varna system

[Guest guest]

Raj wrote: Excuse me for butting into this discussion between you

and Madathil-ji.

I just browsed thorugh the online version of Maunsmriti

at http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/index.html.

 

It doesn't seem to provide any hope of upliftment

for a shudra ( at least not in this life ). And it also

defines the categorization around the time of birth itself. Even the

names have to match the varNa to which the person belongs (see

http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch2/ch2_31_40.html ).

 

How can we justify the varNa-vyavastha as based on swadharma and

not birth , while the Dharma shastra itself holds the view that it is

based on birth ?

 

This also points to the potential danger of blindly subscribing to

the infallibility of scriptures. Whether we like this fact or

not, "cAturvarNyam mayAsrushtam " of Gita and the caste

categorization of Manusmriti together formed the tool for oppressing

large section of people in our country.

Revival of varNa-vyavastha shouldn't even be the priority for an

Advaitin. In the present situation, a democratic and capitalistic

government will be able to provide its citizens with reasonable means

to follow their swadharma.

This is my humble opinion.

Regards,

Raj.

 

Namaste and salutations to you Raj for coming out with what seems utterly

obvious to the outsider. A great deal of pious wishful thinking surrounds

this subject. While on the subject of animal sacrifice I waited for someone

to make the point that there is only enough fodder for 3/4 of the cattle in

India (Delhi University Professor of Agriculture). Isn't this cruelty?

 

Best Wishes, Michael

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I would like to request those concerned with reforming the

shastras to move to another forum. This thread is not within the

scope of this list.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> Raj wrote: Excuse me for butting into this discussion between you

> and Madathil-ji.

> I just browsed thorugh the online version of Maunsmriti

> at http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/index.html.

>

> It doesn't seem to provide any hope of upliftment

> for a shudra ( at least not in this life ). And it also

> defines the categorization around the time of birth itself. Even the

> names have to match the varNa to which the person belongs (see

>

http://www.hindubooks.org/scriptures/manusmriti/ch2/ch2_31_40.html ).

>

> How can we justify the varNa-vyavastha as based on swadharma and

> not birth , while the Dharma shastra itself holds the view that it

is

> based on birth ?

>

> This also points to the potential danger of blindly subscribing

to

> the infallibility of scriptures. Whether we like this fact or

> not, "cAturvarNyam mayAsrushtam " of Gita and the caste

> categorization of Manusmriti together formed the tool for oppressing

> large section of people in our country.

> Revival of varNa-vyavastha shouldn't even be the priority for an

> Advaitin. In the present situation, a democratic and capitalistic

> government will be able to provide its citizens with reasonable

means

> to follow their swadharma.

> This is my humble opinion.

> Regards,

> Raj.

>

> Namaste and salutations to you Raj for coming out with what seems

utterly

> obvious to the outsider. A great deal of pious wishful thinking

surrounds

> this subject. While on the subject of animal sacrifice I waited

for someone

> to make the point that there is only enough fodder for 3/4 of the

cattle in

> India (Delhi University Professor of Agriculture). Isn't this

cruelty?

>

> Best Wishes, Michael

[Guest guest]

Namaste SrI Sunder-ji and all members,

 

 

While I dont belong to the category of people who would propose

reforming the shAstra-s, I dont see why the discussion on varNa

should be terminated. Of course, all final decisions rest with the

moderator.

 

 

Regards

Raghavendra

 

 

> Namaste,

>

> I would like to request those concerned with reforming

the

> shastras to move to another forum. This thread is not within the

> scope of this list.

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> Namaste SrI Sunder-ji and all members,

>

>

> While I dont belong to the category of people who would propose

> reforming the shAstra-s, I dont see why the discussion on varNa

> should be terminated. Of course, all final decisions rest with the

> moderator.

>

 

Namaste Raghavendraji,

 

Perhaps I owe you and other members an explanation.

 

The subject tends to become controversial, everyone has a

firm stand on how the issue should be handled, etc.

 

The subject can be discussed on this list provided one

can quote Shankaracharya, or successors in his lineage, with proper

references, or anyone who is acknowledged generally as a sage, to

back one's stand. Reports of personal interviews with the

Mathadhipatis would be even more welcome.

 

Personally, I am averse to getting embroiled in a

controversial issue. All the sages in recent history, even though

they have transcended the shastraic limits, have fostered the limits

for other spiritual aspirants.

 

For example, I would be particularly interested in the

reforms Sri Narayan Guru was able to introduce in Kerala.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

In addition to the excellent points made by Sri Sunder, our chief

moderator, let me add the following:

 

this is not the first time this topic has been discussed. If you

just click on the following link (search providing the list of

discussions on this topic) you will notice there were 86 postings.

