Some comments on happiness / pleasure

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I must confess that I have a terrible, evil, sinful, hedonistic

addiction ... writing to this list! :-)

 

 

 

Maniji,

 

I basically agree with all you said. Ignorance is bliss when it is

ignorance of body, mind, desires, etc. Of course, ignorance of the

Self is not bliss. We should be oblivious to objects. That is the

kind of ignorance we are talking about. And you are right that there

is no more seeking once the Self is realized. The seeking I was

referring to was up until that point. Finally, the problem with

children when they grow up is not that they pick up notions of the

Self but that they pick up notions of the self! :-)

 

Later you said something about detachment not being necessary to the

true Advaitin. Of course! But before we realize our nature, we need

the illusory detachment to dispel the illusory ignorance. (This is

not my idea.)

 

 

 

Regarding the Brahmachari discussion:

 

I think it is clear that *craving* is to be considered poisonous to

the mind, just as anger is. This is not the same as moderate

enjoyment in marriage. I am sure it is possible to become realized

in marriage as Yajnavalkya was ... 2 wives in fact! However, the

person enjoying a nice married life needs to ask himself how he would

feel if it were all taken away, by terrorists or earthquakes or

whatever. It is good practice for married people not to think of

lovemaking too much, only when the time is right. What conservative

people such as Muslims and certain Hindus don't like about Western

entertainment is the *obsession* with pleasure and stimulation. I

agree. This kind of obsession surely leads to a vulgar mind.

 

The question regarding marriage is not simply about getting married

or not. It is also about patience and choosing the right mate. One

should be extremely careful about getting married. In America, half

of all marriages end in divorce, and there is much misery before that

point is reached. One should not get married unless there is deep

love, mutual understanding, spiritual commitment and also great

strength of character. Most people should probably not get married!

If young people remain idealistic like this, they will probably

experience a long period of brahmachari whether they want to or not.

:-)

 

Of course, it is possible to have relationships without marriage, but

that leads to feelings of betrayal which can be ugly and painful.

Nobody likes to be thrown in the trash, and most people who do that

to others don't feel good about it inside, unless they really have no

heart. Sometimes brahmachari is simply the path of least resistance

.... for those who want to simplify their lives! There is something

undignified about a life which resembles a soap opera (e.g. a

Bollywood movie) :-)

 

 

 

Dennisji,

 

You think that unfulfilled desires inevitably lead to mental

frustration, so that it is best to pull up the desires by the roots,

as it were. There is probably a lot of wisdom in what you say, but I

also think that such a drastic measure could be psychologically very

dangerous for most people, who are not ready. We must never

underestimate the power of vasanas, nor should we overestimate our

own strength in a moment of enthusiasm. We need to proceed

cautiously with everything.

 

Furthermore, I think that dreams may be very good for some people at

a certain stage of their spiritual development. Those people are not

ready for spirituality per se, but their heart is developing and they

can comprehend romantic love. I remember my romantic dreams back when

I was still young and felt that I had a future full of hope. (No

sympathy is necessary ... I'm simply reporting the facts like a good

scientist!) Those dreams could be very beautiful, even heavenly, and

I think they made me a better person than I would have been

otherwise. I doubt that the evil dictators of the world every wasted

much time with beautiful dreams. Perhaps they should have. Also, I

do feel that without those dreams, I might have gone crazy, as I was

saying above. I think some of the crime and terrorism in the world

results in this way, when people explode inside due to an overload of

frustration. Finally, those dreams can lead naturally to

spirituality ... partly because of the beauty of the dreams and

partly because of the wisdom that arises when they are not fulfilled.

I guess it's a 'win-win' situation, if our attitude is right.

 

If all this talk of romantic love seems silly, I might remind you of

the deep love of Rama for Sita. I have not read the Ramayana, only

abbreviated versions. My point is that we should not be 'politically

correct' Advaitins and pretend that Indians have no heart or

imagination when it comes to such things. It is clear that they do

(thank God).

 

Now, let us make a distinction: sexual desire is not quite the same

as romantic dreams. I've said enough about that above. I don't like

to think of myself as 'conservative', since that doesn't seem to

agree with being 'open-minded', but I do feel a bit squeamish about

the modern tendency to have no reservations whatsoever when

discussing such matters (even in India now). A little delicacy and

subtlety never hurt anyone. If only the morons in the popular

entertainment industry could learn a little delicacy and subtlety. I

guess that's the price we pay for the riches of capitalism. Shall we

have a political discussion now? :-)

 

 

 

Nairji,

 

What you wrote about Buddhism and pain (including your own) and

transcending them in the happiness of the Self was quite amusing, if

you don't mind my saying so. If you know how to transcend pain so

well, then you should be my teacher! You allude to a certain

caricature that Buddhism takes the 'negative' (woe is me!) approach

to spirituality and Advaita takes the positive (Self is me!) approach

to spirituality. If that were true then one should surely discard

Buddhism. Buddha was only sympathizing with those who are suffering,

in order to lead them to the very same transcendence you find in

Advaita. Also, the depressing variety of Buddhism is the early

Buddhism, which is what has been resurrected in India in recent

years. The later Mahayana Buddhism is much more positive and really

is but a thinly disguised version of Vedanta and Advaita. (But I

won't defend this!)

 

Sorry that was so long. At least I specified names so you could read

the part you care about! :-)

 

Hari Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

--- Benjamin <orion777ben wrote:

>

>

> Maniji,

>

> Later you said something about detachment not being necessary to the

> true Advaitin. Of course! But before we realize our nature, we need

> the illusory detachment to dispel the illusory ignorance. (This is

> not my idea.)

 

If one has true understanding of the ilusory nature of the world, the

detachement and ignorance have done their job. When one does not know

the illusory nature of the world, the ignornace and detachement are as

real as the world that one perceives.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

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What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift

to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.