Atmananda's "witness" teaching different from idealism

[Guest guest]

Hello Dennis,

The Mandukya Karika of Gaudapada seems to

run counter to the view expressed in II.ii.29 eg. As

the dream objects are unreal in a dream, so also,

because of that very reason, the objects in the waking

state are unreal. But the objects (in the dream

state) differ because of existence inside (the body)

and because of contraction (in the dream). II.4

 

Sankara's notes on the text say that what is common to

both is the fact of being perceived. Being perceived

puts them both on an identical reality footing.

 

What Sankara says in the B.S.B. loc.cit. runs contrary

to this "Moreover, dream vision is a kind of memory,

whereas the visions of the waking state are forms of

perceptions (through valid means of knowledge).

 

I conjecture that this varience can be understood if

you view the first mentioned as mere notes, sort of

'it says here' taking them at their face value without

challenging them. It would not be on really to

challenge a guru of his own lineage. Mohanty in his

entry on Vedanta in the Ency.Britt. describes

Gaudapada as illusionistic. It is notable that the

text is sprinkled with references to Maya a word which

Sankara himself uses sparingly. Obviously not being

acquainted with the original this is an

impressionistic observation.

 

I take your point that the realised man sees the world

as only name and form.

 

Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

dear fred,

swami chinmayanda's guru told him that he is

now ready for nirvana. swamiji, however, declined the

"offer" and told his guru that he would prefer to go

out into the world and spread his "enlightenment"

amongst the common folk.

a.v.krshnan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

______________________

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[Guest guest]

In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the mind,

three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on

Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of

particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about

'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin.

 

Ananda

 

--------------------------------

 

1st July 1954

49. What is witness knowledge?

 

Witness knowledge is pure Consciousness. But mentation knowledge always

appears in the form of subject-object relationship. When you stand as

witness, you are in your real nature.

 

Mentation appears in the light of the witness. The light in the

mentation knowledge is itself the witness. There is no mentation in the

witness.

 

The state of the witness is the same as that of deep sleep and

Consciousness pure.

_____________________

 

8th March 1955

13. Is not the witness only one?

 

No. It is neither one nor many, but beyond both. When you say that it

is only one, you stand in the mental realm as an expanded ego and

unconsciously refer to the many.

_____________________

 

29th March 1956

17. What is the significance of the three states?

 

1. The waking state represents diversity in all its nakedness.

'Realistic' (or materialistic) philosophy is based upon the apparent

reality of this state.

 

2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of

the one. The idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the

relatively greater reality of the mind, as compared with sense objects.

 

3. The deep sleep state: Truth alone is absolute non-duality. Vedantins

depend upon the experience of deep sleep to expound ultimate Truth, the

real nature of Man.

[Guest guest]

Hello Krshnam,

 

Well if Swami Chinmayanda is not Self-Realized, how can he spread any

enlightenment?

Thanks,

Fred

-

av krshnan

advaitin

Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:17 AM

Re: RE: Atmananda's "witness" teaching different from

idealism

 

 

dear fred,

swami chinmayanda's guru told him that he is

now ready for nirvana. swamiji, however, declined the

"offer" and told his guru that he would prefer to go

out into the world and spread his "enlightenment"

amongst the common folk.

a.v.krshnan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

______________________

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21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be.

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[Guest guest]

Ananda,

 

Thank you for posting this. This came in time for me to clear some

doubts. The deep sleep state (not Sushupti but Turyia, according to Ramana

Maharshi, is the sole aim. A mentation may occur that touches somehow the

Intuitional Oneness but yet, it (the mind) distorts this experience, or better

said, translates this information into a theorem, a thesis, a mentation, a

sequence of logical thoughts. I see that formulating theories about many Jivas,

one Jiva, Atman, Anatman, is only preparatory, like preparing the mind for the

state of Sahaj Samadhi which is deep sleep and illumination. My teacher says it

is possible for a fully self-realized person to willingly move between Turyia,

Jagrat and Sushupti as the person wishes, so that a completely self-realized

being will not necessarily be permanently in Sahaj Samadhi, but instead it might

be said that he's permanently there, because whenever he wishes he pulls up his

focus of consciousness from the mind to the Self. This cleared a lot of doubts

to me.

Best Regards,

Fred

-

Ananda Wood

AdvaitinGroup

Saturday, December 06, 2003 3:34 PM

Re: Atmananda's "witness" teaching different from idealism

 

 

In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the mind,

three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on

Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of

particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about

'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin.

 

Ananda

 

--------------------------------

 

1st July 1954

49. What is witness knowledge?

 

Witness knowledge is pure Consciousness. But mentation knowledge always

appears in the form of subject-object relationship. When you stand as

witness, you are in your real nature.

 

Mentation appears in the light of the witness. The light in the

mentation knowledge is itself the witness. There is no mentation in the

witness.

 

The state of the witness is the same as that of deep sleep and

Consciousness pure.

_____________________

 

8th March 1955

13. Is not the witness only one?

 

No. It is neither one nor many, but beyond both. When you say that it

is only one, you stand in the mental realm as an expanded ego and

unconsciously refer to the many.

_____________________

 

29th March 1956

17. What is the significance of the three states?

 

1. The waking state represents diversity in all its nakedness.

'Realistic' (or materialistic) philosophy is based upon the apparent

reality of this state.

 

2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of

the one. The idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the

relatively greater reality of the mind, as compared with sense objects.

 

3. The deep sleep state: Truth alone is absolute non-duality. Vedantins

depend upon the experience of deep sleep to expound ultimate Truth, the

real nature of Man.