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/search.html?query=varna

 

Let us not repeat the same discussions/understandings/controversies

again. Also I have seen in the previous times also, the discussions

went out of scope of this list we were forced to stop. The correct

focus should be on the vedic 'dharma' aspects of Varna system. This

system was degnerated into the present day 'caste system' and many

explanations have been provided and discussed. None of us disagree,

that somehow, the original intent of 'varna system' got lost due to

political/social/foreign interventions. All theories related to this

degeneration is certainly beyond the scope of this list.

 

Also we have an interesting discussion on the 'meaning of happiness'

skillfully and scholarly moderated by Sri Dennis and rightly this

month's focus should be on this important spiritually uplifting

topic. During the monthly discussions, specific questions on several

aspects of advaita are always welcome but long threads become

detrimental to the discussion focusing on the monthly topic.

 

We always appreciate members' understanding and cooperation in

keeping the list discussions focused.

 

Thanks and my warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Sunder Hattangadi" <sunderh>

wrote:

[Guest guest]

Namaste RamChandranji,

 

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...>

wrote:

> Namaste:

> Also we have an interesting discussion on the 'meaning of

> happiness' skillfully and scholarly moderated by Sri Dennis

> and rightly this month's focus should be on this important

> spiritually uplifting topic. During the monthly discussions,

> specific questions on several aspects of advaita are always

> welcome but long threads become detrimental to the discussion

> focusing on the monthly topic.

 

 

Sir, much as I would have liked to avoid it, I am guilty of starting

one such long thread. It is titled "Advaita and adhyasa" and would in

all probability lead to a long and involved discussion. I would like

the moderators to advise whether it should be continued now or be

taken up later when the topic of "Real and Unreal" comes up for

discussion.

 

With regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Chittaranjan:

 

Even with greater efforts, sometimes our discussions go beyond our

true intent of answering a simple question! We have learnt to accept

situations that we can't control (beyond free-will) and could be due

to fate or destiny! You certainly shouldn't feel guilty of bringing

an interesting topic (that is quite relevant to the scope of this

list) to the attention of the members. From the moderators' point of

point of view, we appreciate your efforts. Moderators do not always

control any discussion thread and hate to stop an interesting

discussion.

 

I know members will agree that Sri Sunder (chief moderator) was

forced to interfere when the 'varna' discussion went beyond the

scope and spiritual focus of this list. Responsible members like you

can always exercise your own judgement to stop, continue, or

postpone the discussion accordingly. New threads and questions

always bring ideas for our monthly topic and also help the list to

find discussion leaders such as you!

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

> I would like

> the moderators to advise whether it should be continued now or be

> taken up later when the topic of "Real and Unreal" comes up for

> discussion.

>

> With regards,

> Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

namaste,

i shudder to think what will happen if the

majority turns vegetarian.

even with only 10% of the population being

veg, vegetarianism is quite expensive in comparison!

a.,v.krshnan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, av krshnan <avkrshnan> wrote:

> namaste,

> i shudder to think what will happen if the

> majority turns vegetarian.

> even with only 10% of the population being

> veg, vegetarianism is quite expensive in comparison!

> a.,v.krshnan

>

 

Namaste!

 

I know this is perhaps not within the scope of this list, but I

believe that vegetarianism is economically more sound. Producing

meat consumes a lot of resources. For instance, it takes a lot of

grain to produce meat. I have read somewhere that if the consumption

of meat were reduced by 10%, it would result in enough grain being

made available to root out hunger on this planet.

 

Harih Om!

Neelakantan

[Guest guest]

While replies to this message has been stopped, i would note for the

benefit of all and for anyone who might want to read the past posts,

that the subject of varna is to be dealt with impersonally. The

problem comes when personal statements regarding any communities are

made. In a system that calls itself 'Sanatana dharma', this funny

thing must be addressed. (I request moderators to read this

completely, before censoring it, although the decision will lie with

them)

 

The Gita proclaims:

 

'Chaturvarnyam maya srshtva guna-karma-vibhagashah |

Tasya kartaramapi maam viddhya kartaramavyayam ||'

 

While people note the sanctity of the system (since it is created by

the manifestation of the Absolute Brahman) they forget that in the

very same breath, the Gita also says, 'Guna karma vibhagashah'

(divided on the basis of guna and karma) Birth is not discussed here.

No varna is said to be better or superior here!

