Theism and atheism

[Guest guest]

Hello everyone,

 

I am sorry, I had gotten busy with meetings in my workplace for a

while. I'm also travelling meanwhile. It may take me time to come

back to issues. I shall get back to the pUrNam issue very soon -

sorry moderators. I think I have left certain matters unsaid and it

may be dangerous to do so. Please forgive me for it. But now

something more spicey for you all....

 

I am posting a very non-sectarian post here for a common

understanding among all people who have faith in God - or atleast

claim to have so, or even those who have none. I hope that the

material is read completely before passing any comments, for

otherwise it is likely to cause lots of discomfort for readers. I

shall try to keep it short, but my point will not be made without the

explanations. I may require to write a sub-commentary on it too, if I

find serious dissent on the matter.

 

I find many a times a dislike among many theists for atheists. This

in my opinion is totally unwarranted. Very often such a dislike is

not reciprocated by the atheists, neither do they care to show any

love for the theists - I have seen examples of these among some of my

relatives. This is a very grave matter and can cause humankind to

become the victim of blind beleifs and notions, especially that

atheists are demons! I cannot say, what this may lead to, in the end.

 

IMHO, there is no difference at all between theists and atheists

except the fact that one denies the knowledge of a God and the other

asserts the existence of one even when he does not know Him/It. We

have all, as theists and hailing from such families formed a notion

about atheists as demons. But I donot think it is right. Sometimes

atheists could be better, just like some theists are decisively

better than the others. Many more murders have been committed in the

name of God than in the name of any country or woman!

 

The theist claims beleif in God and also proclaims that he who does

not beleive so, will go to hell. But the atheist though is ignorant -

note he is equally ignorant of the truth, even the theist under most

circumstances knows nothing about God - is atleast sincere - so says

Swami Vivekananda. Many theists kill others, lie, steal and do so

many things considered as sin, in their so called religion and still

say that they beleive in God. If they do beleive, then why don't they

stop killing or lying? This does not mean that atheists are great

people, either. They are also equally bad. They are also found

indulging in crimes, very often.

 

If one divides the world population in terms of theism and atheism,

we find the same percentage of people involving in crimes among both

theists and atheists - I am not privy to any satatistics to prove

this, but I can say so, atleast intuitively. The notion that atheists

can commit crime because there is nothing to punish them is all

wrong. "We donot refrain from crimes for fear of hell or something

like that. Neither does it mean that we can indulge in crimes for

there is really nothing to punish us. Atheists teach their children

the morals of soceity just as theists do, except that they don't say

it is because God will send you to hell.", says one proclaimed

atheists. (In this regard I would request you to learn about atheists

by googling it) What does this mean? Beleif in God does nothing to

alter the moral values of an individual. But still it is advocated in

most religions. Why?

 

As I pointed out the ones free of known crimes among both atheists

and theists, they are also equal in proportion to their respective

populations. Theists in many religions follow rules such as not

lying, or stealing or killing for fear of hell. While atheists do so,

partly because they feel it is the safest way to live in the soceity,

for otherwise, they would have a hell of a time if everyone does that

to them, and partly because they feel moral life is good - caring

nothing about going to heaven or hell.

 

My understanding is as such. For the rise of knowledge required for

liberation among the ones interested in the path of jnAna, nothing

depends on the beleif in any philosophy or religion or God or soul.

It is a pure quest to know the supreme truth in the most unbiased

manner, like a modern day scientist. This knowledge will rise when

the person takes his own efforts. So how does beleif ever help in the

process?

 

In the case of the people following Bhakti, however, the case is

different. The process demands a faith in God. This is done for two

things - 1. to imbibe in oneself the great qualities of the ideals we

regard as God 2. To imbibe in each one of us the akartA bhAva, the

feeling of non-doership by surrendering to the supreme Lord. But then

isn't love supposed to be without barriers. Is it only for that idol

of the deity? Isn't God in everyone?

 

So people who do beleive in God, should for their own sake not

develop any hatred or aversion for the atheists. This would simply

increase the dveSha part of our uncontrolled animal-like nature, that

we must learn to correct. When everything is God himself or God-

created, then why the hatred? Even atheists are God's own children

aren't they? The true devotee is the one who would see God in

everyone, theist or not, friend or foe.

