re:ishwara & grace

[Guest guest]

Guru Venkat <v_vedanti

Ishwara and Grace

Guruprasad ji wrote--

Namaskar,

who is really Ishwara ? Can a Jiva really become Ishwara ?

The statement ' Aham Brahmasmi' indicates that the Jiva is Brahman itself. But

is this

same as Ishwara ? How can somebody who has a blemish ( at least for unrealized

people who appear to have ... ) be equal to one who is the very personifcation

of absolute truth ? I understand that the blemish is only jiva's notion and

exists apparently due to Maya. But still, as long as the person is unrealized ,

isn't the world true for him? and so, doesn't it create a clear partition

between the two ?

How does one get grace ( I am not sure what the sanskrit word for this would be.

I am assuming its Kripaya ? )

I read Ramana Maharishi's words saying ' Grace is something that is already

there in abundance... ' . I don't understand this much. What does it really mean

?

Is Ishwara, the bestower of Grace give it to me ?

Regards

Guruprasad

namskaar guruprasad ji

yes guru prasad ji, the world is true for an unrealized person. until & unless

the person does not experience oneness the world continues to be truth for

him.it definitely creates a partition for unrealized as one may be

mukta(liberated) and one may be bound(for him). but for a realized there is no

partition because everything is brahman for him. as Adi Shankaracharya ji say in

vivek chudamani--

Bondage and Liberation, which are conjured up by Maya, do not really exist in

the Atman, one’s Reality, as the appearance and exit of the snake do not abide

in the rope, which suffers no change.

Bondage and Liberation may be talked of when there is the presence or absence

of a covering veil. But there can be no covering veil for Brahman, which is

always uncovered for want of a second thing besides Itself. If there be, the

non-duality of Brahman will be contradicted, and the Shrutis can never brook

duality.

Bondage and Liberation are attributes of the Buddhi which ignorant(unrealized)

people falsely superimpose on the Reality, as the covering of the eyes by a

cloud is transferred to the sun. For this Immutable Brahman is Knowledge

Absolute, the One without a second and unattached.

The idea that bondage exists, and the idea that it does not, are, with

reference to the Reality, both attributes of the Buddhi merely, and never belong

to the Eternal Reality, Brahman.

Hence this bondage and Liberation are created by Maya, and are not in the

Atman. How can there be any idea of limitation with regard to the Supreme Truth,

which is without parts, without activity, calm, unimpeachable, taintless, and

One without a second, as there can be none with regard to the infinite sky ?

There is neither death nor birth, neither a bound nor a struggling soul,

neither a seeker after Liberation nor a liberated one – this is the ultimate

truth.

He clearly states that ignorant people falsely superimpose the partition on the

brahman which may be true for them but not for the realized.

now the question of grace(kripa)--

yes it is present in abundance but is not for everyone.why?

imagine you have two people working under you. one is obedient & other is not.

you do help both when you find them in trouble but you get close to one

who is obedient & not to other. now helping both in trouble is kindness but

getting close to the obedient is grace.

so when one surrernders & ego starts getting dissolved guru comes in life, that

is one starts getting close to Thee(remember there is no difference between guru

& god so it's just the same as getting close to Thee).

so the key to grace is just surrendering and just offfering everything to Him.

as krishna says in Gita--

Whatever thou doest, whatever thou eatest, whatever thou offerest in sacrifice,

whatever thou givest, whatever thou practiseth as austerity, O Arjuna, do it as

an offering unto Me!

Thus shalt thou be freed from the bonds of actions yielding good and evil

fruits; with the mind steadfast in the Yoga of renunciation, and liberated, thou

shalt come unto Me.

once i had a similiar question & my Gurudev cleared my confusion & told me

the difference between kindness & grace. everything dedicated to Him.

with regards,

gautam.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Gautamji

 

gautam madan <pranavomkaar wrote:

"the world is true for an unrealized person. until & unless the person does not

experience oneness the world continues to be truth for him.it definitely creates

a partition for unrealized as one may be mukta(liberated) and one may be

bound(for him)."

 

yes, I would say that's my point as well.

 

gautam madan <pranavomkaar wrote:

"There is neither death nor birth, neither a bound nor a struggling soul,

neither a seeker after Liberation nor a liberated one – this is the ultimate

truth. "

 

yes, I've read this. But too much for me to fathom. anyways, its for realized

souls who can see such a state I guess.

 

thanks for the reply.

 

Regards

Guru

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

<until & unless the person does not experience oneness

Pardon me for my intereference. I just cannot understand how oneness can be

experienced. The moment experience comes into picture tri-pudi i.e. experiencer,

experienced and experience comes into picture.