 

What the initiator of this discussion calls for is impractical. We

cannot reform the dharmashastras and neither do we need to. This is

in spite of the fact that they may not appear 'Paripoornam and

Parishuddham' to the reformer, because they do appear so to those who

don't want a reform. However, nevertheless there is an answer to your

query if it means to ask the path of liberation for a shudra.

 

Dharma is the path of liberation for one and all - whether born of a

brahman or born of a shudra or born of a mlechcha (one outside the

varna system). Follow dharma. That is the path to liberation. And

what is dharma? (This must be as simple as is possible, never

complicated.) Dharma is that which can free us from bondage. That is

all!

 

How does a shudra follow dharma? Shankara has the best solution:

Bhakti. In fact it is best for all, for from many standpoints, let us

not forget that the knowledge (not intellect) of all others is just

as much as that of any shudra. If people have followed my earlier

posts please note that bhakti is jnana and jnana is bhakti. But the

jnana taken in the form of bhakti is best suited for a shudra. And

jnana is suggested to a person in MORE FORTUNATE CIRCUMASTANCES (not

even anyone belonging to the other varnas)

 

Please note that there are two aims of bhakti, which must be

fulfulled:

1. The good qualities in the ideals provided as Gods must be imbibed

in oneself. This goes for all. All who call themselves theists

surely, and atheists even more.

2. God is to be pleased, if you wish to really please him. He is

always pleased. But if you surely want to show your love for him, you

may do so, BUT DONOT BRIBE HIM. Serve him selflessly.

 

While the Buddha prescribed Vijnana, the use of it may not appeal to

a shudra so easily, it may be noted that for anyone (irrespective of

varna) he undertook to teach dharma, he first taught shraddha

(another name for Bhakti) and surrender (another aspect of bhakti)

after which they were inducted to vijnana.

 

Hence the presciption of Shankara is complete and in agreement by all

(even non-orthodox sects). However, if any shudra finds vijnana

appealing and finds himself capable of following it, he may do so.

The dharmashastras or the Shruthis or Shankara or Buddha do not

condemn a shudra from pursuing vijnana. (Note Vasishtha's origin in

this regard) The dharmashastras do not say that a shudra cannot

attain liberation or donot and cannot condemn one following a path to

liberation.

 

Kindly understand that the post is, and is not in defence of the

dharmashastras, for they donot require any shelter from matters not

discussed within the domain of the dharmashastras. But they need

defence from influences that may lead to misunderstandings in the

soceity, for it is the soceity that follows the dharmashastras and if

they misunderstand it, the soceity shall fall.

 

As long as one strives for liberation following the precepts

of "Ahimsa Satyam Asteyam Shaucham Indriyanigrahah Maunam" the

dharmashastras donot and cannot condemn a person. So an understanding

of the dharmashastras is unnecessary for the one wanting liberation.

Hence (let me point out again, that) reform of the dharmashastras is

simply out of the question, and unnecessary.

 

Satyameva Jayate Naanrtam

[Guest guest]

endaro mahaanubhavulu,

andariki vandanamu.

yes, due to misunderstood

interpretations, our society has suffered greatly.

varnashrama , when it led to

untouchability, is utmost reprehensible.

however, this was not the intended

purpose of the maharishis who set out the

dharmasastras.

anyway, let us see how the rest of

the world has dealt with their so called

unfortunates.

the european settlers of america

just obliterated the red indians mercilessly. then

they enslaved the africans. subsequently they have

decimated the economy of the entire african continent.

 

the germans tried to wipe out the

jews, and killed 6 million of them with the entire

west looking on.

the russians sent them to siberia and

thence to frozen death.

one of the most popular world religions

licenses eliminating the " infidels".

in the former yugoslavia, we have seen

how the serbs, the bosnians etc etc try to cleanse

each other.

in ireland, the catholics want the

protestants cleansed off , and vice versa.

the civilisations of rome, greece, egypt

, etc are no more because each one of them wanted to

cleanse off the earlier ones.

in today's world, ----

@ the middle east has this labour import

system where the importee has no rights

except the meagre salary, and is "deported"

at the slightest "deviation".

he is the "expat" and should exist as but

a shadow, but the whole system will

collapse if he is removed!

@ in singapore, the labourer class goes across

the causeway into malaysia, leaving behind

a clean, heavenly tourist haven!.

@ in hongkong, the labourer class just melts

across the straits into the chinese mainland,

every nightfall.

@ america and the west have now found cheap

labour to be outsourced to, without ever having

to "suffer" them amongst themselves.

