause and effect. prAjna is conditioned by cause. But both these do not exist in tUriya. ' - verse 11, gauDapAda's kArika According to our Acharya, the cause and effect ( seed and fruit ) mentioned here is non-apprehension and mis-apprehension of Reality respectively. The deep-sleep state is condioned by the cause, viz non-apprehension of Reality. In other words, the non-apprehension of Reality alone is the cause of bringing about the state of deep-sleep ! The commentary to the 13th verse explains how deep-sleep is different from the 4th state of tUriya even though absence of duality prevails in both the states. Interesting reading. Shri Rajkumarji quotes from Shri Atmanandaji's teachings : " The Ajnana of Truth is Jnana of objects, gross or subtle. " If jnAna of external things is seen as 'buddhi vritti' which causes agitations, then no doubt the absence of agitations will lead to happiness. Since there are no external objects to perceive in deep-sleep, obviously the agitations wont be there and it will be a state of bliss (with the small 'b'). But the ajnAna of objects wont necessarily bring in ' jnAna of Truth ' . Dear Jan Sultan-ji and Micheal Bowes-ji, Sankaracharya's advaitic philosophy is not tantric or yoga philosophy. Here, in this jnAna yoga the scriptures is the guide and the path is sravaNa, manana and nidhishyAsa. The practise of meditation is good. But it should not be undertaken like a daily routine physical exercise, say half an hour in the morning and evening! A person with a reflecting mind on hearing the scriptures will naturally move on to meditation. It is a natural evolution and not a forced revolution. Long before Shri Nisargadatta-ji, Lord Krishna himself tells us in Bhagavat Gita "To a knower of Brahman, the veda-s are only as much useful as a well when water is flooding all around ". But please note that it is for a 'knower of Brahman' and not for anyone else. And regarding the discussions going on here, please reflect upon the verse from panchdasi - "tad chinthanam tad kathanam anyOnyam tad prabOdhanam". Hari Om Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 In a message dated 10/22/2003 6:57:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, orion777ben writes: > mAyA theory On Maya theory, Bhagavad Gita has plenty to say and is perhaps most authoritative. Below are excerpts from Chapter3 of my book titled "People Super Highway; the Mystique & Quest of Soul" that are devoted to Bhagavad Gita's verses on Maya along with my commentary. ------------------ The unintelligent think of me, the non-manifest, as having manifestation, knowing not my higher, immutable and most excellent nature. I am not manifest to all as I am veiled by the Yoga Maya - the deluded world can not know me, the unborn and imperishable. -Maya is an illusion created because of the limited capacity of the senses and the intellect; the senses, intellect, and the mind together start believing that the information brought in by the senses is the entire truth - the fundamental nature of reality is that it is unborn, non-manifest, and unchanging. -The Brahman is imperishable, the supreme being whose essential nature is called self-knowledge (adhyatman). -Karma causes the many life spans of beings in order to have them attain self-knowledge of "you do not belong to yourself; yourself belongs to the totality." The Lord dwells (abides) in the hearts of all beings, causing all beings, by his illusive power (Maya), to revolve as if mounted on a wheel. -God and his inscrutable Maya constitute the entire universe but Maya hides God's real nature. -Maya is the manifestation-potentiality state of God, the infinite being, like that shown by a rain drop in the process of formation - the human's comprehension power is limited to grasping the illusive power of Maya. -Maya is dynamic and makes everyone revolve; when we are at peace within ourselves, we are in the light of God - however, when the mind is restless, it is caught in Maya. -Anything that leads us to our center is the grace of God, anything that tempts us away from there is the work of Maya. Pleasure, prosperity and success make us extrovert; they are the tempting baits of Maya that introduce distance between God and us. Pain, adversity and failure on the other hand bring us back to ourselves -- they are the signs of God's grace. ---- On this and related subjects, please visit my eBook site at: <A HREF="http://www.PeopleSuperHighway.com">http://www.PeopleSuperHighway.com</A> Best Regards, Dave Anand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Shri Rajkumar, Shri Kathirasan and Greg have expressed the 'vicara marga' or 'direct path' view of deep sleep, so simply and clearly that it seems sad to elaborate with any further explanation. But, in the advaita tradition, there is of course another view that can seem contradictory, as Shri Ranjeet, Shri Madathil Nair, Shri Sadananda and Shri Narayana have pointed out. So it might help to try seeing how the views are different and how some reconciliation may be sought. Shri Atmananda spoke of two approaches in advaita -- one 'cosmological' and the other 'direct'. The cosmological approach builds better pictures of the world, on the basis of a non-dual grounding that these better