pUrNamadah pUrNamidam.. gospel of Thomas .

[Guest guest]

benji, harsha , stigji and others ...

 

Jesus saw infants being suckled. He said to his disciples, "These

infants being suckled are like those who enter the kingdom."

 

They said to him, "Shall we then, as children, enter the kingdom?"

 

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the

inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the

above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one

and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and

when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of

a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a

likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

 

gospel of Thomas- nag hammadi library

 

could you kindly explain the finer nuances of the above passage

 

love and peace

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adiji.

 

The beginning reminds of Verse 5 of IsOpanishad which

Vidyavachaspathi Panoli translates as under:

 

"It moves; It moves not. It is far; It is near. It is within all; It

is without all".

 

That verse is a very good description of the vEdantic pUrNam.

Reading that meaning into the words of Jesus may be going a little

too far in typical Yogananda Paramahamsa manner! If Bh. Ramana has

done it with the Cross, why not we try our bit too!?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_________________________________

 

 

advaitin, "adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16>

wrote:

>

Jesus said ............"When you make the two one, and when you make

the inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the

> above like the below................

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adiji,

 

You asked about this excerpt from the Gospel of Thomas:

 

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make the

inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the

above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one

and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female; and

when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of

a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a

likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

 

 

I concur with Nairji ... there is an Advaitin or nondual theme here.

 

One thing that becomes abundantly clear when one has read a wide

selection of the 'mystical' literature of the world is that

enlightenment or realization is characterized above all by unity or

nonduality. One manifestation of this unity is love. But also, all

differences seem to cease ... somewhat magically from the point of

view of the ordinary intellectual mind which thrives on distinctions.

Everything seems to be one 'reality', which we may call

'consciousness' for lack of a better name. After all, we are surely

consciousness in our inmost nature, so if everything is that one

reality, then that reality must be consciousness.

 

Speaking of Christianity, I hope I don't offend if I say that I

presently believe that Christianity is an 'eternal myth' grafted onto

a historical wise person who may or may not have existed. There is

now a lot of discussion of the web of how 'savior gods who rose from

the dead' permeated the ancient Roman empire. See for example:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

 

It seems that such a religious idea was simply 'in the air'. There

may have been a wise and charismatic teacher in Israel named Jesus,

who may or may not have got himself into trouble with the

authorities. Anyhow, it seems to me that these myths of resurrection

got grafted onto him after his death. I don't doubt their efficacy

to those who are truly devoted. It is the devotion that matters, not

the 'reality' of the myth. This devotion serves as a catalyst for

consciousness, to focus the mind and heart and transcend to a higher

state. That is how I see it.

 

Therefore, it doesn't really matter how 'authentic' the Gospel of

Thomas is. One thing you will learn if you pursue this topic is how

many gospels were floating around the Roman world then. Who is to

say which were 'authentic'? In fact, those deemed today as authentic

were simply chosen as a political power play imposed by the Roman

emperor. What matters is whether a scripture contains a profound

truth that speaks to us in some way.

 

I guess you run into problems, though, if a false guru concocts some

scripture to lead people astray. Another thing you learn by perusing

the web is how many charismatic but degenerate gurus have managed to

con even rich followers out of their money. Somehow I would expect

that to get rich you must first have some brains (unless you inherit

it), but nevertheless some sorry souls give everything to sex and

drugs gurus. But if you want a good, safe, respectable place to

learn Advaita, you won't go wrong with the Chinmaya Mission!

 

Hari Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Benjamin <orion777ben> wrote:

>

> Namaste Adiji,

>

> You asked about this excerpt from the Gospel of Thomas:

>

> Jesus said to them, "When you make the two one, and when you make

the

> inside like the outside and the outside like the inside, and the

> above like the below, and when you make the male and the female one

> and the same, so that the male not be male nor the female female;

and

> when you fashion eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place

of

> a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, and a likeness in place of a

> likeness; then will you enter the kingdom."

>

>

> Speaking of Christianity, I hope I don't offend if I say that I

> presently believe that Christianity is an 'eternal myth' grafted

onto

> a historical wise person who may or may not have existed. There

is

 

Namaste Benji,

 

I'm presently writing a book on an Vedantic view of Jesus, and I'm

collecting stuff, here is some stuff.

http://www.geocities.com/aoclery/JESUSININDIA.htm

 

The website posted on there goes to stories from India. I'm not sure

all the stories about Jesus are true, but after a lifetime of

research I'm convinced he existed, was an Essene, studied in India,

and Tibet and died on the cross. Resurrected sure, he was a Raja

Yogi and had just achieved Moksha on the cross, what is impossible?

