Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Dear Greg Goode, In your website you mention - "Advaita vedanta recommends the practice of karma, bhakti and raja yoga before one undertakes jnana yoga. In formal advaita vedanta, it is said that the karma-kanda (ritualistic form of Hinduism) precedes the jnana-kanda (non-dual inquiry)." Can you tell me where Sankara says this? Specifically I know that the last statement is not what Sankara says. In his BSB he does not mention the necessity of karma kanda as a pre-requisite for jnAna- kanda. You may correct me if I am wrong. Lakshminarayana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 You're right, the BSB doesn't mention that. I'm thousand of miles away from my texts now, but the information on the qualifications comes from Tattva Bodha. --Greg At 05:42 PM 11/15/2003 +0000, narayana_kl_71 wrote: >Dear Greg Goode, > >In your website you mention - > >"Advaita vedanta recommends the practice of karma, bhakti and raja >yoga before one undertakes jnana yoga. In formal advaita vedanta, it >is said that the karma-kanda (ritualistic form of Hinduism) precedes >the jnana-kanda (non-dual inquiry)." > >Can you tell me where Sankara says this? Specifically I know that the >last statement is not what Sankara says. In his BSB he does not >mention the necessity of karma kanda as a pre-requisite for jnAna- >kanda. You may correct me if I am wrong. > > >Lakshminarayana > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 I am yet to read the text you mentioned. But if tattva bodha talks about bhakti as a pre-req for vedAnta, then that is strange. Compare GauDapAda kArika 3.1 and 3.2 and the Sankara bhAshya on them when you get to your texts. -Lakshminarayana > You're right, the BSB doesn't mention that. I'm thousand of miles >away from my texts now, but the information on the qualifications >comes from Tattva Bodha. > > --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 That's right, the GauDapAda kArika certainly doesn't mention bhakti. But we wouldn't expect all the texts to present the same emphases, would we? Have you read any presentation of the 4 qualifications? How would a person who doesn't quite have the qualifications come to acquire them? This is where karma yoga, bhakti yoga, raja yoga, etc., come into play. Pranams to all, --Greg At 07:05 PM 11/15/2003 +0000, narayana_kl_71 wrote: >I am yet to read the text you mentioned. But if tattva bodha talks >about bhakti as a pre-req for vedAnta, then that is strange. Compare >GauDapAda kArika 3.1 and 3.2 and the Sankara bhAshya on them when you >get to your texts. > > >-Lakshminarayana > > >> You're right, the BSB doesn't mention that. I'm thousand of miles >>away from my texts now, but the information on the qualifications >>comes from Tattva Bodha. >> >> --Greg > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 > That's right, the GauDapAda kArika certainly doesn't mention bhakti. But we wouldn't expect all the texts to present the same emphases, would we? The intended point was not that of not mentioning but of advising against bhakti. That is what GK does essentially, if my understanding is right. That makes Sankara hold contradictory opinions. > Have you read any presentation of the 4 qualifications? How would a person who doesn't quite have the qualifications come to acquire them? This is where karma yoga, bhakti yoga, raja yoga, etc., come into play. I understood your point before and respect your opinion. However what I am interested in is whether Sankara and GauDapAda share the same opinion. -Lakshminarayana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Sri Lakshminarayana wrote: > > The intended point was not that of not mentioning but of advising > against bhakti. That is what GK does essentially, if my understanding > is right. That makes Sankara hold contradictory opinions. > Although Tattwa Bodha is a work commonly ascribed to Adi Shankara, it was most likely not written by him. Instead, it came from the pen of a later proponent and follower of Advaita Vedanta. Hence, when discussing the caracteristics of the authentic teachings of Shankara, it is recommendable to make use of his prasthana traya (his bhashyas on ten Upanishads, his Brahma Sutra Bhashya and his Bhagavad Gita Bhashya) and Upadesha Sahasri. These works are all considered authentic by the Advaita tradition as well as modern scholars. I agree with you that Shankara Bhashya and the Karikas of Gaudapada do not contradict on this point. The teachings of the post-Shankara Tattwa Bodha are less authoritative than Shankara Bhashya, and hence Shankara Bhashya is what counts here, at least in my opinion. Warm regards Stig Lundgren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > Dear Greg Goode, > > In your website you mention - > > "Advaita vedanta recommends the practice of karma, bhakti and raja > yoga before one undertakes jnana yoga. In formal advaita vedanta, it > is said that the karma-kanda (ritualistic form of Hinduism) precedes > the jnana-kanda (non-dual inquiry)." > > Can