Guest guest Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Hello Dennis, The Mandukya Karika of Gaudapada seems to run counter to the view expressed in II.ii.29 eg. As the dream objects are unreal in a dream, so also, because of that very reason, the objects in the waking state are unreal. But the objects (in the dream state) differ because of existence inside (the body) and because of contraction (in the dream). II.4 Sankara's notes on the text say that what is common to both is the fact of being perceived. Being perceived puts them both on an identical reality footing. What Sankara says in the B.S.B. loc.cit. runs contrary to this "Moreover, dream vision is a kind of memory, whereas the visions of the waking state are forms of perceptions (through valid means of knowledge). I conjecture that this varience can be understood if you view the first mentioned as mere notes, sort of 'it says here' taking them at their face value without challenging them. It would not be on really to challenge a guru of his own lineage. Mohanty in his entry on Vedanta in the Ency.Britt. describes Gaudapada as illusionistic. It is notable that the text is sprinkled with references to Maya a word which Sankara himself uses sparingly. Obviously not being acquainted with the original this is an impressionistic observation. I take your point that the realised man sees the world as only name and form. Best Wishes, Michael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 dear fred, swami chinmayanda's guru told him that he is now ready for nirvana. swamiji, however, declined the "offer" and told his guru that he would prefer to go out into the world and spread his "enlightenment" amongst the common folk. a.v.krshnan. ______________________ BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd./evt=21064/*http://bt..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the mind, three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about 'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin. Ananda -------------------------------- 1st July 1954 49. What is witness knowledge? Witness knowledge is pure Consciousness. But mentation knowledge always appears in the form of subject-object relationship. When you stand as witness, you are in your real nature. Mentation appears in the light of the witness. The light in the mentation knowledge is itself the witness. There is no mentation in the witness. The state of the witness is the same as that of deep sleep and Consciousness pure. _____________________ 8th March 1955 13. Is not the witness only one? No. It is neither one nor many, but beyond both. When you say that it is only one, you stand in the mental realm as an expanded ego and unconsciously refer to the many. _____________________ 29th March 1956 17. What is the significance of the three states? 1. The waking state represents diversity in all its nakedness. 'Realistic' (or materialistic) philosophy is based upon the apparent reality of this state. 2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of the one. The idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the relatively greater reality of the mind, as compared with sense objects. 3. The deep sleep state: Truth alone is absolute non-duality. Vedantins depend upon the experience of deep sleep to expound ultimate Truth, the real nature of Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Hello Krshnam, Well if Swami Chinmayanda is not Self-Realized, how can he spread any enlightenment? Thanks, Fred - av krshnan advaitin Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:17 AM Re: RE: Atmananda's "witness" teaching different from idealism dear fred, swami chinmayanda's guru told him that he is now ready for nirvana. swamiji, however, declined the "offer" and told his guru that he would prefer to go out into the world and spread his "enlightenment" amongst the common folk. a.v.krshnan. ______________________ BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd./evt=21064/*http://bt..co.uk Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 Ananda, Thank you for posting this. This came in time for me to clear some doubts. The deep sleep state (not Sushupti but Turyia, according to Ramana Maharshi, is the sole aim. A mentation may occur that touches somehow the Intuitional Oneness but yet, it (the mind) distorts this experience, or better said, translates this information into a theorem, a thesis, a mentation, a sequence of logical thoughts. I see that formulating theories about many Jivas, one Jiva, Atman, Anatman, is only preparatory, like preparing the mind for the state of Sahaj Samadhi which is deep sleep and illumination. My teacher says it is possible for a fully self-realized person to willingly move between Turyia, Jagrat and Sushupti as the person wishes, so that a completely self-realized being will not necessarily be permanently in Sahaj Samadhi, but instead it might be said that he's permanently there, because whenever he wishes he pulls up his focus of consciousness from the mind to the Self. This cleared a lot of doubts to me. Best Regards, Fred - Ananda Wood AdvaitinGroup Saturday, December 06, 2003 3:34 PM Re: Atmananda's "witness" teaching different from idealism In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the mind, three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about 'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin. Ananda -------------------------------- 1st July 1954 49. What is witness knowledge? Witness knowledge is pure Consciousness. But mentation knowledge always appears in the form of subject-object relationship. When you stand as witness, you are in your real nature. Mentation appears in the light of the witness. The light in the mentation knowledge is itself the witness. There is no mentation in the witness. The state of the witness is the same as that of deep sleep and Consciousness pure. _____________________ 8th March 1955 13. Is not the witness only one? No. It is neither one nor many, but beyond both. When you say that it is only one, you stand in the mental realm as an expanded ego and unconsciously refer to the many. _____________________ 29th March 1956 17. What is the significance of the three states? 1. The waking state represents diversity in all its nakedness. 'Realistic' (or materialistic) philosophy is based upon the apparent reality of this state. 2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of the one. The idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the relatively greater reality of the mind, as compared with sense objects. 3. The deep sleep state: Truth alone is absolute non-duality. Vedantins depend upon the experience of deep sleep to expound ultimate Truth, the real nature of Man. Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 my dear fred, you have stumped me. i should not have opened my "mouth" in the midst of you august souls! of course swami chinmayananda is a realized soul, and he is one of the few who have exerted himself to the maximum possible extent to "awaken" the "masses" of india and outside india also. what i meant is the following: after swamiji had attained the level of advancement or enlightenment beyond which he no more needed his "guru" and his "gurukulam", his guru advised him to choose his path---whether to continue in the path of further spiritual quest, or otherwise. swamiji's response was that he wanted to spread the knowledge he had acquired as far and wide as possible. he then went on to establish the chinmaya mission with branches all over india and also abroad, and started the "gita gjaana yajna" which became extraordinarily popular all over india , attracting thousands each day [something quite surprising for a discourse on philosophy!!!]