Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Dear Ananda, Your discussion of Sri Atmananda's Background sounds just like what I have read in Ramana and Nisargadatta. Evidently the three of them are all reading from the same script, or else they have independently had the same experience. I have faith that it is the latter. If this 'background' is simply 'consciousness' (cit), which is the same as 'existence' (sat), then this idea of a background simply says that there is but one reality or existence, which is consciousness. Notice that the word 'background' is not precisely correct, in that it suggests some slight distinction between background and objects, just as between the canvas and the paints covering the canvas. I am sure you would agree that in our case, the background becomes the sole reality, and not merely 'what is behind'. Another subtlety has to do with the notion that the objects seems like 'pictures'. There are two levels to the picture. One is the picture in our mind, which is what I call 'perception'. (There are also 'thoughts', but let us stick with perceptions for the moment.) A perception is clearly nothing but consciousness. But in our normal dualistic frame of mind, this picture in our mind seems to refer to another picture 'out there', outside of our consciousness, that is, to the 'material form' which is taken to be the true reality of which our perception is only a 'photograph'. Hence, I think it is important, if we are to avoid confusion, to begin by realizing that there is no basis whatsoever for the material form outside of consciousness, since this supposed 'outside' is utterly inaccessible and unverifiable. And at a more subtle level the material entity is quite meaningless, being nothing but a hypothetical extrapolation from our perceptual consciousness, such that its very definition and content are in terms of those very perceptions. For example, when we try to imagine the space in which these objects supposedly reside, we can do so only in terms of space as revealed to visual perception. I could say much more... Once the material objects are banished, we can then concentrate on the pictures in our mind, namely, the perceptions themselves. It is but a small step to realize that they are nothing but the background, consciousness. Wherever there is a perception, there is consciousness, and I can detect no difference between the consciousness and the perception, when I silently introspect upon any perception. Indeed, that is how I answer the question, 'How can perceptions and consciousness be identified, since the perceptions are many and changing and the consciousness is one and unchanging?' I simply realize that wherever there is a perception, there is consciousness, and this consciousness at any given moment is a homogeneous, undivided entity. That is, all the perceptions in my mind at any given moment are but one consciousness. This may seem paradoxical when put into words, but it is the simple result of silent introspection. I think the next step would be to realize that the succeeding moments of time are also all part of one consciousness, but I am not there yet. All this can be arrived at through dry, academic philosophy. What is really new and interesting in Advaita and related paths is the spiritual implication. Who would have guessed that realizing the unity of the background would have anything whatsoever to do with happiness? Now *that* is counterintuitive. But it is what the masters say, and I am quite willing to take it as a working hypothesis from credible people with good reputations. This is how we must live most of our lives, or else climb into a hole. Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Hello Benjamin, Ananda and everyone, Benjamin, as I read the reply you posted to Ananda's presentation of Sri Atmananda's "Background" Sat-Cit-Ananda, I got interested in perhaps adding one or two considerations that reflect my opinion and also perhaps link correctly the notion of the background Consciousness as being the only existent thing with the notion of a reality which is non-structural, except in our own twisted interpretations of it. You wrote: If this 'background' is simply 'consciousness' (cit), which is the same as 'existence' (sat), then this idea of a background simply says that there is but one reality or existence, which is consciousness. Notice that the word 'background' is not precisely correct, in that it suggests some slight distinction between background and objects, just as between the canvas and the paints covering the canvas. I am sure you would agree that in our case, the background becomes the sole reality, and not merely 'what is behind'. As Consciousness is the only existent thing, all perceptions and even notions that there is in fact some sort of "object" which is not the same as the perception of it, even the triple "knower-knowledge-knowing" vanish and Consciousness alone remains as the only existent thing. This would in turn imply that the only really existent thing is this Consciousness and all seemingly external reality is then a projection of it. Note that, as the seemingly outside reality is seen as a projection of Consciousness, it is then no longer different from Consciousness itself, and then everything is seen as byproducts of Consciousness, having a relation to it like the waves to the ocean. The waves and the ocean are not two. As Consciousness is seen as the principal and sole factor, the understanding of the process of rebirth becomes easy, and in fact plausible, since Consciousness is the sole reality, and that the subject that perceives the world and the world are one and the same thing. The concept of karma and rebirth cannot be reasonably accepted unless one sees that Consciousness is the supreme factor, and not inert so-called "matter". As matter appears inside Consciousness, or as it is simply a byproduct of Consciousness, rebirth is then understood as just another change in this Consciousness. Hence, I think it is important, if we are to avoid confusion, to begin by realizing that there is no basis whatsoever