Guest guest Posted January 29, 2004 Report Share Posted January 29, 2004 Dear friends Sri Ramana Maharshi talks about the world disappearing when the ego dies and the Self is realised. But, as a realised soul, what is He then experiencing when He hears the questions of disciples? I suppose He experiences the questions as if they were coming from the Self. In this sense the world of objects has diappeared and only the pure Subject remains. Incarnations of the Self sometimes say things that prove they experience the thoughts of 'others' (eg answering questions that disciples have not yet verbalised. I have witnessed this personally while in the presence of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi)but how does the Single Self, the sole Experiencer of all phenomena, experience the experiences of all beings simultaneously? Does the Self only experience the experiences of self-realised souls? Is the Self non-experiential- does It experient anything at all? Can anyone shed some light on this? gwrbrown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2004 Report Share Posted January 30, 2004 Namaste My Understanding. All that the Jnani is doing/ experiencing is only from our point of view. According the Jnani 'he' is not the body. He is rooted in the Self. The body acts, talks, moves etc. by the force of Prarabdha. ( however, a caution- Reading other's thoughts etc. may be Siddhi powers which can be with even non-realized persons) Pranams Sridhar advaitin, "Graham Brown" <gwrbrown> wrote: > Dear friends > Sri Ramana Maharshi talks about the world disappearing > when the ego dies and the Self is realised. But, as a realised soul, > what is He then experiencing when He hears the questions of disciples? > I suppose He experiences the questions as if they were coming from > the Self. In this sense the world of objects has diappeared and only > the pure Subject remains. > Incarnations of the Self sometimes say things that prove they > experience the thoughts of 'others' (eg answering questions that > disciples have not yet verbalised. I have witnessed this personally > while in the presence of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi)but > how does the Single Self, the sole Experiencer of all phenomena, > experience the experiences of all beings simultaneously? > Does the Self only experience the experiences of self-realised souls? > Is the Self non-experiential- does It experient anything at all? > Can anyone shed some light on this? > gwrbrown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Dear Grahamji, All ideas about the experience of the jnani become kinds of speculations. But we can consider the following: 1. We are identified with this body. The seat of this identity is the ego. When the ego goes, what is the Self identified with? What is it that would separate the swaying of the corn in the breeze from the movement of this hand stretching out to take a glass of water? 2. We see ourselves as encapsulated in the body. The body is a kind of enclosure in which we are caged. But the Self is limitless; the body and the world is supported by the Self. We do not see it like this. The jnani knowing the Truth of Self is not enclosed within the body; the jnani is no-where and every-where. 3. The jnani's knowing is not "knowing it to be like that". We are always in a neurotic state where our knowledge is separated from our experience. We loosely call this kind of knowledge "intellectual knowledge". Our knowledge is mediated by the motives of thought. The jnani's knowledge of truth is the experience of truth. The jnani's knowledge cannot be separated from the spontaneity of experience. With regards, Chittaranjan advaitin, "Graham Brown" <gwrbrown> wrote: > Dear friends > Sri Ramana Maharshi talks about the world disappearing > when the ego dies and the Self is realised. But, as a realised soul, > what is He then experiencing when He hears the questions of disciples? > I suppose He experiences the questions as if they were coming from > the Self. In this sense the world of objects has diappeared and only > the pure Subject remains. > Incarnations of the Self sometimes say things that prove they > experience the thoughts of 'others' (eg answering questions that > disciples have not yet verbalised. I have witnessed this personally > while in the presence of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi)but > how does the Single Self, the sole Experiencer of all phenomena, > experience the experiences of all beings simultaneously? > Does the Self only experience the experiences of self-realised souls? > Is the Self non-experiential- does It experient anything at all? > Can anyone shed some light on this? > gwrbrown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2004 Report Share Posted January 31, 2004 Print - Close Window advaitin "Chittaranjan Naik" <chittaranjan_naik Sat, 31 Jan 2004 11:47:48 -0000 Re: Advaita Experience Dear Sri Chittaranji, Namaste. Excuse me for interfering with your postings, but I thought I would try to give my observations based on my very little knowledge. <<All ideas about the experience of the jnani become kinds of speculations.>> 1.