Guest guest Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Namaste Kathiresanji, and all, It is kind of you to read my posting on “Maya” I do not know the period of Tirumular. I mentioned in my posting that the book “I have read” states the period as 6000 BC. However, the only purpose of my posting was to state that “Maya” concept was there much before Sri Adi Shankaracharya, as He is branded as “Mayavadi” by many schools, who have not appreciated/understood his Teaching. He used the concept of Maya and Avidya only to correct the fundamental error in our knowledge about the creation, creator, i.e. Eswara, and about one’s own Self. You kindly mentioned in another post that Sabda Pramana is a direct means of knowledge. Agreed, Sabda Pramanam is one of the Valid Means of Knowledge. However, in the case of Sabda Pramanam (SP), even after hearing the Sabda or even after the pramana (means of knowledge), Prameya (object of knowledge) and Pramaatru (knower), are there, Prama (knowledge) can take place generally only after enquiry. The Guru helps in this enquiry. For example in the case of “Tatwam Asi”, i.e. You are That, the knowledge of You being That does not take place immediately. It is not like the knowledge that takes place when one sees a jar “This is a jar”. In the case of “Tatwamasi” the knowledge of unity of two “objects” (?) having entirely opposite natures, i.e. “That” is Sarvajna, Sarvavyapi and Sarvashaktiman, and “Thou” is Alpjna, Alpavyapi and Alpashaktiman, is unfolded after enquiry with the help of a Guru. This knowledge requires enquiry and Guru’s (maybe even in the form of Bhasyas, etc.) help so that the intended knowledge takes place. It is in this connection that I mentioned in my mail that there is the necessity of a Guru, and also one’s own “manana”. Otherwise, why so many Bhashyas and commentaries on Vedanta particularly? Even the sons of Brahma, i.e. Sanaka, etc. had to go to Lord Dakshinamurthy although they did have exposure to the sabda pramanam. Even for mathematics, etc. we require a teacher, although the books on such subjects also are sabda pramanas. Even for knowing that SP is a valid means of knowledge we require a Guru like Poojya Swami Dayanandaji; then what to speak of “Tatwam Asi”. In this context, the question of Anthakarana Shudhi is always brought up for Prama, i.e. knowledge to take place through Sabda Pramana i.e. knowledge of “Jeevabrahmaikyam” to take place. However, what is this degree of Anthakarana shudhi? I feel although antharana shudhi should be there to some extent, i.e. a mind free from prejudice, and full of Sradha for the words of the Shruties and the Guru, further anthakaranashudhi takes place side by side, slowly but certainly, as one proceeds with the assimilation of self knowledge. This assimilation requires not only one’s own effort (Manana), but also guidance from a Guru and, and such guidance can be from the Bhashyas, and Bhashyakaras themselves are Gurus. The assimilation of the knowledge in my opinion, is very very important, without which though the knowledge is there, it will not help one to reach the goal. It is from the above angle that I mentioned sabda pramana as indirect knowledge, and I did not mean SP is an indirect means of knowledge. SP gives indeterminate knowledge and not determinate knowledge like “This is a jar”. This is how I understand the whole subject, and I am sure our learned members always are there to help me to correct wherever required, and, I am sure, it is for such correction through parasparabodhanam, the Group is striving for. Hari Om and warm regards to all K Kathirasan NCS <kkathir wrote:Namaste Maniji, This is an interesting article. However, Thirumular uses the Shaiva Agamas as pramana for thirumanthiram. The language of the Agamas do not pre-date the Rig Veda. And Thriumular also states that he was a colleague of Rishi Patanjali (author of Yoga Sutras) in the Thirumanthiram.. Therefore, the dating seems to be far off reality. best regards, K Kathirasan > > R.S.MANI [sMTP:r_s_mani] > Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:31 PM > advaitin > Concept of "Maya" - dates back to 6000BC! > > > > Namaste, All > "MAYA" concept was known to Saiva Siddhanta, much