request clarification -Tamo guna

[Guest guest]

Many pranams to all advaitins

During the course of my study, my understanding of the difference

between Rajoguna and Tamoguna is getting a bit mixed up. I hope to

tie this back to the subject of happiness. I did a archive search on

tamoguna but could not find a detailed analysis.

 

I will try and articulate my confusion in the form of a question- it

may be very basic, kindly pardon:

 

Rajs binds by attachment to action.Does tamas bind by attachment to

Indolence or by attachment to lower nature?

 

Confusion is because lower nature need not necessarily go hand in

hand with inertia. Evil men tend to be branded tamsic though they are

capable of very energetic action which should make them Rajasic (

performing action with desire for fruits- bad fruits though they may

be).

Or should we say that the difference beween say good man and a bad

man is that one is predominantly Rajasic with higher proportion of

sattva and the other is also predominatly rajasic but with a higher

proportion of Tamas.

I have not taken any character from history or puranas, but if

someone can help with examples I would be grateful.

Many thousand namaskarams to all advaitins

Sridhar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Sridhar:

 

The question that you have raised has been discussed in Gita in

Chapter 14. They are further elaborated in 15 to 18 also. Here is a

summary condensed from Chapter 14: The Yoga of Division of the three

Gunas (Based on Swami Krishnananda's book on Bhagavad Gita). Lord

Krishna's subtle message is that the 'Atman' is beyond all gunas (no

names, forms and attrirbutes) and when we develop the attitude of

witnessing, we can attain the state of "Brahman."

 

There are plenty of examples in our epics, puranas and history:

 

Satvik - Rama, Yudhistra

Rajastic - Arjuna, Lakshmana

Tamasik - Dhruyodhana, Kumbakarana

 

It is important to recognize that everyone possessess all these gunas

but at different times one of the gunas Satvik, Rajastic and Tamasik

becomes dominant and due to that we act differently at different

points of time. I suggest that you read the summary provided below

and if you still have further discussions, we can discuss more.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

 

Chapter 14 Summary:

============================================

Purusha and Prakriti, are the two arms of the Omnipresence. God

works through two hands, and Samkhya philosophy similarly explains

through Prussia and Prakriti.

 

And the subject and the object we are speaking of, consciousness and

matter, are not two different things, they are the two modes of one

seamless being. Here the Bhagavadgita is going head and shoulder

above the dualistic philosophy of Samkhya dogmatism. The Purusha,

which is pure impersonal consciousness, feature less transparency,

works, or rather appears to work, through the medium of Prakriti

which is constituted of the three Gunas, or properties, known as

Sattva Rajas and Tamas. The Fourteenth Chapter is devoted entirely to

a discussion of the nature of these Gunas,the strands of Prakriti,

the Field of action.

 

Pure equilibrium, harmony, luminosity, are the characteristics of

Sattva; distraction, activity, dissipation, division are the

characteristics of Rajas; inertia, stability, fixity, lethargy,

sleepiness, are the characteristics of Tamas. The individual is a

component of all these qualities, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. We are

not free from them at any time. Sometimes the one preponderates and

at other times the other. We pass through various moods in our

lives, some times dejected and melancholy are we, sometimes we are

spirited and active and run about, and sometimes we are sublime and

sober and enlightened in our outlook. But we do not maintain this

attitude throughout the day and night, inasmuch as, like the spokes

of a wheel that moves, which go up and down with the motion of the

wheel.

 

The properties of Prakriti do not maintain a single position always,

they move with the evolutionary process of the cosmos. And with this

evolutionary process we are also dragged as contents of this vast

universe. Hence it is that we are not in any particular mood at all

times. In the progression of the soul in its aspiration and travel

to the Supreme Being it has to transcend the lower for the sake of

the higher. It may appear, for all practical purposes, that we have

to rise from Tamas to Rajas, and from Rajas to Sattva, though this

is not a mathematical movement or travel along a beaten track. There

is a commingling of qualities and we are not always, entirely, in

one state alone.

 

We are not hundred percent Tamasika, hundred percent Rajasika or

hundred percent Sattvika; all these things are present in us always.