pictures emphasize. This approach is useful to prescribe exercises for expanding mind and purifying character, in preparation for a searching back into a non-dual basis that the pictures emphasize. This cosmological approach is 'indirect', in the sense that it builds up conceptual pictures and cultivates a seeker's personality, in order to investigate back down into an underlying truth from which all conceiving and improvement must arise. In the direct approach, the improvement of world-pictures and personality is left to itself. There is a consuming dissatisfaction and skepticism towards the current picture in which the enquiry is presently conceived. And the aim of questioning is not a better picture, to make one say or do things better. Instead the investigation asks for what is clearly and exactly true, in the story that the current picture tells. What part of the story is mere make believe, producing a confused and misleading show? And what plain truth remains, when the misconception and confusion have been cleared? In classical advaita, the cosmological approach is described by the 'mAyA' theory of Shri Shankara. The theory says that the world is caused by ignorance, superimposed upon non-dual consciousness. The world is thus pictured as 'mAyA' or 'constructed artifice', which is a confused mixture of the real and the unreal. What's real is pure consciousness, without a second thing mixed into it. What's unreal are the changing appearances that body, sense and mind construct, through their contrived perceptions and conceptions of physical and mental objects in the world. The constructed unreality results from ignorance -- as it covers up its own underlying truth of consciousness, on which all changing appearances are superimposed. When the world is seen like this, as caused by ignorance, then that ignorance is associated with the state of deep sleep. Deep sleep is then described as a state of 'causal ignorance' -- where an underlying depth of experience seems to hide itself away, in a darkness that is blank and unconscious. This is similar to the concept of the 'unconscious' in modern psychology. This 'unconscious' is a hidden and obscure depth, from which are caused apparent feelings, thoughts and perceptions at the surface of the mind. In this way, the 'mAyA' theory and its 'causal ignorance' are essentially psychological. They describe the apparent world as arising psychologically, from a hidden depth of mind (both individual and universal). Shri Shankara is quite explicit that this psychological arising is based on ignorance, thus pointing out that it must not be taken too seriously or too literally. Its consideration is only a preliminary or intermediate step, on the way to a more exact enquiry that is directly philosophical. In viveka-cUDAmaNi (31), Shri Shankara gives a general description of such direct enquiry: "sva-svarUpAnusandhAnam bhaktir ity abhidhIyate" This could be somewhat freely translated as follows: "To question one's own truth, to ask what's there: that is the love of those who ask with care." Shri Shankara acknowledges that this is a final way to truth. But it leads beyond the mAyA theory, to the ajAtivAda reasoning that the apparent world has not actually arisen. Though the world seems caused by ignorance which has been superimposed on consciousness, in fact the world and its causal ignorance do not occur. Although there seems to be a covering of consciousness by ignorance, that seeming too is false. What seems to be a covering of ignorance is in truth pure consciousness and nothing else at all. As the enquiry thus turns directly back into its source, the seeming 'unconsciousness' of sleep can be questioned and thus seen quite differently. As Shri Atmananda put it once, when it's said that someone or something is 'unconscious' what's actually meant is 'unconscious of objects'. In an 'unconscious' state -- or at an 'unconscious' depth of mind -- what's lacking is not consciousness itself, but only seeming objects added from outside. Thus, what seems to be 'unconsciousness' turns out in truth to be pure consciousness, shining all alone, by its own light. That self-shining is described in 'Atma Darshan', chapter 17: "In the deep sleep state and whenever any desire is accomplished, I alone shine as the undisturbed peace and happiness.... Just before and just after every thought and feeling, I shine in My own glory by Myself. It is in Me that thoughts and feelings rise and set.... I am the Light of Consciousness in all thoughts and perceptions and the Light of Love in all feelings." Accordingly, there is a prakriya whereby non-dual truth is seen in the gaps of perception -- as in deep sleep, in the interval between succeeding thoughts, in pure happiness or peace or love where all desires are dissolved. It is not of course any changing state or passing interval that matters, but what shines unchanging there, beyond all time and cause. What shines is seen first in the seeming gaps, where no picturing appears. Seen thus free of picturing, it turns out to be unchanging and pervading everywhere. It is then realized as the changeless background of all changing pictures, none of which is ultimately different in the least from it. Is there a genuine contradiction