you tell me where Sankara says this? Specifically I know that the > last statement is not what Sankara says. In his BSB he does not > mention the necessity of karma kanda as a pre-requisite for jnAna- > kanda. You may correct me if I am wrong. > Namaste, Lakshminarayana and Greg, Brahma Sutra III-iv - 26 says "All (religious actions) are necessary as well on the authority of the Upanishad prescribing sacrifices etc." In other words it says all the duties of the different stages of life are needed for the emergence of Knowledge. Sankara quotes Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4-4-22 "The Brahmanas seek to know it thro. the study of the Vedas, sacrifices, charity, austerity, consisting in a dispassionate perception of sense-objects" in the commentary on this Sutra. PraNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71 > wrote: > The intended point was not that of not mentioning but of advising > against bhakti. That is what GK does essentially, if my understanding > is right. That makes Sankara hold contradictory opinions. > Hello, I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what your views are. Are you saying that Gaudapada and Shankara advise against Bhakti, or that Gaudapada does and Shankara maybe doesn't or....? > > I am interested in is whether Sankara and GauDapAda share the same > opinion. > Personally reading the Mandukyakarika of Gaudapada, it seems that Gaudapada and Shankara had different opinions on whether the dream state and waking state are essentially the same. Shankara refutes this in the Brahmasutra Bhasya when discussing the Buddhist Vijnanavadins, but the Mandukyakarika affirms in II.1-10 So, at least here, it really seems they had different opinions and maybe in other places as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 advaitin, "Stig Lundgren" <slu@b...> wrote: > I agree with you that Shankara Bhashya and the Karikas of > Gaudapada do not contradict on this point. The teachings of the > post-Shankara Tattwa Bodha are less authoritative than Shankara > Bhashya, and hence Shankara Bhashya is what counts here, at least > in my opinion. > > Warm regards > Stig Lundgren What translation of the Tattwa Bodha are you guys using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Thanks Profvk! --Greg At 06:33 AM 11/16/2003 +0000, V. Krishnamurthy wrote: >Namaste, Lakshminarayana and Greg, > >Brahma Sutra III-iv - 26 says "All (religious actions) are necessary >as well on the authority of the Upanishad prescribing sacrifices >etc." In other words it says all the duties of the different stages >of life are needed for the emergence of Knowledge. Sankara quotes >Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4-4-22 "The Brahmanas seek to know it >thro. the study of the Vedas, sacrifices, charity, austerity, >consisting in a dispassionate perception of sense-objects" in the >commentary on this Sutra. > >PraNAms to all advaitins >profvk > > > > > > >Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. >Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ >To Post a message send an email to : advaitin >Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > >Your use of is subject to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Namaste ProfVK and Greg, How about the following from Sankara's commentary on BSB first sUtra - "The special question with regard to the enquiry into Brahman is whether it presupposes as its antecedent the understanding of the acts of religious duty. To this question we reply in the negative, because for a man who has read the Vedânta-parts of the Veda it is possible to enter on the enquiry into Brahman even before engaging in the enquiry into religious duty." And how about this on the same sUtra - "Nor is it the purport of the word 'then' to indicate order of succession; a purport which it serves in other passages, as, for instance, in the one enjoining the cutting off of pieces from the heart and other parts of the sacrificial animal because there is no proof for assuming the enquiry into religious duty and the enquiry into Brahman to stand in the relation of principal and subordinate matter or the relation of qualification on the part of the person qualified ; and because the result as well as the object of the enquiry differs in the two cases." "The knowledge of active religious duty has for its fruit transitory felicity, and that again depends on the performance of religious acts. The enquiry into Brahman, on the other hand, has for its fruit eternal bliss, and does not depend on the performance of any acts". The underlying point is - Sankara never considered performance of religious duties as the necessary pre-requisite for enquiry into brahman. The standard advaitic position is that knowledge cannot arise even by performing a million good acts. Lakshminarayana > Namaste, Lakshminarayana and Greg, > > Brahma Sutra III-iv - 26 says "All (religious actions) are necessary > as well on the authority of the Upanishad prescribing sacrifices > etc." In other words it says all the