Yet there is a tentative need to prepare us for the purpose of a

routine of practice which takes the shape of self-transcendence from

Tamas to Rajas, and from Rajas to Sattva. Those who are Tamasika are

lethargic, stupid, idiotic, in capable of thinking properly and

sleepy, gluttonous, etc. Those who are Rajasika are restless,

passionate, and full of desires, run about here and there, never

finding -peace in them and not having a moment of rest. Those who

are Sattvika are the people of knowledge, sedate in behavior, calm

and judicious in judgement, and these are the aspirants who are

religious and spiritual. People who pass away from this world at the

time of the preponderance of one quality or other have a

corresponding experience after death. Those who die when the quality

of Sattva preponderates go to the higher regions, the realm of

angels, paradise, Svarga-loka as we call it. Those who are Rajasika

if they die in that condition, come back to the mortal world of

restless activity. Tamas drags one down to the nether regions, to

the lower realms of suffering and unconsciousness. These Gunas are

rotating and revolving perpetually like a wheel, and they never rest

in themselves in a state of harmony at any time.

 

The whole universe is constituted of these Gunas, the substance of

Prakriti; inside and outside only these are present. These are the

building bricks of the cosmos. Everyone gets the opportunity to

visualize, unattached, the presence of these characters of Prakriti,

who cognizes the fact that the whole world is a drama played by

these properties. Those who remain as a witness of this entire play

enacted in the arena of experience by the Gunas but stand above them

unaffected and are able to transcend the Gunas and they go beyond

the operations of Prakriti. They are the one fit to enter into the

bosom of Brahman - the Absolute.

[Guest guest]

yes! respected sridhar!

 

The 'gunas' cannot be placed in water-tight comnpartments ... they

overlap! what is rajasic in one context may be sattwic in another.

what is tamasic in one circumstance may be rajasic in another...

and sometimes the action may be rajasic but the results may be

sattwic...

 

for example, rama's killing of ravana is a rajasic act but the

consequences were sattwic...

 

killing is an evil act by itself - so it comes under 'rajo'

and 'tamo' guna but by killing ravana , rama established 'dhrama'

which was beneficial to humanity...therefore , the 'killing' of

Ravana had sattwic consequences... apart from that when Ravana got

slain by Rama, he attained moksha ! a 'saatwic' gati!

 

similarly, Durga demonstrated rajasic qualities when she killed demom

mahisasur but the results were 'sattwic' - triumph of good over evil

so on and so forth!

 

similarly, Mother kali is described as 'tamasic and 'rajasic' but

those who know kali tattwa realize that mother kali is full

of 'sattwa' gunas... her bloodthirsty tongue may look 'tamasic' but

if you examine closely - kali maa is drinking the 'seeds of desire' (

kama - raktabija , the demon represents kama or lust) ... her sword

may be a symbolic weapon representing 'rajo' guna but when that sword

is used to cut a man's ego , the same sword takes on 'sattwic'

qualities!!!

 

similarly, if you look at krishnawatara, there are many such

examples... krishna's killing of 'kamsa' was a rajasic act; but the

results for humanity was sattwic.

 

in narasimhaavatara, you see lord vishnu piercing the 'heart' of

hiranyakashayapu, - again a rajasic act with 'sattwic' consequences!

here again, the demon king attained 'moksha' at the hands of the

lord...

 

every act has in it both rajasic and sattwic element!

 

another example that comes to mind is Kaikeyi asking for her two

boons ... kaikeyi wanted Rama to be banished to the forest 14 years !

a 'tamasic' request born out of ignorance ! but , there would have

been no 'ramayana' if this boon was not granted and Ravana would have

never met his end!

 

so, the three gunas are not mutually exclusive!

 

hari aum!!

[Guest guest]

-thank you sri ramchandran for the appropriate and timely reference

to chapter 14 from srimad Bhagwat Gita!

 

While discussing the three gunas(tamo, rajo and sattwa) we need to

also discuss the fourth aspect that is - that of a GUNATITA -one who

transcends all the three gunas...

 

sri-bhagavan uvaca

prakasam ca pravrttim ca moham eva ca pandava

na dvesti sampravrttani na nivrttani kanksati

 

 

udasina-vad asino gunair yo na vicalyate

guna vartanta ity evam yo 'vatisthati nengate

 

 

sama-duhkha-sukhah sva-sthah sama-lostasma-kancanah

tulya-priyapriyo dhiras tulya-nindatma-samstutih

 

 

manapamanayos tulyas tulyo mitrari-paksayoh

sarvarambha-parityagi gunatitah sa ucyate

 

 

Sri Bhagavan said: O son of Pandu, a person who is gunatita,

transcendental to the three modes, is one who does not hate

illumination, activity and delusion when they occur, nor long for

them when they cease, who is therefore indifferent to, and unmoved

by, the gunas such as happiness and misery, knowing that the modes

alone are acting, who remains undisturbed and even-minded, who is

situated in his svarupa, who considers dirt, stone and gold to be the

same, who is situated equally amidst pleasant and unpleasant events,

who is intelligent, who remains equipoised both in criticism and

glorification and in honour and dishonour, who treats friend and foe

equally, and who has renounced all karma except that required to

maintain the body.