before the advent Adi > Shankaracharya. So, "Maya" was not something Adi Shanakaracharya > introduced while teaching Advaita. > > In "Thiru Mandhiram", a Tamil Book on Saiva Siddhanta, authored by "Thiru > Moola Nayanar" there is description of Maya. As the Preface to this book > says, in fact the whole work talks about Maya and its effect, etc. The > time of Thiru Moola Nayanar, as the book says was > > 6000 BC! I cannot say whether it is a fact or not; but the book puts his > period as 6000 BC. > > About Maya, He says: > > "Maamayai mayai immayai mayakkum > > manamayai than mayum matrondum illai > > pinai mayvathillai pithatravum vendam > > thanai ayanthu iruppathe tatthuvam thane" > > ---Maya, the great maya, this Maya confuses, the effect of maya in the > mind only vanishes, nothing else happens, the suffering does not change, > vanish, do not utter that everything vanishes, doing self analysis/enquiry > alone is the ultimate Truth--- > > In Kanthar Anubhooti, a reference to this "Pasuram" i.e. stanza from Thiru > Mandhiram is made, i.e. 5th song of KA: > > "Makamayai kalainthida vallapiran > > mukam arumozhinthu mozhithilane > > akam adaimadanthair enrayarunch > > saka mayai unintru thayankuvathe" > > ---On the Great Lord's, capable of removing Maya, when teaches through his > six faces, I get freed from the grip of that Maya, and if I am so freed > from the grip of Maya, why should I be subjected to confusion by the grip > by the Jagat Maya, i.e. properties, such as house, clothing's, etc. and > the female sex----- > > {NOTE - I am not at all conversant Tamil language, and so my translation > may not be accurate}. > > Kanthar Anubhuti, of Sage Arunachalam dates 400 yeas back. > > It is not correct to say Adi Shakaracharya was "Mayavadi", as the concept > of Maya was already there quite long ago prior to His Avatara (Visit to > this Planet Earth for the benefit of the people suffering under Ignorance > of Self). > > Some of the Group Members, well versed in Tamil and Tamil literature may > further discuss Thiru Mandhiram. > > The subject matter of Thiru Mandhiram is > > "Thirumanthiram - Brief of the tantras > > Thirumandiram has nine tantras and an exordium (pAyiram). The topics > explained in them are given briefly here. > > > > > > Exordium (Introduction - pAyiram) > > To start with the saint Thirumuular hails the Lord Shiva, the Supreme. > Expressing his humbleness in front of the Limitless Lord Siva, the saint > discusses the glory of vedas, Agamas. He also gives an account of his past > incidents, guru and also indicates the count of the hymns he composed > (3000). > > > > First Tantra > > In this chapter the sage explains about the transient, not lasting > characteristics of youth, body and wealth and advices adhere to the > discipline and good characters. This tantra is ascribed to be the essence > of kAraNa Agama. > > > > Second Tantra > > When the individual stands in such a discipline, the Grace bestowed upon > by the God is described in this tantra. The purANic events like burning of > three cities, blessing viShNu with disc, standing beyond the reach of > braHma and viShNu are indicated in this tantra. This is said to be the > essence of kAmika Agama. > > > > Third Tantra > > Holding to that Grace of God, the ways to unify the mind with the Supreme > is discussed in this tantra. This tantra deals with the aShTanga Yoga, > i.e. yama, niyama, Asana, prANAyAma, pratyAhAra, dhAraNa, dyAna, samAdi. > The essence of vIrAgama is said to be presented here. > > (What was the period of Patanjali? Can anyone in the Group say, as he must > be before the period of Thiru Moolar) > > > > Fourth Tantra > > The splendid mantras and their glory for the seeker who tries to get to a > union with the Supreme are explained here. It describes the Holy Five > Syllables (panychAkshara), six AdhAra chakras and various other chakras. > This is said to deal with the essence of cintya Agama. > > > > Fifth Tantra > > The path tread by the devotees who stand receiving the unparalleled Grace > of the God is explained in this chapter. This deals with the charya, > kriya, yoga and GYAna disciplines. This is the essence of vAtuLa Agama, it > is said. > > > > Sixth Tantra > > The