duties of the different stages > of life are needed for the emergence of Knowledge. Sankara quotes > Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4-4-22 "The Brahmanas seek to know it > thro. the study of the Vedas, sacrifices, charity, austerity, > consisting in a dispassionate perception of sense-objects" in the > commentary on this Sutra. > > PraNAms to all advaitins > profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Dear Concordance, Whether Sankara and GauDapAda differed from each other, we can talk at a later time. Anyway, no views are my views. I am simply trying to understand what Sankara and GauDapAda are trying to say. Lakshminarayana advaitin, "concordance909" <concordance909> wrote: > advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71 > > wrote: > > The intended point was not that of not mentioning but of advising > > against bhakti. That is what GK does essentially, if my > understanding > > is right. That makes Sankara hold contradictory opinions. > > > > > Hello, > > I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what your views are. Are you > saying that Gaudapada and Shankara advise against Bhakti, or that > Gaudapada does and Shankara maybe doesn't or....? > > > > > > I am interested in is whether Sankara and GauDapAda share the same > > opinion. > > > > > Personally reading the Mandukyakarika of Gaudapada, it seems that > Gaudapada and Shankara had different opinions on whether the dream > state and waking state are essentially the same. Shankara refutes this > in the Brahmasutra Bhasya when discussing the Buddhist Vijnanavadins, > but the Mandukyakarika affirms in II.1-10 > > So, at least here, it really seems they had different opinions and > maybe in other places as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 advaitin, "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> wrote: > > Namaste ProfVK and Greg, > > > How about the following from Sankara's commentary on BSB first sUtra - Namaste, Kanchi Paramacharya put it more simply: http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part21/chap1.htm ".............Outward calm is the first step towards inward stillness -- and this stillness is to be brought about in degrees and will not be gained at once. That is why the wise tell us:"Reduce all your sensual activities. Do not join the crowd. Try to disengage yourself from all work including that of doing good to the world. Keep away from money and dwell in the forest. "But do we listen to the advice? We shall do so only when our mind is cleansed. That is why so many rituals are prescribed to purify the mind, the conciouness. It means that, instead of asking us not to do this and that, we are asked to do(perform)this and that rite. It is natural for us to be involved in some work or other. So, without any regard for our personal likes and dislikes, we perform the rites laid down in the sastras. Even here our personal likes and dislikes will intrude but, unlike in the matter of meditation.................." Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Namaste Narayanaji, SankarAchArya's words will be misleading if not properly contemplated upon. Also, we should refer his other works before coming to a conclusion. What you have said is correct. Performance of religious duties and karma-kaanda is not an essential pre-requisite for jnAna-kanda. But this is applicable to whom? It is applicable for a person who has accumulated enough 'vivEka' and 'vairAgya' in this birth or from the previous births. As for the others in whom this 'vairAgya' has not yet dawn, religious practises are essential so as to purify the mind/intellect. In his bhAshyam on Gita, SankarAchArya specifically says that nothing written in the Vedas are unworthy of performing. Hari Om "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:46 pm Re: Dear Greg Goode (on Qualifications for advaita) Namaste ProfVK and Greg, How about the following from Sankara's commentary on BSB first sUtra - "The special question with regard to the enquiry into Brahman is whether it presupposes as its antecedent the understanding of the acts of religious duty. To this question we reply in the negative, because for a man who has read the Vedânta-parts of the Veda it is possible to enter on the enquiry into Brahman even before engaging in the enquiry into religious duty." And how about this on the same sUtra - "Nor is it the purport of the word 'then' to indicate order of succession; a purport which it serves in other passages, as, for instance, in the one enjoining the cutting off of pieces from the heart and other parts of the sacrificial animal because there is no proof for assuming the enquiry into religious duty and the enquiry into Brahman to stand in the relation of principal and subordinate matter or the relation of qualification on the part of the person qualified ; and because the result as well as the object of the enquiry differs in the two cases." "The knowledge of active religious duty has for its fruit transitory felicity, and that again depends on