 

chapter 14, verses 22 to 25

 

**********************************************************************

now, i have a comment to make...

 

Arjuna was he full of rajo guna only?

 

Before the beginning of the mahabharatta war, Arjuna exhibited the

qualities of tamo guna... He was in 'darkness' ... he did not want to

take up arms against his own cousin brothers ; he was showing signs

of inertia etc...

 

but once lord krishna explained to him what is 'karma yoga... Arjuna

was ready to fight ; he became determined to defend his rights to the

kingdom so he developed the 'leadership' qualities - characterstic of

rajio guna ... he became 'passionate' to the cause...

 

and but arjuna also exhibited qualities of sattwa in the battlefield.

He followed all the codes of conduct of a kshatriya . He did not

resort to 'deception' etc...

 

so, in the same arjuna - one can witness all the three qualities...

 

**********************************************************************

hari aum!!!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Ramji

 

I must thank you for your kindness. I am reading commentaries on the

chapters you have mentioned. As the lord has decided to keep me busy

with other things.. work etc.,.. It looks like it is going to be a

month or so before I read the three chapters thoroughly.

 

Adisakthiji- many thanks for your messages as well- I am trying to

take them in .

 

I understood that different Gunas become prominent at different

points in time. Our classification of say Duryodhana, would be on the

basis of his predominant Guna.

 

I still am not clear if

 

Tamasic person = evil person

or

Tamasic person = lazy person.

 

Some may argue that lazy person equals evil person and hence both the

above equations are valid. However I don't seem to be sure.

 

However, as you suggested let me complete my swadhyaya on this and

come back with questions.

Many thousand namaskarams to all advaitins

Sridhar

 

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...>

wrote:

> Namaste Sri Sridhar:

>

> The question that you have raised has been discussed in Gita in

> Chapter 14. They are further elaborated in 15 to 18 also. Here is a

> summary condensed from Chapter 14: The Yoga of Division of the

three

> Gunas (Based on Swami Krishnananda's book on Bhagavad Gita). Lord

> Krishna's subtle message is that the 'Atman' is beyond all gunas

(no

> names, forms and attrirbutes) and when we develop the attitude of

> witnessing, we can attain the state of "Brahman."

>

> There are plenty of examples in our epics, puranas and history:

>

> Satvik - Rama, Yudhistra

> Rajastic - Arjuna, Lakshmana

> Tamasik - Dhruyodhana, Kumbakarana

>

> It is important to recognize that everyone possessess all these

gunas

> but at different times one of the gunas Satvik, Rajastic and

Tamasik

> becomes dominant and due to that we act differently at different

> points of time. I suggest that you read the summary provided below

> and if you still have further discussions, we can discuss more.

>

> Warmest regards,

>

> Ram Chandran

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you asridhar!

 

my pleasure!

 

our beloved member asridhar has mentioned some examples...

 

for example ... Yudhistra - the eldest brother of the PANDAVAS...

 

yes! Yuddhistra was full of sattwic qualities... he was known for

always speaking the 'truth' under all circumstances .... but like all

hunmans, yuddhistra also suffered from a vice - his addiction

to 'gambling' ... because of this addiction, he gambled away all his

wealth including his wife.Draupadi.... so the same character

yuddhistra had both sattwic and tamasic qualities...

 

then, of course, we have Duryodhana, the eldest brother of the

kaurvas, who was known for both 'tamasic' and rajasic qualities.

Duryodhana was known for his greed, coveteousness, lust for women ,

arrogance, false pride etc.... but on one rare occassion, duryodhana

demonstarated that he is also man of compassion ... WHen the pandacas

refused to fight with karna saying that he belongs to a lower caste

(fisherman) and not a kshatriya (warrior clan) duryodhana saved karna

from humilation by Making him a ruler of a small province in his

kingdom and giving him a status of a kshatriya.... for this Karna was

eternally grateful and decided to help the kaurvas in the mahabharata

war! so, if you ask karna, karna will never say 'duryodhana' is evil;

rather karna will say his own brothers pandavas were cruel for

ridiculing him.

 

here, i would like to quote a verse from kahlil gibran's "Good and

Evil" from Prophet

 

You are good when you strive to give of yourself.

