Guest guest Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Namaste, All “MAYA” concept was known to Saiva Siddhanta, much before the advent Adi Shankaracharya. So, “Maya” was not something Adi Shanakaracharya introduced while teaching Advaita. In “Thiru Mandhiram”, a Tamil Book on Saiva Siddhanta, authored by “Thiru Moola Nayanar” there is description of Maya. As the Preface to this book says, in fact the whole work talks about Maya and its effect, etc. The time of Thiru Moola Nayanar, as the book says was 6000 BC! I cannot say whether it is a fact or not; but the book puts his period as 6000 BC. About Maya, He says: “Maamayai mayai immayai mayakkum manamayai than mayum matrondum illai pinai mayvathillai pithatravum vendam thanai ayanthu iruppathe tatthuvam thane” ---Maya, the great maya, this Maya confuses, the effect of maya in the mind only vanishes, nothing else happens, the suffering does not change, vanish, do not utter that everything vanishes, doing self analysis/enquiry alone is the ultimate Truth--- In Kanthar Anubhooti, a reference to this “Pasuram” i.e. stanza from Thiru Mandhiram is made, i.e. 5th song of KA: “Makamayai kalainthida vallapiran mukam arumozhinthu mozhithilane akam adaimadanthair enrayarunch saka mayai unintru thayankuvathe” ---On the Great Lord’s, capable of removing Maya, when teaches through his six faces, I get freed from the grip of that Maya, and if I am so freed from the grip of Maya, why should I be subjected to confusion by the grip by the Jagat Maya, i.e. properties, such as house, clothing’s, etc. and the female sex----- {NOTE - I am not at all conversant Tamil language, and so my translation may not be accurate}. Kanthar Anubhuti, of Sage Arunachalam dates 400 yeas back. It is not correct to say Adi Shakaracharya was “Mayavadi”, as the concept of Maya was already there quite long ago prior to His Avatara (Visit to this Planet Earth for the benefit of the people suffering under Ignorance of Self). Some of the Group Members, well versed in Tamil and Tamil literature may further discuss Thiru Mandhiram. The subject matter of Thiru Mandhiram is “Thirumanthiram - Brief of the tantras Thirumandiram has nine tantras and an exordium (pAyiram). The topics explained in them are given briefly here. Exordium (Introduction - pAyiram) To start with the saint Thirumuular hails the Lord Shiva, the Supreme. Expressing his humbleness in front of the Limitless Lord Siva, the saint discusses the glory of vedas, Agamas. He also gives an account of his past incidents, guru and also indicates the count of the hymns he composed (3000). First Tantra In this chapter the sage explains about the transient, not lasting characteristics of youth, body and wealth and advices adhere to the discipline and good characters. This tantra is ascribed to be the essence of kAraNa Agama. Second Tantra When the individual stands in such a discipline, the Grace bestowed upon by the God is described in this tantra. The purANic events like burning of three cities, blessing viShNu with disc, standing beyond the reach of braHma and viShNu are indicated in this tantra. This is said to be the essence of kAmika Agama. Third Tantra Holding to that Grace of God, the ways to unify the mind with the Supreme is discussed in this tantra. This tantra deals with the aShTanga Yoga, i.e. yama, niyama, Asana, prANAyAma, pratyAhAra, dhAraNa, dyAna, samAdi. The essence of vIrAgama is said to be presented here. (What was the period of Patanjali? Can anyone in the Group say, as he must be before the period of Thiru Moolar) Fourth Tantra The splendid mantras and their glory for the seeker who tries to get to a union with the Supreme are explained here. It describes the Holy Five Syllables (panychAkshara), six AdhAra chakras and various other chakras. This is said to deal with the essence of cintya Agama. Fifth Tantra The path tread by the devotees who stand receiving the unparalleled Grace of the God is explained in this chapter. This deals with the charya, kriya, yoga and GYAna disciplines. This is the essence of vAtuLa Agama, it is said. Sixth Tantra The maturing of the seeker by the grace of the guru and the Divine is dealt with in this tantra. The greatness of the holy forms and the Holy Ash is explained here. This tantra is said to be the essence of vyAmaLa Agama. Seventh Tantra The worship procedures that streamline the spring of devotion towards the God are the topics discussed in this chapter. Controlling the senses are also the topics of discussion. kAlOttara Agama's essence is said to be this tantra. Eighth tantra The spiritual benefits that are obtained as one progresses this way towards the Supreme are