Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Namaste Ranjeetji, advaitin, "Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch> wrote: > > Nairji, your above conclusion is part of the erroneous understanding of > varNa-vyavastha prevailing in our country. The varNa-vyavastha was not > implemented as a tool for racial segregation. The classification was meant > for the upliftment of the people. It was supposed to work as a spiritual > ladder for the individual. The shudra will definitely move up the ladder, if > he is able to cultivate noble values in life. But as you rightly said, > logically a shudra should have some rajas to begin with. > > Excuse me for butting into this discussion between you and Madathil-ji. I just browsed thorugh the online version of Maunsmriti at http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/index.html. It doesn't seem to provide any hope of upliftment for a shudra ( at least not in this life ). And it also defines the categorization around the time of birth itself. Even the names have to match the varNa to which the person belongs (see http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch2/ch2_31_40.html ). How can we justify the varNa-vyavastha as based on swadharma and not birth , while the Dharma shastra itself holds the view that it is based on birth ? This also points to the potential danger of blindly subscribing to the infallibility of scriptures. Whether we like this fact or not, "cAturvarNyam mayAsrushtam " of Gita and the caste categorization of Manusmriti together formed the tool for oppressing large section of people in our country. Revival of varNa-vyavastha shouldn't even be the priority for an Advaitin. In the present situation, a democratic and capitalistic government will be able to provide its citizens with reasonable means to follow their swadharma. This is my humble opinion. Regards, Raj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Namaste All Shri RK NAIR wrote > I just browsed thorugh the online version of Maunsmriti > at http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/index.html. > > It doesn't seem to provide any hope of upliftment > for a shudra ( at least not in this life BG XIII; verse 25 delineates the path conducive to Uttama adhikarins and Madhyama adhikarins.For the low class of aspirants- Swami Chinmayananda's commentary on The Bhagawad Geetha, page 890: " 26. Others also, not knowing this, worship having heard of it from others; they too, cross beyond death, if they would regard what they have heard as their supreme refuge. HAVING HEARD FROM OTHERS - There are some who are not capable of meditation. they neither have the intellectual capacity to follow the logical thoughts in any philosophy, nor the necessary inner equipoise to follow the 'path of action'. Even such people can evolve, though they are ignorant of the 'paths' , if only they worship the principle of Truth on the strength of what they have heard from others. " It looks like a Shudra ( or a 100% tamasic) has not even attained to the level of a low class aspirant described above. Further BG XIV , 16 says ( Swami Chinmayananda's translation) The fruit of good action is sattvic and pure, the fruit of rajas is pain and the fruit of Tamas is ignorance. Reference to verse XIV , 18 ( Swami Chinmayananda's translation) Those who are abiding in Sattwa go upwards; the Rajasic dwell in the middle; and the Tamasic abiding in the function of lowest Guna, go downwards. Now for the part on hope for progress for the Shudra ( i prefer 100% tamasic person ) In the end portion after the 1000 names of the lord, in Vishnusahasranama there is a verse that goes ' Vedantako Brahmanasyat.......' - Brahmin gets knowledge of Vedanta, Kshatriya gets Victory, Vaishya gets prosperity and Shudra gets - Sukha-(?). To me, the first three BG verses seen above are a warning for those in Rajasic or Sattvic modes to guard against a fall into Tamas. However, the last one from Vishnu sahasranama envisages a Shudra chanting the lords glory and names the reward( sukha means temporal pleasure or happiness- someone kindly clarify with reference to context). Don't we see some brilliant hope even for the hardcore tamasic person? Many thousand namaskarams to all Sridhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Namaste Rajkumarji, I admit that manusmrithi has some verses which echos your thoughts. To be frank with you, I havent yet come across a logical explanation for these verses till now. Neither can we set aside manusmrithi since even our achArya has quoted from it ! The Kanchi Seer has dealt with this subject extensively in his book, 'Hindu Dharma'. Can you say that there is no corruption in democratic and capitalistic countries? There are definitely some drawbacks in these systems. Take our own Indian Government, for instance. Isnt bribe a common word in our office corridors? What is the solution? Should we stop all government activities because of this? Or should we try to revive the system? Which is the right solution? Regarding revival of varNa-vyavastha, I am all for it. If it is properly implemented, there wont be any room left for democracy, capitalist or any other such systems. Maybe my concept of Rama-Rajya is just a dream ! Hari Om PS: My apology to all members for the digression from the monthly topic. - "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair > Revival of varNa-vyavastha shouldn't even be the priority for an > Advaitin. In the present situation, a democratic and capitalistic > government will be able to provide its citizens with reasonable means > to follow their swadharma. > This is my humble opinion. > Regards, > Raj. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Namaste, Gita 9:32 maa.n hi paartha vyapaashritya ye.api syuH paapayonayaH | striyo vaishyaastathaa shuudraaste.api yaanti paraaM gatim.h || Gita is a 'smriti' that has acquired the status of an upanishad. The above verse should dispel any doubts as to its catholicity and authority. Sages also advise us : anantashastram bahuveditavyam (Endless are the shastras) ........... yatsaarabhuutaM tadupaasitavyamM (Only the essence must be pracised.) ......... "Give a dog a bad name and then hang it", or "Throw the baby with the bathwater" are not the solutions. Regards, Sunder advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair> wrote: Excuse me for butting into this discussion between you > and Madathil-ji. > I just browsed thorugh the online version of Maunsmriti > at http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/index.html. > > It doesn't seem to provide any hope of upliftment > for a shudra ( at least not in this life ). And it also > defines the categorization around the time of birth itself. Even the > names have to match the varNa to which the person belongs (see > http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch2/ch2_31_40.html ). > > How can we justify the varNa-vyavastha as based on swadharma and > not birth , while the Dharma shastra itself holds the view that it is > based on birth ? > > This also points to the potential danger of blindly subscribing to > the infallibility of scriptures. Whether we like this fact or > not, "cAturvarNyam mayAsrushtam " of Gita and the caste > categorization of Manusmriti together formed the tool for oppressing > large section of people in our country. > Revival of varNa-vyavastha shouldn't even be the priority for an > Advaitin. In the present situation, a democratic and capitalistic > government will be able to provide its citizens with reasonable means > to follow their swadharma. > This is my humble opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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