for the material form outside of consciousness, since this supposed 'outside' is utterly inaccessible and unverifiable. And at a more subtle level the material entity is quite meaningless, being nothing but a hypothetical extrapolation from our perceptual consciousness, such that its very definition and content are in terms of those very perceptions. For example, when we try to imagine the space in which these objects supposedly reside, we can do so only in terms of space as revealed to visual perception. I could say much more... Why don't you? It could be of value to a lot of people on Advaitin. You have probably in a past life reached all this through spiritual experience and insight, and now it's like you're just starting to remember. Most people will not get arrive at these conclusions through academical and philosophical reasoning. Om, Best Wishes, Fred Sponsor Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Namaste everyone, I have been extremely unable to deliver what I wanted to say in my posting regarding Sri Atmananda's background. I wrote some wrong sentences placing words where they were not supposed to. I will try to make a better message. Sorry. Thanks! Fred - Frederico S. Gonzales advaitin Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:20 PM Re: Shri Atmananda's teachings - 7. The background Hello Benjamin, Ananda and everyone, Benjamin, as I read the reply you posted to Ananda's presentation of Sri Atmananda's "Background" Sat-Cit-Ananda, I got interested in perhaps adding one or two considerations that reflect my opinion and also perhaps link correctly the notion of the background Consciousness as being the only existent thing with the notion of a reality which is non-structural, except in our own twisted interpretations of it. at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 advaitin, "Frederico S. Gonzales" <fsg@s...> wrote: > Namaste everyone, > > I have been extremely unable to deliver what I wanted to say in my posting regarding Sri Atmananda's background. I wrote some wrong sentences placing words where they were not supposed to. I will try to make a better message. Sorry. Thanks! > Fred seeking perfection is quite commendable; excellence can be attained if you constantly strive for perfection, and you care enough to do your very best in everything, in every way. eric > - > Frederico S. Gonzales > advaitin > Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:20 PM > Re: Shri Atmananda's teachings - 7. The background > > > Hello Benjamin, Ananda and everyone, > > Benjamin, as I read the reply you posted to Ananda's presentation of Sri Atmananda's "Background" Sat-Cit-Ananda, I got interested in perhaps adding one or two considerations that reflect my opinion and also perhaps link correctly the notion of the background Consciousness as being the only existent thing with the notion of a reality which is non-structural, except in our own twisted interpretations of it. > > at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Dear Benjamin, I am doing a bit of catching up this Sunday and hence a slightly delayed question on your 7th Dec mail to Ananda. Benjamin Root <orion777ben wrote: Once the material objects are banished, we can then concentrate on the pictures in our mind, namely, the perceptions themselves. It is but a small step to realize that they are nothing but the background, consciousness. Wherever there is a perception, here is consciousness, and I can detect no difference between the consciousness and the perception, when I silently introspect upon any perception. Indeed, that is how I answer the question, 'How can perceptions and consciousness be identified, since the perceptions are many and changing and the consciousness is one and unchanging?' VENKAT - M If the material objects out there are banished, how do we account for the changes in the pictures in our mind? Regards, Venkat - M BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Namaste Venkat - M - Ji. Your question poses certain other questions, which at best we can avoid asking with our present knowledge of advaita. Still, just for the sake of asking, let me go ahead. Where is the mind where changes in the pictures, which you seem to imply owe their existence to the 'external world', are seen? Outside or inside? In either case, inside or outside of what? Aren't we in fact 'dreaming' all the time? Can the contents of that 'dream' exist independent of some support? Isn't our sense of being awake, dreaming or having been asleep part of that 'dream'? Aren't the changes in the so-called material objects then seen in the mind? Isn't it, therefore, better that we do away with this differentiation between mind and matter unless it is of some practical value in our so-called waking state or in understanding the fundamentals of advaita and instead acknowledge that we are continuously witnessing a scenario of unending changes? Will 'inside' or 'outside' then matter? Will it not then be easier for us to appreciate the light that shines the stage, the sets and performers on it? All this because your question set me musing. PraNAms. Madathil Nair _______________________ advaitin, S Venkatraman <svenkat52> asked Benji: > If the material objects out there are banished, how do we account for the changes in the pictures in our mind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noworldorder Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 Wherever there is a perception, there isconsciousness, and I can detect no difference between the consciousness and the perception, when I silently introspect upon any perception. Well I can. I AM and there is a perception. True, the perception is inherent in Consciousness and thus its appearance is dependent upon Consciousness, but Consciousness is not dependent upon the perception. Consciousness does not change, even though the appearance of change depends on Consciousness for its appearance. Does someone have an experience different to what I described. ~thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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