Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote: > Very interesting to read Shri Karunakaran's note about levels of > 'realism' and 'idealism' on the way to non-duality (in Shri Rajkumar's > message, 7 Dec). And to read Professor Krishnamurthy's comparison (7 > Dec) with similar levels described by Shri M.K. Venkatrama Iyer. > > And in respect of Shri Madathil's request for clarification of Shri > Karunakaran's 6 levels, I would say that it might be done by grouping > them together into the three familiar levels of body, mind and > consciousness. Namaste, Another interesting approach to the 'levels' is described in Sadaji's post #297, where he compares the descriptions to the seven planes (bhumikas) of Yoga Vasishtha. Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Namaste. The following is a description of the ascent to samadhi in Ninian Smart's `The Religious Experience of Mankind' pp.119-120 ; this appears to me to tell us something analogous to the ascent through six levels of perception enunciated by Shri Atmananda. I am copying this not from Ninian Smart's book, but from an entry on `Samadhi' in a Dictionary of the English Language (Universal Deluxe Dictionary: English-English-Tamil, De Luxe Publishers, Coimbatore, India) The Sadhaka first enters on the four meditations on the realm of form which lead to those of the formless realm. Suppose he is concentrating on a blue flower. He first concentrates on it as simply blue and of a certain shape, in isolation from everything else. This effort at excluding all other perceptions and images is great, so that at the first stage, the Sadhaka is aware of the effort. But in order to achieve further mastery it is necessary to achieve the concentration without awareness of effort. This is the second stage. However, three elements remain in his consciousness; he has a sense of rapture at his achievement, a sense of bliss and collectedness of mind. The first two of these are eliminated in the remaining stages in the realm of form. After these four stages the sadhaka enters the higher stages. First he conceives of everything as though it were boundless space. As it were, he empties the world of all its objects, and imagines empty space. Then he removes even his tenuous idea of external reality and conceives of reality as simply consisting of consciousness. But even this idea involves a thought of something. Therefore, in the third stage of the `formless' meditations he concentrates on the formula `There is nothing'. Finally he reaches the stage of `neither-perception-nor-non- perception'. In other words it is a realm of consciousness which is not like perception of thought; there is no finite object which enters the sadhaka's consciousness. However, it is not quite like dreamless sleep, for the sadhaka is awake and conscious. He neither perceives, in the ordinary sense,nor is he unconscious. PraNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote: > <snip> > But this is perhaps an unnecessarily involved elaboration, of the > simpler and more straightforward analysis in Shri Karunakaran's note > (appended below). Perhaps Shri Rajkumar could explain more clearly, by > correcting this elaboration where it has gone wrong or by saying > something simpler. > > I look forward to seeing more of Shri Karunakaran's notes, either > through Shri Rajkumar, or on a trip to Kerala (perhaps in March or > thereabout) when I hope to have the opportunity to meet Shri > Karunakaran. > > Ananda > Namaste Anandaji, Your explanation is as clear as it can be, and I don't think I can add any more clarity to it. I have with me a copy of Shri Karunakaran's notes. It is very similar in content to Shri Nityatrupta's "Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda". I shall post excerpts from those notes whenever I find them relevant to the ongoing discussions. Pranaams, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Namaste, Thank you, Ananda, for drawing our attention to Sri Karunakaran's valuable note on the 6 levels. I confess that I missed it, as I had assumed that the idealism discussion was going around in the usual circles, so I concentrated instead during the few minutes I had during my morning coffee on your messages, which already give us plenty to read! So your diligence in answering so many people is beneficial in many ways. Regarding Sri Karunakaran's note, I would just like to comment that it sounds just like my view, if only one substitutes 'consciousness' for 'knowledge'. I have always felt a bit uncomfortable about Sri Atmananda's use of 'knowledge', as this connotes the conceptual knowledge which the nondual perspective tries to rise above. At least in the English that I am familiar with, 'knowledge' is closely associated with analytic, dualistic, conceptual and objective knowledge, such as in science or journalism. (You do make an allusion to this when you say that the 6th level is completely beyond the mind.) Another key point in the 6 levels is the emphasis on losing one's fascination with objects as one progresses. This seems to me like a crucial point which is often neglected in these discussions. In fact, I wonder if one cannot make considerable spiritual progress by simply losing this fascination for objects, even if one retains some degree of common-sense 'realism' which still sees an 'outside' world to some extent. Perhaps what really matters is simply that we lose that obsession with objects and concentrate on the spirit within (or which *seems* to be 'within' as long as we adhere to some notion of an outside world). Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Namaste, At 10:27 AM 12/8/2003 -0500, Benjamin Root wrote: >Another key point in the 6 levels is the emphasis on losing one's >fascination with objects as one progresses. This seems to me like a >crucial point which is often neglected in these discussions. In >fact, I wonder if one cannot make considerable spiritual progress by >simply losing this fascination for objects... A good friend of mine once said, "You can't pull the plants to make them grow..." Another friend once said "If you could, then you would!" He's a bit of a wiseacre. Also, depressed people lose fascination with objects. >Perhaps what really matters is simply that we lose >that obsession with objects and concentrate on the spirit within (or >which *seems* to be 'within' as long as we adhere to some notion of >an outside world). This turning within is very important in all "inner traditions." Pranams to all, --Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Namaste Gregji, >Also, depressed people lose fascination with objects. I think that maybe depression is often a first step towards spiritual growth. It can help to break the ego and to lessen our addiction to the senses. Also, it is associated with sensitivity, which is why many people of a 'poetic' nature are afflicted with it. There is a common misconception that 'mystics' go from bliss to bliss. Actually, it is not unusual for there to be a 'dark night of the soul', in which one feels desolate and abandoned by God. This 'purgative' experience may be spiritually beneficial over time. I sometimes wonder if all suffering is not a blessing in disguise, something 'sent' to us when nothing else will break constraining patterns of the mind. This would help explain the problem of evil, i.e. why a good and powerful God can allow it to happen. (Of course, the notion of Ishwara is at the relative level. And I must add that the severity of some of the evil in this world is quite shocking. I confess my ignorance regarding this most difficult topic.) >This turning within is very important in all "inner traditions." Yes, but my point was that we may not necessarily need any philosophy (advaitin, idealistic or otherwise) to reach the goal. It may be that breaking the fascination with objects is what primarily matters, in order to free the spirit. However, I suspect that a correct understanding of nondualism is essential for the final steps. This may arise naturally and spontaneously, even for the bhakta. Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 advaitin, Benjamin Root <orion777ben> wrote: However, I suspect that a correct > understanding of nondualism is essential for the final steps. This > may arise naturally and spontaneously, even for the bhakta. > > Hari Om! > Benjamin Namaste, Benji, May I humbly object to the word 'even' in the above post of yours? Thanks. praNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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