described in this. tatvamasi its meaning, and the avastas are dealt with in this chapter. This is said to be the essence of suprabeda Agama. Nineth Tantra The bliss these matured souls get by the Divine Grace is told in this tantra. Various panchAksharas are described here. sUnya sambashanai is a section of cryptic deep meanings. This tantra is said to be the essence of makuTa Agama.” www.shaivam.org Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > > The subject matter of Thiru Mandhiram is > > "Thirumanthiram - Brief of the tantras > > Thirumandiram has nine tantras and an exordium (pAyiram). The topics explained in them are given briefly here. > Namaste, The complete translated text is at URL: http://www.himalayanacademy.com/books/tirumantiram/TableOfContents.htm l Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Namaste, > Namaste, All > "MAYA" concept was known to Saiva Siddhanta, much before the advent Adi Shankaracharya. So, "Maya" was not something Adi Shanakaracharya introduced while teaching Advaita. I am not sure if Saiva siddhAnta is older than advaita. Btw, I dont think Adi SankarAchArya copied from Saiva siddhAnta. Rather, I believe it is the other way round. > In "Thiru Mandhiram", a Tamil Book on Saiva Siddhanta, authored by "Thiru Moola Nayanar" there is description of Maya. As the Preface to this book says, in fact the whole work talks about Maya and its effect, etc. The time of Thiru Moola Nayanar, as the book says was > > 6000 BC! I cannot say whether it is a fact or not; but the book puts his period as 6000 BC. It is obviously false! The Tamil language itself is not so old. >It is not correct to say Adi Shakaracharya was "Mayavadi", as the >concept of >Maya was already there quite long ago prior to His Avatara (Visit to >this Planet >Earth for the benefit of the people suffering under Ignorance of >Self). Let us leave the question as to whether or not the concept of mAyA was there before Sankara or not. Assuming that it is there in Saiva siddhAnta texts, that does not add any credibility to the position of advaita, because advaitins do not accept the Saiva literature (different from Siva purANa etc.) as Sruti or smRti. Regards Raghavendra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2004 Report Share Posted April 6, 2004 Namaste all, > Let us leave the question as to whether or not the concept of mAyA > was there before Sankara or not. Assuming that it is there in Saiva > siddhAnta texts, that does not add any credibility to the position of > advaita, because advaitins do not accept the Saiva literature > (different from Siva purANa etc.) as Sruti or smRti. I agree, but for a different reason. Whether it adds credibility to Advaita is entirely out of the question. Let us all just simply try to realize the Supreme Brahman, the Absolute Truth. Again, whether Tamil dates back to 6000 BC or not (although, even I doubt if it is so old) does not matter at all. If Shaiva literature talks of maya, good. Shows that many people have realized the same truth as has been detailed in Vedanta. But that shows something more important - That even we can do so. We must do so. And must try to do so in this birth itself. Why we must do so, today itself. No we must try it now itself! Satyameva Jayate Naanrtam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2004 Report Share Posted April 7, 2004 Namaste Maniji, This is an interesting article. However, Thirumular uses the Shaiva Agamas as pramana for thirumanthiram. The language of the Agamas do not pre-date the Rig Veda. And Thriumular also states that he was a colleague of Rishi Patanjali (author of Yoga Sutras) in the Thirumanthiram.. Therefore, the dating seems to be far off reality. best regards, K Kathirasan > > R.S.MANI [sMTP:r_s_mani] > Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:31 PM > advaitin > Concept of "Maya" - dates back to 6000BC! > > > > Namaste, All > "MAYA" concept was known to Saiva Siddhanta, much before the advent Adi > Shankaracharya. So, "Maya" was not something Adi Shanakaracharya > introduced while teaching Advaita. > > In "Thiru Mandhiram", a Tamil Book on Saiva Siddhanta, authored by "Thiru > Moola Nayanar" there is description of Maya. As the Preface to this book > says, in fact the whole work talks about Maya and its effect, etc. The > time of Thiru Moola Nayanar, as the book says was > > 6000 BC! I cannot say whether it is a fact or not; but the book puts his > period as 6000 BC. > > About Maya, He says: > > "Maamayai mayai immayai mayakkum > > manamayai than mayum matrondum illai > > pinai mayvathillai pithatravum vendam > > thanai ayanthu iruppathe tatthuvam thane" > > ---Maya, the great