here with classical or traditional advaita? I don't see that there is, but perhaps others might. Ananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Namaste, Sri Ananda said: "Shri Shankara acknowledges that this is a final way to truth. But it leads beyond the mAyA theory, to the ajAtivAda reasoning that the apparent world has not actually arisen. Though the world seems caused by ignorance which has been superimposed on consciousness, in fact the world and its causal ignorance do not occur. Although there seems to be a covering of consciousness by ignorance, that seeming too is false. What seems to be a covering of ignorance is in truth pure consciousness and nothing else at all." My comments: I interpret mAyA as the false mental projection of an external, objective reality upon the appearances that arise in consciousness. I interpret ajAtivAda as the realization that these appearances are only appearances in consciousness. Is this not saying the same thing in a different way? In both cases, it is clearly recognized that there is no reality other than consciousness. Nothing 'exists' (mAyA) or 'arises' or 'occurs' or is 'created' (ajAtivAda) as an objective reality. Stated different, and using your words, mAyA says that the 'world seems caused by ignorance ... superimposed on consciousness' while ajAtivAda says that 'the world and its causal ignorance do not occur'. But to say that something only *seems* to occur is to say that it does not in fact occur. It is like an illusion or a dream. I see no significant difference between these different interpretations of Advaita. Please correct me if I am mistaken. Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Dear Sri Ranjeet Sankar, --- Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch wrote: SNIP > > And regarding the discussions going on here, please > reflect upon the verse from panchdasi - "tad > chinthanam tad kathanam anyOnyam tad prabOdhanam". > Dear Friend, please forgive me. I do not know Sanskrit. Would you so kindly provide the translation of the preceding verse, or please provide the chapter and verse from Panchdasi? Thank you kindly, michael > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote: > > > Accordingly, there is a prakriya whereby non-dual truth is seen in the gaps of > perception -- as in deep sleep, in the interval between succeeding thoughts, in pure > happiness or peace or love where all desires are dissolved. It is not of course any > changing state or passing interval that matters, but what shines unchanging there, beyond > all time and cause. > > What shines is seen first in the seeming gaps, where no picturing appears. Seen thus free > of picturing, it turns out to be unchanging and pervading everywhere. It is then realized > as the changeless background of all changing pictures, none of which is ultimately > different in the least from it. > > Ananda Beautiful, Anandaji, Beautiful!. This is exactly the way Meditation has been described in the advaita tradition. The real crux of the process of dhyAna, the seventh limb of ashTAnga- Yoga is the art of maintaining perfect continuity between successive thought waves so that there is no gap or interval and so that there is throughout only one identical thought, no more a wave which rises and falls. 'When similar thought waves arise in succession without any gaps between them, that is when the mind becomes one-pointed' says Patanjali's sutra III - 12. (tatah punaH shAntoditau tulya- pratyayau cittas-yaikAgrathA-pariNAmaH). All the minor thought waves are now swallowed by one great 'flat' wave of concentration on one object and no other. The meditator keeps his attention on the knower and watches the thought waves arising and subsiding in the mind. He becomes aware that between any two thoughts there is a gap. In this gap, the triad of the knower, known and knowledge (jnAtA, jneyam, jnAnam) disappear and there is only the knower. This is pure Oneness, where no division between subject and the absence of object or between any two of knower, knowledge and known remains. The truth is realized that the knower alone exists. When the object and the power of knowing reappear, it is the knower which releases them out of itself and then enjoys its own creation. In the gap between thoughts there is only the knower. The 'flat wave of concentration' without any gaps is this state of Oneness of the knower in whom the other two parts of the triad have merged. It is then we need a total involvement of the heart and a self-abnegating cooperation of the mind. If a movie camera shoots a continuous piece without moving the camera and without the object moving even a bit, the projection of this film will look like a still photograph with all the identical images fused into one. It is interesting to note that when the Paramacharya talks about this last stage of meditation, he really cannot resist quoting Adi Shankara's famous phrase for this: `samAna-pratyaya-kAraNaM'. (BS.B. IV-1-7-8 and Gita BhashyaM XII – 3). Just as water flows continuously in one direction, just as oil flows without any perturbation from one level to a lower level the thought process has to flow in the same direction, without any gap or perturbation. The science of training the mind