 

Again for the ones on jnAna mArga, the atheists are also equally

ignorant and hence equally deserve love and compassion. They are also

equally in need of knowledge. Then why the bias in the views? In

fact, the one's on jnAna mArga also have developed a hatred for such

atheists is what surprises me most. The true pantha or the jnAna

mArga is one who forms no biases at all, and most of all, forms no

biases of God or anything else.

 

Theists or atheists does not matter at all. God views everyone

equally. What is God after all? Of course there is a difference in

opinions among many people about God being the same as the Self or

different from him, but then these opinions matter not even the

least. It is truth and love that really matters in the end. God is

verily truth and love. Let us all develop love for everyone, and love

for the truth. Whether atheists or theists, we are all at an equal

pedastal and need realization.

 

There are however some Saints, who have realized the truth. If you

ask Ramana Maharishi about God, he would reply saying - "Why look for

something other than your self? God is away from you, the Self is

closest to you." Again so have pointed out the other great saints.

Does that mean they are atheists?

 

Finally, let me summarize:

 

For the ones wanting to follow Bhakti, faith in God is surely

necessary. Even then, however, he should look upon everything, living

or non-living as a creation of God or God himself. But for the ones

on jnAna, such faith in God will do neither good not harm - there is

no proof that a beleif in God is what takes one to the truth in

jnAna. In any case, theist or atheist does not matter at all, and all

are really equal, in that sense. Therefore, the beleif that atheists

are demons is totally unwarranted. In the end, it is truth and love

that matter the most. Both are obtainable for the theist as well as

the atheist. Most of all, Dharma knows nothing of this, the law of

nature is the same for the theist as well as the atheist. It is more

appropriately for a human.

 

All this must however, not be contrued to think that one is encoraged

to become an atheist. When the beleif does not matter, how can the

non-beleif help?

 

Satyameva Jayate Naanrtam

[Guest guest]

Dear Balaji,

 

Very glad to see that you are back, and that too with a very important point.

 

First of all, may I say, both Theism and atheism, if on the basis of “beliefs”,

followers of both need to “know”. Beliefs are always subject to verification and

that is why many theists have their own notions, such as only our God can

deliver you, only our God can wash your sin, by torturing one’s own body by

himself one can please his God, by starving oneself on certain days, one can go

to Heaven, by killing those who do not believe in their God, they can reach

their God, etc. . . .the list is endless. All these notions spring only from

absence of “knowledge” of what exactly is God.

 

In Kerala there was a group, I do not know whether they are still there, called

Rationalists (Yuktivadies), who always used to say “what is the use in proving

that God exists” and at the same time, they lecture to disprove that there is no

God. What a pity! Why don’t they realize what is the use in proving that there

is no God also.

 

As for theists, what exactly they do? If at all they “believe” in God as

Sakalaguna Kalyana Sampanna, instead of trying to raise themselves to the level

of the God they believe in, they bring down God to their level. They even

dictate when their God should get up in the morning, what raga should be played

for wakeing their God up from sleep, how their God should have a bath, what

materials should be used for the bath, what their God should have for

breakfast, when their God should go for sleep, what raga should be played for

“putting” their God to sleep, etc. etc. They spend all their lives in repeating

these things, over and over again, all in the name of their God, at the same

time they also “believe” that their God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient.

They even perform marriages every year for their God. I beg apology if these

lines hurt anyone, but we never seem to think.

 

Neither God nor religion/nor even any philosophy is required for one to know

moral/ethic values. These values are built in our system, just like Dharma. The

whole problem, to my mind, is, most of the people do not appreciate the value of

these values. When it comes to others, I uphold these values and I expect

everyone to follow these values, but when it comes to me I do whatever is

convenient and comfortable to me. It seems I have a greater value for some other

thng. When I can manage a few rupees by stealing, I go for that, with total

disrespect to the universal ethics/values, but when the same stolen money is

robbed of me, I lament. Even a thief tryig to break the almirah, tells “say the

“truth”, where have you kept the keys”.

