Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Many Thousand Pranams to all At the outset let me humbly thank the group which helped me with my enquiry on evolution of pancha bhootas. There is much greater clarity in my mind. proceeding further on Tattva Bodha, On the subject of Jiva and Isvara, Part of the shloka in Tattvabodh Runs thus: ..................... Avidyopadihih san atma jiva ityucyate! Mayopadhih san isvara ityucyate| ....... ........... Karanat na jivesvarayorbhedabuddhih svikarya| The commentator writes ( Within brackets in Italics is my doubt) " Brahman the truth is infinite. It wields its inherent creative power, the total conditioning maya, to appear as the world of things and beings. The Truth with the conditioning of maya is called Isvara. Isvara always knows his true nature and does not get overpowered by Maya { Is this not Brahman?} He remains in full control of it and is called Mayapati." He goes on to conclude " due to that reason the notion that Jiva is different from Isvara should not be entertained" I have two questions: 1.If Isvara is in full control of maya and is not affected by it, does it not contradict the statement 'the truth with the conditioning of maya is called Isvara- Mayopadihih san Isvara ithyucyate" Does this mean that this conditioning is not effective for practical purposes? 2. Now one has believed that the Goal of Self ( Jiva) is to identify itself with Brahman which is of the nature of Sacchidananda. The last line urges that Jiva should identify with Isvara. If the Jiva identifies with Isvara which is Brahman conditioned by Maya is there not another step to cross - Transcending Isvara and realizing Brahman? Many Pranams to all Sridhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 advaitin, "asridhar19" <asridhar19> wrote: >> > > " Brahman the truth is infinite. It wields its inherent creative > power, the total conditioning maya, > to appear as the world of things and beings. The Truth with the > conditioning of maya is called Isvara. > Isvara always knows his true nature and does not get overpowered by > Maya { Is this not Brahman?} > He remains in full control of it and is called Mayapati." > > He goes on to conclude > > " due to that reason the notion that Jiva is different from Isvara > should not be entertained" > > I have two questions: > > 1.If Isvara is in full control of maya and is not affected by it, > does it not contradict the statement > 'the truth with the conditioning of maya is called Isvara- > Mayopadihih san Isvara ithyucyate" > Does this mean that this conditioning is not effective for practical > purposes? > > 2. > Now one has believed that the Goal of Self ( Jiva) is to identify > itself with Brahman which is of > the nature of Sacchidananda. The last line urges that Jiva should > identify with Isvara. > If the Jiva identifies with Isvara which is Brahman conditioned by > Maya > is there not another step to cross - Transcending Isvara and > realizing Brahman? > > Many Pranams to all > Sridhar ---------------------------- Namaste Sridharji and all Your questions will take us thro the entire advaita vedanta. One can quote entire Upanishads. Instead of attempting to do anything of that sort I just sat at the computer and typed off a reply just as it came to my mind. Here it is. Brahman is nirguNa, attributeless; is not the predicate of anything, cannot be pointed at, is neither this nor that – and thus it goes on. So there is no way of `worshipping' it. No, we cannot even talk about that except by giving it a name, though not a form. Therefore Upanishads give it a name `tat', just for purposes of referring to it and to say that `tat' has no attributes. But our intellect wants to do something with the Almighty Supreme. A worship, a prayer, a meditation, an offering or whatever. All these involve a duality of the worshipper and the worshipped. The moment we think of Brahman as an object of worship or prayer or meditation, immediately, the concept of nirguna brahman is jeopardized. Thus the intellect has created brahman with attributes – a saguna brahman. The very fact that our intellect has come in the picture implies that mAyA has done its job. It is mAyA's effect that there is an intellect and we begin to think of objects through our intellect. Thus Brahman, with the upAdhi (impact, coating, influence, superposition, covering, conditioning, ... - - choose your word) of mAyA, is called saguNa brahman. You can go on debating now whether we (through our intellect) created the saguna brahman or whether it is somewhere there, if not an object, as a subject. That question is neither relevant now, nor will it take us anywhere. That saguNa brahman is the Ishvara. Now Ishvara has all the superlative qualities that any religion associates with Almighty God. But mAyA did not create Ishvara. It is Ishvara that created the mAyA. MayA is in His control. It is like a snake having poison but is never affected by its poison. Ishvara is not affected by His mAyA. On the other hand, the spark of brahman which is the core essence of beings,(jIva-bhUtAM) is the creation of mAyA. So all jIvas are under the influence of mAyA. To get out of this mAyA we need the Grace of that Ishvara, who, by His magic wand, can take us out of the grip of mAyA. Thus Brahman and Ishvara are the same, except for the way we look at them. If we don't look for brahman, but knowing we are brahman, if we `are' brahman, then there is nothing more to say or do. `aham brahma asmi'. Period. On the other hand, if we want to look `at' brahman in some way or other, already we have made brahman an object and thus it is already only the saguna-brahman that we are talking about. So we can `look at' it, we can meditate on it, we can aspire to `reach' it and all that sort of thing. Jiva on the other hand, so long as it is in the grip of mAyA, is separate from brahman and also separate from other jIvas. Once it transcends mAyA, it is brahman. This is the jIva-brahma aikyam that advaita keeps trumpeting to us. When jIva identifies itself with brahman there is no need to bring in an Ishvara now; because the very identification