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

my dear fred,

you have stumped me.

i should not have opened my "mouth" in the

midst of you august souls!

of course swami chinmayananda is a realized

soul, and he is one of the few who have exerted

himself to the maximum possible extent to

"awaken" the "masses" of india and outside india also.

what i meant is the following:

after swamiji had attained the level of

advancement or enlightenment beyond which he no more

needed his "guru" and his "gurukulam", his guru

advised him to choose his path---whether to continue

in the path of further spiritual quest, or otherwise.

swamiji's response was that he wanted to

spread the knowledge he had acquired as far and wide

as possible.

he then went on to establish the chinmaya

mission with branches all over india and also abroad,

and started the "gita gjaana yajna" which became

extraordinarily popular all over india , attracting

thousands each day [something quite surprising for a

discourse on philosophy!!!].

the chinmaya mission now has missionaries

working quietly all over the world, just like the

ramakrishna mission begun a few decades earlier. these

missions , and many similar others, have spearheaded

the social revolution that was so badly needed in our

country.

the mission also runs hundreds of schools ,

where the young minds too are trained in the

philosophy of "all equal before god".

shankara himself attained the state of

jivan-mukta very early in his youth, but chose to

travel [by walk]all over the length and breadth india

spreading the message of sanatana dharma to every nook

and corner of our blessed land.

apologising for having interrupted your

enlightened postings,

regardfully yours,

a.v.krshnan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote:

> In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the

mind,

> three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on

> Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of

> particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about

> 'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin.

>

> Ananda

>

 

Namaste,

Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through Sri.

Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted

down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some light

on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality.

 

SIX LEVELS

 

Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an

object?

 

Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below.

Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last level,

you reach the reality.

 

1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man.

 

2. Knowledge of objects : When the fascination for objects becomes a

little less, objects are examined and found that they cannot stand

independently of knowledge. Side by side with objects, knowledge is

also seen. Both objects and knowledge have equal emphasis and

therefore, this too is the stand of an ordinary man.

 

3. Objects of knowledge : When fascination becomes further less,

objects are examined at closer quarters. Knowledge can exist all

alone ( deep sleep); but objects cannot. Therefore all that appear

do so only as objects of knowledge. Here begins the stand of an

aspirant.

 

4. Objects in knowledge : Here fascination is almost dying. Nothing

is seen outside knowledge. There is greater emphasis for knowledge.

 

5. Knowledge as objects : Here the fascination is almost extinct.

Grossness of objects has ceased to exist. what remains is only

knowledge as objects. Knowledge reigns supreme.

 

6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All is

knowledge.

 

In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all

knowledge.

 

Pranaams,

Raj.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Raj-ji.

 

That is really fascinating. I mean or rather confess I am at Level 1

with your quote objectified. Can Anandaji please enter and elaborate

on it in his inimitable lucid manner lest Atmandaji's wealth of

thoughts goes over the heads of most of us. We would all like to

move at least to Level 3.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

________________

 

 

advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair>

wrote:

>

> Namaste,

> Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through

Sri.

> Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted

> down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some

light

> on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality.

>

> SIX LEVELS

>

> Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an

> object?

>

> Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below.

> Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last

level,

> you reach the reality.

>

> 1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man.

>

> 2. Knowledge of objects : When the fascination for objects becomes

a

> little less, objects are examined and found that they cannot stand

> independently of knowledge. Side by side with objects, knowledge is

> also seen. Both objects and knowledge have equal emphasis and

> therefore, this too is the stand of an ordinary man.

>

> 3. Objects of knowledge : When fascination becomes further less,

> objects are examined at closer quarters. Knowledge can exist all

> alone ( deep sleep); but objects cannot. Therefore all that appear

> do so only as objects of knowledge. Here begins the stand of an

> aspirant.

>

> 4. Objects in knowledge : Here fascination is almost dying. Nothing

> is seen outside knowledge. There is greater emphasis for knowledge.

>

> 5. Knowledge as objects : Here the fascination is almost extinct.

> Grossness of objects has ceased to exist. what remains is only

> knowledge as objects. Knowledge reigns supreme.

>

> 6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All is

> knowledge.

>

> In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all

> knowledge.

>

> Pranaams,

> Raj.

[Guest guest]

Hello Krsnam!

 

My postings are far from being Enlightened! If one can call them

"interesting" it's already an honour to me.

When such a realized soul as Sri Chinmayanda makes an effort like

that , to touch millions of people, there is nothing better than that!

I just asked you that in that previous posting because you seemed to

be ironic, i.e., "he declined the offer". I don't think a Guru may offer someone

Self-Realization just as a material good is offered to a friend.

So you sounded ironic and I just thought that perhaps you were in

fact criticizing Sri Chinmayanda.

Om!

Fred

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "rajkumarknair"

<rajkumarknair> wrote:

> >

>

> Namaste,

> Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through

Sri.

> Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted

> down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some

light

> on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality.

>

> SIX LEVELS

>

> Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an

> object?

>

> Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below.

> Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last

level,

> you reach the reality.

>

> 1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man.

>

>.>

> 6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All

is

> knowledge.

>

> In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all

> knowledge.

>

> Pranaams,

> Raj.

 

Namaste. I used to like the analogy of five levels of abstraction

that Shri M.K. Venkatrama Iyer in his book on advaita talks about,

when he explains how there can be Pure Consciousness without any

object to be conscious of:

Architecture to Sculpture to Painting to Poetry to Music.

By these five levels he says how the first one is nothing but

concrete and the last one is nothing but abstraction. It is

interesting to notice that the passage from Level 1 to Level 5 in

the above noting of Shri Atmananda's teachings conceptualizes these

five levels of abstraction. What a One-ness of Perception by

different Master-expositors of advaita! It is all advaitam!

 

PraNAms to all advaitin s

profvk