maya, this Maya confuses, the effect of maya in the > mind only vanishes, nothing else happens, the suffering does not change, > vanish, do not utter that everything vanishes, doing self analysis/enquiry > alone is the ultimate Truth--- > > In Kanthar Anubhooti, a reference to this "Pasuram" i.e. stanza from Thiru > Mandhiram is made, i.e. 5th song of KA: > > "Makamayai kalainthida vallapiran > > mukam arumozhinthu mozhithilane > > akam adaimadanthair enrayarunch > > saka mayai unintru thayankuvathe" > > ---On the Great Lord's, capable of removing Maya, when teaches through his > six faces, I get freed from the grip of that Maya, and if I am so freed > from the grip of Maya, why should I be subjected to confusion by the grip > by the Jagat Maya, i.e. properties, such as house, clothing's, etc. and > the female sex----- > > {NOTE - I am not at all conversant Tamil language, and so my translation > may not be accurate}. > > Kanthar Anubhuti, of Sage Arunachalam dates 400 yeas back. > > It is not correct to say Adi Shakaracharya was "Mayavadi", as the concept > of Maya was already there quite long ago prior to His Avatara (Visit to > this Planet Earth for the benefit of the people suffering under Ignorance > of Self). > > Some of the Group Members, well versed in Tamil and Tamil literature may > further discuss Thiru Mandhiram. > > The subject matter of Thiru Mandhiram is > > "Thirumanthiram - Brief of the tantras > > Thirumandiram has nine tantras and an exordium (pAyiram). The topics > explained in them are given briefly here. > > > > > > Exordium (Introduction - pAyiram) > > To start with the saint Thirumuular hails the Lord Shiva, the Supreme. > Expressing his humbleness in front of the Limitless Lord Siva, the saint > discusses the glory of vedas, Agamas. He also gives an account of his past > incidents, guru and also indicates the count of the hymns he composed > (3000). > > > > First Tantra > > In this chapter the sage explains about the transient, not lasting > characteristics of youth, body and wealth and advices adhere to the > discipline and good characters. This tantra is ascribed to be the essence > of kAraNa Agama. > > > > Second Tantra > > When the individual stands in such a discipline, the Grace bestowed upon > by the God is described in this tantra. The purANic events like burning of > three cities, blessing viShNu with disc, standing beyond the reach of > braHma and viShNu are indicated in this tantra. This is said to be the > essence of kAmika Agama. > > > > Third Tantra > > Holding to that Grace of God, the ways to unify the mind with the Supreme > is discussed in this tantra. This tantra deals with the aShTanga Yoga, > i.e. yama, niyama, Asana, prANAyAma, pratyAhAra, dhAraNa, dyAna, samAdi. > The essence of vIrAgama is said to be presented here. > > (What was the period of Patanjali? Can anyone in the Group say, as he must > be before the period of Thiru Moolar) > > > > Fourth Tantra > > The splendid mantras and their glory for the seeker who tries to get to a > union with the Supreme are explained here. It describes the Holy Five > Syllables (panychAkshara), six AdhAra chakras and various other chakras. > This is said to deal with the essence of cintya Agama. > > > > Fifth Tantra > > The path tread by the devotees who stand receiving the unparalleled Grace > of the God is explained in this chapter. This deals with the charya, > kriya, yoga and GYAna disciplines. This is the essence of vAtuLa Agama, it > is said. > > > > Sixth Tantra > > The maturing of the seeker by the grace of the guru and the Divine is > dealt with in this tantra. The greatness of the holy forms and the Holy > Ash is explained here. This tantra is said to be the essence of vyAmaLa > Agama. > > > > Seventh Tantra > > The worship procedures that streamline the spring of devotion towards the > God are the topics discussed in this chapter. Controlling the senses are > also the topics of discussion. kAlOttara Agama's essence is said to be > this tantra. > > > > Eighth tantra > > The spiritual benefits that are obtained as one progresses this way > towards the Supreme are described in this. tatvamasi its meaning, and the > avastas are dealt with in this chapter. This is said to be the essence of > suprabeda Agama. > > > > Nineth Tantra > > The bliss these matured souls get by the Divine Grace is told in this > tantra. Various panchAksharas are described here. sUnya sambashanai is a > section of cryptic deep meanings. This tantra is said to be the essence of > makuTa Agama." > > www.shaivam.org > > > > > Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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