of jIva with brahman already includes the identification of brahman and Ishvara – because the identification itself is something which transcends the mAyA. So the upAdhi of mAya is gone from both jIva and Ishvara. -------------- The above is a first version of my immediate thoughts on what you wrote and what might answer you. I hope it doesn't need too many corrections. My two cents worth. praNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Many Pranams Krishnamurthiji and all others Many thanks for a very lucid and direct explanation as also for the encouragement. This further confirms my thinking that one needs to fear the snake's poison ( Maya) as long as there is ahamkara or identification with any of the three bodies or the five sheaths etc. The explanation that the moment 'Intellect' wants to 'connect' in some way with Brahman, Saguna Brahman is created is also enlightening. Many Pranams and Thanks to all Sridhar advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > advaitin, "asridhar19" <asridhar19> > wrote: > >> > > > " Brahman the truth is infinite. It wields its inherent creative > > power, the total conditioning maya, > > to appear as the world of things and beings. The Truth with the > > conditioning of maya is called Isvara. > > Isvara always knows his true nature and does not get overpowered > by > > Maya { Is this not Brahman?} > > He remains in full control of it and is called Mayapati." > > > > He goes on to conclude > > > > " due to that reason the notion that Jiva is different from Isvara > > should not be entertained" > > > > I have two questions: > > > > 1.If Isvara is in full control of maya and is not affected by it, > > does it not contradict the statement > > 'the truth with the conditioning of maya is called Isvara- > > Mayopadihih san Isvara ithyucyate" > > Does this mean that this conditioning is not effective for > practical > > purposes? > > > > 2. > > Now one has believed that the Goal of Self ( Jiva) is to identify > > itself with Brahman which is of > > the nature of Sacchidananda. The last line urges that Jiva should > > identify with Isvara. > > If the Jiva identifies with Isvara which is Brahman conditioned by > > Maya > > is there not another step to cross - Transcending Isvara and > > realizing Brahman? > > > > Many Pranams to all > > Sridhar > > ---------------------------- > > Namaste Sridharji and all > > Your questions will take us thro the entire advaita vedanta. One can > quote entire Upanishads. Instead of attempting to do anything of > that sort I just sat at the computer and typed off a reply just as > it came to my mind. Here it is. > > Brahman is nirguNa, attributeless; is not the predicate of > anything, cannot be pointed at, is neither this nor that – and thus > it goes on. > > So there is no way of `worshipping' it. No, we cannot even talk > about that except by giving it a name, though not a form. Therefore > Upanishads give it a name `tat', just for purposes of referring to > it and to say that `tat' has no attributes. > > But our intellect wants to do something with the Almighty Supreme. A > worship, a prayer, a meditation, an offering or whatever. All these > involve a duality of the worshipper and the worshipped. The moment > we think of Brahman as an object of worship or prayer or meditation, > immediately, the concept of nirguna brahman is jeopardized. Thus > the intellect has created brahman with attributes – a saguna > brahman. > > The very fact that our intellect has come in the picture implies > that mAyA has done its job. It is mAyA's effect that there is an > intellect and we begin to think of objects through our intellect. > Thus Brahman, with the upAdhi (impact, coating, influence, > superposition, covering, conditioning, ... - - choose your word) > of mAyA, is called saguNa brahman. You can go on debating now > whether we (through our intellect) created the saguna brahman or > whether it is somewhere there, if not an object, as a subject. That > question is neither relevant now, nor will it take us anywhere. > > That saguNa brahman is the Ishvara. Now Ishvara has all the > superlative qualities that any religion associates with Almighty > God. But mAyA did not create Ishvara. It is Ishvara that created > the mAyA. MayA is in His control. It is like a snake having poison > but is never affected by its poison. Ishvara is not affected by His > mAyA. > > On the other hand, the spark of brahman which is the core essence of > beings,(jIva-bhUtAM) is the creation of mAyA. So all jIvas are under > the influence of mAyA. To get out of this mAyA we need the Grace of > that Ishvara, who, by His magic wand, can take us out of the grip of > mAyA. > > Thus Brahman and Ishvara are the same, except for the way we look at > them. If we don't look for brahman, but knowing we are brahman, if > we `are' brahman, then there is nothing more to say or do. `aham > brahma asmi'. Period. > > On the other hand, if we want to look `at' brahman in some way or > other, already we have made brahman an object and thus it is already > only the saguna-brahman that we are talking about. So we can `look > at' it, we can meditate on it, we can aspire to `reach' it and all > that sort of thing. > > Jiva on the other hand, so long as it is in the grip of mAyA, is > separate from brahman and also separate from other jIvas. Once it > transcends mAyA, it is brahman. This is the jIva-brahma aikyam that > advaita keeps trumpeting to us. When jIva identifies itself with > brahman there is no need to bring in an Ishvara now; because the > very identification of jIva with brahman already includes the > identification of brahman and Ishvara – because the identification > itself is something which transcends the mAyA. So the upAdhi of mAya > is gone from both jIva and Ishvara. > > -------------- > > The above is a first version of my immediate thoughts on what you > wrote and what might answer you. I hope it doesn't need too many > corrections. My two cents worth. > > praNAms to all advaitins > profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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