the performance of religious acts. The enquiry into Brahman, on the other hand, has for its fruit eternal bliss, and does not depend on the performance of any acts". The underlying point is - Sankara never considered performance of religious duties as the necessary pre-requisite for enquiry into brahman. The standard advaitic position is that knowledge cannot arise even by performing a million good acts. Lakshminarayana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 --- Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch wrote: > Namaste Narayanaji, > > SankarAchArya's words will be misleading if not > properly contemplated upon. > Also, we should refer his other works before coming > to a conclusion. > > What you have said is correct. Performance of > religious duties and karma-kaanda is not an > essential pre-requisite for jnAna-kanda. But this is > applicable to whom? It is applicable for a person > who has accumulated enough 'vivEka' and 'vairAgya' > in this birth or from the previous births. As for > the others in whom this 'vairAgya' has not yet dawn, > religious practises are essential so as to purify > the mind/intellect. > > In his bhAshyam on Gita, SankarAchArya specifically > says that nothing written in the Vedas are unworthy > of performing. > > Hari Om > > > > "narayana_kl_71" <narayana_kl_71> > Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:46 pm > Re: Dear Greg Goode (on Qualifications for > advaita) > > Namaste ProfVK and Greg, > > > How about the following from Sankara's commentary on > BSB first sUtra - > > "The special question with regard to the enquiry > into Brahman is > whether it presupposes as its antecedent the > understanding of the > acts of religious duty. To this question we reply in > the negative, > because for a man who has read the Vedânta-parts of > the Veda it is > possible to enter on the enquiry into Brahman even > before engaging in > the enquiry into religious duty." > > And how about this on the same sUtra - > > "Nor is it the purport of the word 'then' to > indicate order of > succession; a purport which it serves in other > passages, as, for > instance, in the one enjoining the cutting off of > pieces from the > heart and other parts of the sacrificial animal > because there is no > proof for assuming the enquiry into religious duty > and the enquiry > into Brahman to stand in the relation of principal > and subordinate > matter or the relation of qualification on the part > of the person > qualified ; and because the result as well as the > object of the > enquiry differs in the two cases." > > "The knowledge of active religious duty has for its > fruit transitory > felicity, and that again depends on the performance > of religious > acts. The enquiry into Brahman, on the other hand, > has for its fruit > eternal bliss, and does not depend on the > performance of any acts". > > The underlying point is - Sankara never considered > performance of > religious duties as the necessary pre-requisite for > enquiry into > brahman. The standard advaitic position is that > knowledge cannot > arise even by performing a million good acts. > > > Lakshminarayana > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, > Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or > more to the US & Canada. > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click./mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/XUWolB/TM > ---------------------- NAMASTE. both sri. ranjith and sri. l/narayana are right. HH .ACHARYA is addressing the two concepts to two different levels of seekers. where he recommends the path of bhakti and sacrifices etc, he is addressing the advice to those who are not yet ready to reach the sahasraara and remain there. where he frowns upon tradition etc, he is speaking to students who have already attained the state of non-attachment, the confirmed renounciates, the advanced yogis and advanced advaitins. both lessons are perfectly valid at the respective levels of attainment of the seeker. in this regard, i may be allowed to quote the following from a realized soul: " AS FOR EXPERIENCES, THEY ARE ALL RIGHT but the trouble is that they do not seem to change the nature, they only enrich the consciousness-- even the realisation, on the mind level, of the brahman seems to leave the nature almost where it was, except for a few. This is why we insist on the psychic transformation as the first necessity--for that does change nature-- and ITS CHIEF INSTRUMENT IS BHAKTI, SURRENDER, etc. " Sri. Aurabindo . ref : "emergence of the psychic " book of compilation by A.S.Dalal./p.101. --------------~-> > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy > of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : > advaitin > Messages Archived at: > advaitin/messages > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > ______________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger http://mail.messenger..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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