I agree later stories haver crept in from different traditions as

Christianity spread, but there is enough evidence in billions of

followers, Josephus, Pliny, Swami Abhedananda etc, not including the

Jewish Talmud. All point to his existance..........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Benjamin <orion777ben> wrote:

>

> Namaste Adiji,

>

> You asked about this excerpt from the Gospel of Thomas:

>>

> Speaking of Christianity, I hope I don't offend if I say that I

> presently believe that Christianity is an 'eternal myth' grafted

onto

> a historical wise person who may or may not have existed. . I

don't doubt their efficacy

> to those who are truly devoted. It is the devotion that matters,

not

> the 'reality' of the myth. This devotion serves as a catalyst for

> consciousness, to focus the mind and heart and transcend to a

higher

> state. That is how I see it.

>

>

> Hari Om!

> Benjamin

 

Namaste, Ben-ji

 

I would humbly submit that your above words of criticism on

Christianity are not in good taste. Kindly avoid criticising any

religion in such strong words. If only you happen to have any

contact with Sathya Sai Baba you would come to know that

Christianity is as true as Hinduism!

 

praNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste ProfVKji

 

 

I said:

 

"Speaking of Christianity, I hope I don't offend if I say that I

presently believe that Christianity is an 'eternal myth' grafted onto

a historical wise person who may or may not have existed. I don't

doubt their efficacy to those who are truly devoted. It is the

devotion that matters, not the 'reality' of the myth. This devotion

serves as a catalyst for consciousness, to focus the mind and heart

and transcend to a higher state. That is how I see it."

 

 

And you said:

 

"I would humbly submit that your above words of criticism on

Christianity are not in good taste. Kindly avoid criticizing any

religion in such strong words. If only you happen to have any contact

with Sathya Sai Baba you would come to know that Christianity is as

true as Hinduism!"

 

 

Uh oh! I'd better say something here.

 

I do appreciate your tolerant attitude, which is also mine. I meant

no disrespect to any religion. However, I do think that those who

are intelligent and mature enough to discuss Advaita are also capable

of considering different theories of the meaning of a religion. This

may actually lead to a deeper understanding of the true nature of

spirituality.

 

The link I gave before,

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

 

is an interesting discussion of DEEP similarities between the

Christian myth and other myths of the ancient Roman world.

Personally, I do not believe that such similarities could be

coincidental, and so I look for an explanation in terms of underlying

subconscious or spiritual processes of the mind, similar to those of

the famous psychologist, Carl Gustav Jung (not that I necessarily

agree with all of his theories).

 

After all, it has often been pointed out that there are striking

similarities between the stories of Jesus and of Krishna. This

fairly reliable website gives details that are at least worth

pondering:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr.htm

 

 

This does not invalidate such myths but rather reinterprets them from

a higher point of view. As I see it, these myths arise as the

expression of the human consciousness at a certain stage of its

spiritual development. For some group of people bound by a

collective karma, devotion to a resurrected savior god may fulfill

some deep spiritual need. I could go on at great length, but you get

the idea.

 

And the 'unreality' of Gods and myths from the standpoint of supreme

truth should be nothing new to Advaitins. For example, Ramana has

repeatedly mentioned how Ishwara only exists at the level of duality

and not at the level of Brahman. Does this make him an 'atheist'? I

don't think so.

 

Of course, you may level the charge of 'speculation' at all of this,

and it is indeed speculation. But I think that such a lofty view of

things helps to inculcate the detached perspective which is conducive

to Advaita. Taking our myths too seriously leads to

narrow-mindedness and intolerance. We need to view everything in the

phenomenal world as ultimately unreal, including the Gods.

 

So there was no 'poor taste' here, even if my speculations are only

an approximation to the truth. And I do agree that Hinduism and

Christianity are equally valid (or invalid from the Advaitic

perspective).

 

Hari Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

Namaste Benji.

 

Your thoughts are indeed interesting.

 

Our friend Shivramdasji (rechristened Ramlalji by Ammachi) holds the

same view and, some time ago, had promised to post his authentic

obervations on this topic. If he is anywhere around listening to all

this, I would request him to post a short gyst in his inimitable

style.

 

If Jesus is a myth, then the big question is who is there behind the

myth. He/She (or they)should be really great to have planted it so

effectively. Could it be some extra-terrestrial intelligence - the

von Daniken way?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________________

 

advaitin, Benjamin <orion777ben> wrote:

>

> Speaking of Christianity, I hope I don't offend if I say that I

> presently believe that Christianity is an 'eternal myth' grafted

onto

> a historical wise person who may or may not have existed. There is

> now a lot of discussion of the web of how 'savior gods who rose

from

> the dead' permeated the ancient Roman empire.