maturing of the seeker by the grace of the guru and the Divine is > dealt with in this tantra. The greatness of the holy forms and the Holy > Ash is explained here. This tantra is said to be the essence of vyAmaLa > Agama. > > > > Seventh Tantra > > The worship procedures that streamline the spring of devotion towards the > God are the topics discussed in this chapter. Controlling the senses are > also the topics of discussion. kAlOttara Agama's essence is said to be > this tantra. > > > > Eighth tantra > > The spiritual benefits that are obtained as one progresses this way > towards the Supreme are described in this. tatvamasi its meaning, and the > avastas are dealt with in this chapter. This is said to be the essence of > suprabeda Agama. > > > > Nineth Tantra > > The bliss these matured souls get by the Divine Grace is told in this > tantra. Various panchAksharas are described here. sUnya sambashanai is a > section of cryptic deep meanings. This tantra is said to be the essence of > makuTa Agama." > > www.shaivam.org > > > > > Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today > > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of > Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages advaitin/ advaitin Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2004 Report Share Posted April 8, 2004 Thank you maniji for another 'informative' post ! all your posts are very readable and we learn so much from you and other learned members of this satsangha on a daily basis. you write and this is specially significant on a day to dedicated to Guru (brihaspativaar-thursday) , ("This assimilation requires not only one's own effort (Manana), but also guidance from a Guru and, and such guidance can be from the Bhashyas, and Bhashyakaras themselves are Gurus." ) my response tRue! very True ! yes, but to understand the Bhasyas themselves we need the 'mercy' of the Guru... adi shankara in a tribute to Guru says in this verse ... úaãañgádivedo mukhe ùástraivdyá kavitvádi gradyam supadyam karoti manaùcenna lagnam gurorañghripadme tataç kim tataç kim tataç kim tataç kim ) The Vedas with their six auxiliaries and knowledge of sciences may be on the one's lips; one may have the gift of poesy; and may compose good prose and poetry; but if one's mind be not attached to the lotus feet of the Guru, what thence, what thence, what thence, what thence? so, unless we have the Mercy of Guru and ambaal, no amount of reading of scriptures will help us gain the knowledge! AUM SRI GURAVE NAMAHA ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Sri Adiji, Namaste It is nice of yu to go through my posting. I fully agree, withut the mercy of the Lord and the Guru, we will even not be able to raise our little finger, let alone understand the Vedartha. Sadashva Samarambham ourSalutations upto Asmadacharya Paryantham. Warm regards Mani Thank you maniji for another 'informative' post ! all your posts are very readable and we learn so much from you and other learned members of this satsangha on a daily basis. you write and this is specially significant on a day to dedicated to Guru (brihaspativaar-thursday) , ("This assimilation requires not only one's own effort (Manana), but also guidance from a Guru and, and such guidance can be from the Bhashyas, and Bhashyakaras themselves are Gurus." ) my response tRue! very True ! yes, but to understand the Bhasyas themselves we need the 'mercy' of the Guru... adi shankara in a tribute to Guru says in this verse ... úaãañgádivedo mukhe ùástraivdyá kavitvádi gradyam supadyam karoti manaùcenna lagnam gurorañghripadme tataç kim tataç kim tataç kim tataç kim ) The Vedas with their six auxiliaries and knowledge of sciences may be on the one's lips; one may have the gift of poesy; and may compose good prose and poetry; but if one's mind be not attached to the lotus feet of the Guru, what thence, what thence, what thence, what thence? so, unless we have the Mercy of Guru and ambaal, no amount of reading of scriptures will help us gain the knowledge! AUM SRI GURAVE NAMAHA ! Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages advaitin/ advaitin Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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