@ srilanka has kept the labourers apart for

centuries though they are the backbone

of their economy, and now find themselves

in an unenviable situation.

we can go on an and on.

now back to varnashrama which exists in the

universe wherever you turn to !.

with pranams.,

a.v.krshnan.

 

 

 

..

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- Balaji Ramasubramanian

<balajiramasubramanian wrote: > While

replies to this message has been stopped, i

> would note for the

> benefit of all and for anyone who might want to read

> the past posts,

> that the subject of varna is to be dealt with

> impersonally. The

> problem comes when personal statements regarding any

> communities are

> made. In a system that calls itself 'Sanatana

> dharma', this funny

> thing must be addressed. (I request moderators to

> read this

> completely, before censoring it, although the

> decision will lie with

> them)

>

> The Gita proclaims:

>

> 'Chaturvarnyam maya srshtva guna-karma-vibhagashah |

> Tasya kartaramapi maam viddhya kartaramavyayam ||'

>

> While people note the sanctity of the system (since

> it is created by

> the manifestation of the Absolute Brahman) they

> forget that in the

> very same breath, the Gita also says, 'Guna karma

> vibhagashah'

> (divided on the basis of guna and karma) Birth is

> not discussed here.

> No varna is said to be better or superior here!

>

> What the initiator of this discussion calls for is

> impractical. We

> cannot reform the dharmashastras and neither do we

> need to. This is

> in spite of the fact that they may not appear

> 'Paripoornam and

> Parishuddham' to the reformer, because they do

> appear so to those who

> don't want a reform. However, nevertheless there is

> an answer to your

> query if it means to ask the path of liberation for

> a shudra.

>

> Dharma is the path of liberation for one and all -

> whether born of a

> brahman or born of a shudra or born of a mlechcha

> (one outside the

> varna system). Follow dharma. That is the path to

> liberation. And

> what is dharma? (This must be as simple as is

> possible, never

> complicated.) Dharma is that which can free us from

> bondage. That is

> all!

>

> How does a shudra follow dharma? Shankara has the

> best solution:

> Bhakti. In fact it is best for all, for from many

> standpoints, let us

> not forget that the knowledge (not intellect) of all

> others is just

> as much as that of any shudra. If people have

> followed my earlier

> posts please note that bhakti is jnana and jnana is

> bhakti. But the

> jnana taken in the form of bhakti is best suited for

> a shudra. And

> jnana is suggested to a person in MORE FORTUNATE

> CIRCUMASTANCES (not

> even anyone belonging to the other varnas)

>

> Please note that there are two aims of bhakti, which

> must be

> fulfulled:

> 1. The good qualities in the ideals provided as Gods

> must be imbibed

> in oneself. This goes for all. All who call

> themselves theists

> surely, and atheists even more.

> 2. God is to be pleased, if you wish to really

> please him. He is

> always pleased. But if you surely want to show your

> love for him, you

> may do so, BUT DONOT BRIBE HIM. Serve him

> selflessly.

>

> While the Buddha prescribed Vijnana, the use of it

> may not appeal to

> a shudra so easily, it may be noted that for anyone

> (irrespective of

> varna) he undertook to teach dharma, he first taught

> shraddha

> (another name for Bhakti) and surrender (another

> aspect of bhakti)

> after which they were inducted to vijnana.

>

> Hence the presciption of Shankara is complete and in

> agreement by all

> (even non-orthodox sects). However, if any shudra

> finds vijnana

> appealing and finds himself capable of following it,

> he may do so.

> The dharmashastras or the Shruthis or Shankara or

> Buddha do not

> condemn a shudra from pursuing vijnana. (Note

> Vasishtha's origin in

> this regard) The dharmashastras do not say that a

> shudra cannot

> attain liberation or donot and cannot condemn one

> following a path to

> liberation.

>

> Kindly understand that the post is, and is not in

> defence of the

> dharmashastras, for they donot require any shelter

> from matters not

> discussed within the domain of the dharmashastras.

> But they need

> defence from influences that may lead to

> misunderstandings in the

> soceity, for it is the soceity that follows the

> dharmashastras and if

> they misunderstand it, the soceity shall fall.

>

> As long as one strives for liberation following the

> precepts

> of "Ahimsa Satyam Asteyam Shaucham Indriyanigrahah

> Maunam" the

> dharmashastras donot and cannot condemn a person. So

> an understanding

> of the dharmashastras is unnecessary for the one

> wanting liberation.

> Hence (let me point out again, that) reform of the

> dharmashastras is

> simply out of the question, and unnecessary.

>

> Satyameva Jayate Naanrtam

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

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