. the chinmaya mission now has missionaries working quietly all over the world, just like the ramakrishna mission begun a few decades earlier. these missions , and many similar others, have spearheaded the social revolution that was so badly needed in our country. the mission also runs hundreds of schools , where the young minds too are trained in the philosophy of "all equal before god". shankara himself attained the state of jivan-mukta very early in his youth, but chose to travel [by walk]all over the length and breadth india spreading the message of sanatana dharma to every nook and corner of our blessed land. apologising for having interrupted your enlightened postings, regardfully yours, a.v.krshnan. - ______________________ BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd./evt=21064/*http://bt..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote: > In relation to the present discussion about the witness and the mind, > three notes are appended below from Shri Nitya Tripta's 'Notes on > Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda'. The last note may be of > particular interest to Michael (ombhurbhuva) with his concerns about > 'realism' and 'idealism'. Perhaps also to Benjamin. > > Ananda > Namaste, Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through Sri. Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some light on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality. SIX LEVELS Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an object? Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below. Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last level, you reach the reality. 1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man. 2. Knowledge of objects : When the fascination for objects becomes a little less, objects are examined and found that they cannot stand independently of knowledge. Side by side with objects, knowledge is also seen. Both objects and knowledge have equal emphasis and therefore, this too is the stand of an ordinary man. 3. Objects of knowledge : When fascination becomes further less, objects are examined at closer quarters. Knowledge can exist all alone ( deep sleep); but objects cannot. Therefore all that appear do so only as objects of knowledge. Here begins the stand of an aspirant. 4. Objects in knowledge : Here fascination is almost dying. Nothing is seen outside knowledge. There is greater emphasis for knowledge. 5. Knowledge as objects : Here the fascination is almost extinct. Grossness of objects has ceased to exist. what remains is only knowledge as objects. Knowledge reigns supreme. 6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All is knowledge. In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all knowledge. Pranaams, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Namaste Raj-ji. That is really fascinating. I mean or rather confess I am at Level 1 with your quote objectified. Can Anandaji please enter and elaborate on it in his inimitable lucid manner lest Atmandaji's wealth of thoughts goes over the heads of most of us. We would all like to move at least to Level 3. PraNAms. Madathil Nair ________________ advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair> wrote: > > Namaste, > Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through Sri. > Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted > down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some light > on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality. > > SIX LEVELS > > Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an > object? > > Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below. > Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last level, > you reach the reality. > > 1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man. > > 2. Knowledge of objects : When the fascination for objects becomes a > little less, objects are examined and found that they cannot stand > independently of knowledge. Side by side with objects, knowledge is > also seen. Both objects and knowledge have equal emphasis and > therefore, this too is the stand of an ordinary man. > > 3. Objects of knowledge : When fascination becomes further less, > objects are examined at closer quarters. Knowledge can exist all > alone ( deep sleep); but objects cannot. Therefore all that appear > do so only as objects of knowledge. Here begins the stand of an > aspirant. > > 4. Objects in knowledge : Here fascination is almost dying. Nothing > is seen outside knowledge. There is greater emphasis for knowledge. > > 5. Knowledge as objects : Here the fascination is almost extinct. > Grossness of objects has ceased to exist. what remains is only > knowledge as objects. Knowledge reigns supreme. > > 6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All is > knowledge. > > In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all > knowledge. > > Pranaams, > Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Hello Krsnam! My postings are far from being Enlightened! If one can call them "interesting" it's already an honour to me. When such a realized soul as Sri Chinmayanda makes an effort like that , to touch millions of people, there is nothing better than that! I just asked you that in that previous posting because you seemed to be ironic, i.e., "he declined the offer". I don't think a Guru may offer someone Self-Realization just as a material good is offered to a friend. So you sounded ironic and I just thought that perhaps you were in fact criticizing Sri Chinmayanda. Om! Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair> wrote: > > > > Namaste, > Given below is an excerpt from "GuruDakshina - Rambles through Sri. > Atmananda's teachings " ( an unpublished collection of talks noted > down by his disciple Sri Karunakaran ). I hope this sheds some light > on Sri. Atmananda's views on realism, idealism and non-duality. > > SIX LEVELS > > Disciple: How can we reach the reality from the perception of an > object? > > Gurunathan: You can see an object from six levels as given below. > Each is an improvement on the other. When you come to the last level, > you reach the reality. > > 1. Objects : This is the stand of an ordinary man. > >.> > 6. Knowledge : Even the samskara of objects has disappeared. All is > knowledge. > > In the beginning, it was all objects and in the end it is all > knowledge. > > Pranaams, > Raj. Namaste. I used to like the analogy of five levels of abstraction that Shri M.K. Venkatrama Iyer in his book on advaita talks about, when he explains how there can be Pure Consciousness without any object to be conscious of: Architecture to Sculpture to Painting to Poetry to Music. By these five levels he says how the first one is nothing but concrete and the last one is nothing but abstraction. It is interesting to notice that the passage from Level 1 to Level 5 in the above noting of Shri Atmananda's teachings conceptualizes these five levels of abstraction. What a One-ness of Perception by different Master-expositors of advaita! It is all advaitam! PraNAms to all advaitin s profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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