and the heart to do this is meditation. PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 advaitin, Michael Bowes <rmichaelbowes> wrote: > Dear Sri Ranjeet Sankar, > > > --- Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch> wrote: > SNIP > > > > And regarding the discussions going on here, please > > reflect upon the verse from panchdasi - "tad > > chinthanam tad kathanam anyOnyam tad prabOdhanam". > > > Dear Friend, please forgive me. I do not know > Sanskrit. Would you so kindly provide the > translation of the preceding verse, or please provide > the chapter and verse from Panchdasi? > > Thank you kindly, > > michael > Namaste. Michael-ji and Ranjeetji The quotation means, literally: The thought of that, The talk about that, the mutual alerting of one another about that. The context is the winding up of Panchadashi. It is not enough to be scholarly about all the advaita that is talked about. It is not enough to be able to listen to a lot of profound material about Brahman. The most important thing is to remember what has been talked about, what has been taught. It is necessary to talk about it to others. It is necessary to constantly think about it. It is also necessary to revert to it by talking to one another about it. This, the Panchadashi says is called 'Brahma-abhyAsa'. The English translation of this expression could be: 'Practising of Brahman'. But that translation does not say all that 'Brahma-abhyasa' says. It indeed says that this is the way to be constantly working towards the stage of being in brahman. In fact it appears to give a pat on the back to what most of the posts in advaitin-group are doing! I do not have the copy of Panchadashi with me. But I know it occurs almost at the very end of the work. PraNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Thank you Sir. regards, michael SNIP > Namaste. Michael-ji and Ranjeetji > > The quotation means, literally: The thought of that, > The talk about > that, the mutual alerting of one another about that. > > The context is the winding up of Panchadashi. It is > not enough to be > scholarly about all the advaita that is talked > about. It is not > enough to be able to listen to a lot of profound > material about > Brahman. The most important thing is to remember > what has been > talked about, what has been taught. It is necessary > to talk about it > to others. It is necessary to constantly think about > it. It is also > necessary to revert to it by talking to one another > about it. This, > the Panchadashi says is called 'Brahma-abhyAsa'. The > English > translation of this expression could be: 'Practising > of Brahman'. > But that translation does not say all that > 'Brahma-abhyasa' says. It > indeed says that this is the way to be constantly > working towards > the stage of being in brahman. In fact it appears to > give a pat on > the back to what most of the posts in advaitin-group > are doing! > > I do not have the copy of Panchadashi with me. But I > know it occurs > almost at the very end of the work. > > PraNAms to all advaitins > profvk > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Namaste Shri Anandaji. You wrote thus in your post # 19432 of 22nd October 2003: QUOTE Accordingly, there is a prakriya whereby non-dual truth is seen in the gaps of perception -- as in deep sleep, in the interval between succeeding thoughts, in pure happiness or peace or love where all desires are dissolved. It is not of course any changing state or passing interval that matters, but what shines unchanging there, beyond all time and cause. What shines is seen first in the seeming gaps, where no picturing appears. Seen thus free of picturing, it turns out to be unchanging and pervading everywhere. It is then realized as the changeless background of all changing pictures, none of which is ultimately different in the least from it. Is there a genuine contradiction here with classical or traditional advaita? I don't see that there is, but perhaps others might. UNQUOTE Classical or traditional advaita teachers also point at the gap between two consecutive thoughts. In fact, I first heard this explanation from a renowned Advaitin. There is, therefore, no contradiction. However, there is a danger of all this being misunderstood for the following reasons although I can fully appreciate the ultimate meaning and spirit of your post: 1. Any understanding of such gaps is again an objectification. Then, we will have to look for the understander of the gaps. 2. The gaps owe their existence and essence to the thoughts flanking them. Then, they are not representative of any substratum, because like space becoming non-existent in the absence of events/objects, this `substratum' will also vanish when thoughts are removed. It is therefore advisable not to grant the gaps any more importance than the thoughts. A more practicable route will be to grant the gaps and thoughts equal status as `gap consciousness' and `thought consciousness' and understand the Consciousness that pervades through all of them, which, as I pointed out earlier, is also there in "I- Consciousness" and "sleep consciousness". PraNAms. Madathil Nair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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