In my understanding, it is KNOWLEDGE alone and there is no particular experience

involved here. It is like knowing there is no water in mirrage or sun does not

move but it is actually the earth moves.

Hari Om

Mani

 

Guru Venkat <v_vedanti wrote:

Namaste Gautamji

 

gautam madan

wrote:

"the world is true for an unrealized person. the world continues to be truth for

him.it definitely creates a partition for unrealized as one may be

mukta(liberated) and one may be bound(for him)."

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

> Namaste,

> <until & unless the person does not experience oneness

> Pardon me for my intereference. I just cannot understand how

oneness can be experienced. The moment experience comes into picture

tri-pudi i.e. experiencer, experienced and experience comes into

picture.

> In my understanding, it is KNOWLEDGE alone and there is no

particular experience involved here. It is like knowing there is no

water in mirrage or sun does not move but it is actually the earth

moves.

 

Namaste, Mani-ji

Knowing that there is no water in a mirage is knowledge about the

mirage.

Knowing that the Sun is fixed and it is the earth that moves is

knowledge about the solar system.

Knowing that 'I am brahman' is knowledge about scriptural teaching.

Knowing that there is only oneness is scholarship about advaita.

 

But so long as this 'knowing' goes on, spiritual enlightenment,

unfolding, experience, nirvANa, brAhmI sthiti, -- whatever you may

want to call it, it is still far. The word 'jnAnaM' which Sankara

says is moksha, is far more than just the English word 'knowledge'

 

To become brahman also is not the goal, because it has to

be 'being' and not 'becoming'.

 

To be brahman, may be said to be the goal. But even this could be

found fault with, because it looks like it is a goal, an end-post.

So that is also wrong. (See below)

 

Then what is right? Perhaps, is it Realisation that 'I am Brahman '?

Shall we say that this Realisation is the goal? But again the

word 'goal' is wrong. Because we are not supposed to be 'reaching'

something which we do not have now. They (the scriptures and the

Gurus) are crying from the housetops that we are already brahman

even at present and so there is no question of reaching a goal that

I am brahman. We are already IT.

 

Now you can see why there is so much difficulty in using words to

describe that finale? One person uses the word 'experience',

another uses 'realisation' another, 'enlightenment',

another, 'conviction' and yet another, 'samadhi'. Each of these

words can generate a debate about whether that is the right word.

That is why the Shruti itself says 'yato vAcho nivartante'. Gita

uses the words

brahma-samsparsham -- the touch of brahman

brahma-anubhavam -- the experience of brahman

brAhmI sthiti -- being in brahman

brahma-bhAvam -- attitude that 'I am brahman'

brahma-nirvANaM -- the bliss of brahman

mad-bhAvaM -- being in Me

paramA gati -- Supreme status

shAshvataM padaM -- Eternal locale

 

The lesson of all this is: Let us not get lost in the pursuit of

words!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Guru Venkat <v_vedanti> wrote:

 

snip

> yes, I've read this. But too much for me to fathom. anyways, its

for realized souls who can see such a state I guess.

>

> thanks for the reply.

 

Human form is the actual form of God, "I AM" exactly what you are,

every move of 'your' dukha is when you give birth to the world;

what a relief to feel that suffering if for a happy event;

the sweetness of my pain (like honey one can say)

eric

 

>

> Regards

> Guru

>

>

>

>

>

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>

>

[Guest guest]

Respected Professor ji,

 

Pranam to all

 

It is indeed a real piece of lucid clarification. Yes, "Sabda jalam mahaaranyam,

chittha bhramana karanam". Also, too much attachment to Shastra i.e. one of the

three Eshana Thrayam, Vitta, Loka and Shastra, is definitely a serious obstacle

(pratibandaha) in "realising" or being Brahman. Wanting to experience Brahman or

oneness is something like a desire for experiencing a thing, which I think I do

not, or which I am already not experiencing. In my understanding Any Experience

is Experience of Brahman alone. The problem is one always want to “become”

different from what he is already.

 

Having said this, Moksha (definitely not after the so called death) is Jeevan

Mukti and the experience of a Jeevan Mukta is “He always experiences Brahman or

Consciousness alone in Aham (Jeeva), Idam and Easwara. So, he is always in

Bliss, because Brahman is Poornam.

 

“Aprapya Manasa Saha” because Manas itself is Brahman and how can it reach

something or become something, which already it is?

 

Hari Om

 

Mani

 

 

 

 

"V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote:Namaste, Mani-ji

<Knowing that there is no water in a mirage is knowledge about the

mirage.

Knowing that the Sun is fixed and it is the earth that

 

 

 

 

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