Yet you are not evil when you seek gain for yourself.

For when you strive for gain you are but a root that clings to

the earth and sucks at her breast.

Surely the fruit cannot say to the root, "Be like me, ripe and

full and ever giving of your abundance."

For to the fruit giving is a need, as receiving is a need to the

root.

 

 

 

 

so, all these Gunas, as i have emphasized in my earlier posts as

well are 'relative' concepts .... there is no one, absolutely no one,

who is full of one guna only .... we human beings are a bundle of

complex emotions ....

 

and therefore who is the one who is 'Nirguna' without attributes...

 

BRAHMAN !

 

yes, advaita ACCEPTS Nirguna BraHman as the absolute reality but what

is adi shankara's take on saguna brahman?

 

Shankara Bhagvadpada says:

 

nirguNam apisadbrahma nAmarUpagatiguNaih saguNam upAsanArtham tatra

tatra upadishyate |

 

Although Brahman is Nirguna, yet for purposeS of meditation (upAsanA)

the SaguNa Brahman endowed with qualities like name, form, etc, is

taught.

 

SO, WHERE ARE WE HEADING FOLKS IN ALL THESE DEBATES?

 

Adi Shankara says ....

 

shabdajAlam mahAraNyam cittabhramaNakAraNam

atah prayatnAj JnAtavyam tattvajnaistattvamAtmanah ||

 

 

An elaborate network of words is similar to a thick forest where the

mind might get lost in wandering (endlessly). Therefore, those who

know this fact (about words) must undertake an effort to experience

Brahman.

(Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 60)

 

and what is the best way to experience Brahman? through the path of

Bhakti!!!

 

mokShakAraNasAmagryAm bhaktireva garIyasI

svasvarUpAnusandhAnam bhaktirityabhidhIyate ||

 

Among all paths to liberation (moksha), Bhakti (devotion) is the

best. Striving to know one's true nature is called Bhakti.

(Shankaracharya's Vivekacudamani, Verse 31)

 

SO, folks join me in singing the glories of the divine mother on this

third day of vasant navaratri!

 

shrIrAjarAjeshvaryaShTakam

 

 

ambA shAmbhavi candramaulirabalA.aparNA umA pArvatI

kAlI haimavatI shivA trinayanI kAtyAyanI bhairavI |

sAvitrI navayauvanA shubhakarI sAmrAjyalakShmIpradA

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 1 ||

 

ambA mohini devatA tribhuvanI AnandasandAyinI

vANI pallavapANiveNumuralIgAnapriyA lolinI |

kalyANI uDurAjabimbavadanA dhUmrAkShasaMhAriNI

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 2 ||

 

ambA nUpuraratnakaN^kaNadharI keyUrahArAvalI

jAtIcampakavaijayantilaharI graiveyakairAjitA |

vINAveNuvinodamaNDitakarA vIrAsane saMsthitA

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 3 ||

 

ambA raudriNi bhadrakAli bagalA jvAlAmukhI vaiShNavI

brahmANI tripurAntakI suranutA dedIpyamAnojvalA |

cAmuNDA shritarakShapoShajananI dAkShAyaNI vallavI

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 4 ||

 

ambA shUladhanuH kashAN^kushadharI ardhendubimbAdharI

vArAhI madhukaiTabhaprashamanI vANIramAsevitA |

malladyAsuramUkadaityamathanI mAheshvarI cAmbikA

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 5 ||

 

ambA s.rShTavinAshapAlanakarI AryA visaMshobhitA gAyatrI

praNavAkSharAm.rtarasaH pUrNAnusandhI k.rtA|

oMkArI vinatAsutArcitapadA uddaNDadaityApahA

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 6 ||

 

ambA shAshvata AgamAdivinutA AryA mahAdevatA

yA brahmAdipipIlikAntajananI yA vai jaganmohinI |

yA pa~ncapraNavAdirephajananI yA citkalA mAlinI

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 7 ||

 

ambApAlitabhaktarAjadanishaM ambAShTakaM yaH paThet

ambAlolakaTAkShavIkShalalitaM caishvaryamavyAhatam |

ambA pAvanamantrarAjapaThanAdante ca mokShapradA

cidrUpI paradevatA bhagavatI shrIrAjarAjeshvarI || 8 ||

 

|| iti shrIrAjarAjeshvaryaShTakaM saMpUrNam ||

 

 

**********************************************************************

could someone provide the english translation for the benefit of

members who are not familiar with the sanskrit language?

 

love and blessings