<<< We are identified with this body. The seat of this identity is the ego. When the ego goes,>>> To my very little understanding, ego does not go anywhere, because, in absolute reality, it was not there, it is not there, and it will not be there, as it is self only. However, the false ego gets enlightened, on removal of its self-ignorance, about its false identification with body, mind and intellect, and its variety of experiences, through body mind and intellect (bhogaayatanam). When it gets enlightened, just like an actor knows that he is not the role, it continues very much to act, but with the background knowledge that the role itself is false,and it is “pashyannapi na pashyati”, i.e. though it sees itself, the world that confronts it and the Eswara, it does not see any reality in them. Before enlightenment also it was “pashyannapi na pashyati” i.e. while seeing, it did not see the mithyathwam in what he sees and did not see its real swaroopa. It is shifting of one’s vision. The rest of your posting, as you said “are just speculations”, as we cannot say exactly what the Gnani experiences, as experiences themselves are not same from individual to individual. The taste of sugar you feel may/need not be the same as I feel. That is why “the experiences are also mithya, as they depend on the experiencer, experience and experienced, Tripudi. As far as Truth is concerned, can there be any experience (based on our understanding of experience) of Absolute Truth? Any experience involves Dwait, to be more correct Tripudi, and Truth swallows everything, i.e. tripudi, experiencer, experienced and the experience. We may say it is “experience-less experience” just like “I experience my existence”. Does experience of my existence depend on any special experience? With pranams to all and Hari om R.S.Mani Chittaranjan Naik <chittaranjan_naik wrote: SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 namaskaar respected brown ji, you said -- answering questions that disciples have not yet verbalised. I have witnessed this personallywhile in the presence of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi) this is what Jnandev ji mention in jnashweri telling about the various expriences whhen kundalini is awakened-- Then the yogi can see beyond the seas, hear the sounds of heaven, and comprehend the desire of an ant. He can ride on the wind, walk on water without wetting his feet, and in this way he acquires many miraculous powers. (ch.6, sh.14) you said-- how does the Single Self, the sole Experiencer of all phenomena, experience the experiences of all beings simultaneously? single self is present in all beings this self is same in all beings. that's what the scriptures say-- this self is present in all beings(sarvaantar). and in every experience how the self is recognised? Adi Shankaracharya ji said in commentary on kenopnishad that self is recognised as the witness in every experience. my Gurudev told me the same thing once. he said you are having experiences, this is good, but remember one thing the one who is experiencing , one who is the witness, you are that. He also told me that in nirvikalpa samadhi the experience & experiencer get merged, there is no experience & no experiencer. it is the nondual experience in which the differences of 'i' & 'you' are lost. the experience & eexperiencer are one. you asked-- Is the Self non-experiential- does It experient anything at all? self doesn't experience anything it is just the witness. it is jiva who experiences, who awakens. self is already awakened there is no need of any type of experience for the self.how can water have the experience of being wet? but self is known by experiences(by jivas), by awakening to it, that's why it has been called bodhswaroopa(known by awakening). about with regards, gautam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2004 Report Share Posted February 1, 2004 Namaste Maniji, advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > > > 1.<<< We are identified with this body. The seat of this identity is the ego. When the ego goes,>>> > > To my very little understanding, ego does not go anywhere, because, in absolute reality, it was not there, it is not there, and it will not be there, as it is self only. However, the false ego gets enlightened, on removal of its self-ignorance, about its false identification with body, mind and intellect, and its variety of experiences, through body mind and intellect (bhogaayatanam). When it gets enlightened, just like an actor knows that he is not the role, it continues very much to act, but with the background knowledge that the role itself is false,and it is "pashyannapi na pashyati", i.e. though it sees itself, the world that confronts it and the Eswara, it does not see any reality in them. Before enlightenment also it was "pashyannapi na pashyati" i.e. while seeing, it did not see the mithyathwam in what he sees and did not see its real swaroopa. It is shifting of one's vision." The ego cannot see, it is the seen. For the jiva, the ego is seen through the murkiness of avidya in which the identity of the self is mixed up. For the jnani, even if the ego is there, it is the seen just like anything else that is the seen, and therefore there is no sense of agency. Atleast, this is the way it appears to my limited understanding. With regards, Chittaranjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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