 

<<<< My understanding is as such. For the rise of knowledge required for

liberation among the ones interested in the path of jnAna, nothing depends on

the beleif in any philosophy or religion or God or soul. It is a pure quest to

know the supreme truth in the most unbiased manner, like a modern day scientist.

This knowledge will rise when the person takes his own efforts. So how does

beleif ever help in the

 

process? >>>>

 

I have always viewed “liberation” as getting myself from the hold of the shad

urmies (I seem to repeat this always), as my value system is totally controlled

by the shad urmies. Even Duryodhana said, “I know what Dharma is, but I cannot

help, as some other force impels to transgress Dharma. (Please do not ask me

where he said so, as I only heard it in some lecture).

 

 

 

<<< In the case of the people following Bhakti, however, the case is different.

The process demands a faith in God. This is done for two things - 1. to imbibe

in oneself the great qualities of the ideals we regard as God 2. To imbibe in

each one of us the akartA bhAva, the feeling of non-doership by surrendering to

the supreme Lord. But then isn't love supposed to be without barriers. Is it

only for that idol of the deity? Isn't God in everyone? >>>>

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but Bhakti, as followed by many, has nothing to do with imbibing

any qualities, let alone great values. In most cases, as I see, it is another

way for ego-appraisal.

 

 

 

<<<< So people who do beleive in God, should for their own sake not develop any

hatred or aversion for the atheists. This would simply increase the dveSha part

of our uncontrolled animal-like nature, that

 

we must learn to correct. When everything is God himself or God-created, then

why the hatred? Even atheists are God's own children aren't they? The true

devotee is the one who would see God in everyone, theist or not, friend or foe.

Again for the ones on jnAna mArga, the atheists are also equally fact, the one's

on jnAna mArga also have developed a hatred for such atheists is what surprises

me most. The true pantha or the jnAna mArga is one who forms no biases at all,

and most of all, forms no biases of God or anything else. >>>

 

The hatred is the result of the play of shad urmies. “knowledge of one’s self”

alone will help one to get freed from the clutches of the shad urmies. Belief in

God or any religion, not even Bhakti if it is not backed by “knowledge” will

help one.

 

JnAna marga has nothing to do with Theism and atheism, as both these “isms” are

belief based.

 

<<<<<. Most of all, Dharma knows nothing of this, the law of nature is the same

for the theist as well as the atheist. It is more appropriately for a human.

>>>>>

 

I fully agree with this view. Why human alone, even animals and plants have

built in them some Dharma.

 

No lion will kill a dear unless it is hungry. Whereas we, human beings, seem to

go on killing for amassing or for pleasure, though we know killing is not coming

from our real nature.

 

While talking about Dharma even a real villain in real life does not like a

villain getting away unpunished in a movie. Why?

 

Once again, the above lines are not meant to hurt anyone.

 

Hari Om & Warm Regards to all

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Balaji Ramasubramanian <balajiramasubramanian wrote:Hello everyone,

 

I am sorry, I had gotten busy with meetings in my workplace for a

w

 

 

 

 

Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

Dear Maniji

 

Mani Wrote:

 

As for theists, what exactly they do? If at all they "believe" in God

as

Sakalaguna Kalyana Sampanna, instead of trying to raise themselves to

the level

of the God they believe in, they bring down God to their level. They

even

dictate when their God should get up in the morning, what raga should

be played

for wakeing their God up from sleep, how their God should have a

bath, what

materials should be used for the bath, what their God should have for

breakfast, when their God should go for sleep, what raga should be

played for

"putting" their God to sleep, etc. etc. They spend all their lives in

repeating

these things, over and over again, all in the name of their God, at

the same

time they also "believe" that their God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent,

Omniscient.

They even perform marriages every year for their God. I beg apology

if these

lines hurt anyone, but we never seem to think.

 

 

The above said things can help one theist or atheist to have their

mind in a good condition, that is the use of rituals to have the

purity of mind, there is no harm in doing Abhishekam, Kalyanotsavam,

etc etc, If it is done with right knowledge, we cannot say that it

won't help to have realisation. But it should be done with right

knowldege then it can belp to purify our mind. Remember without a

form at least intially we cannot comprehend GOD Even other religions

needs to have a form to concentrate at least a Book to concentrate.

 

We are not taking GOD as the idol or book etc, this is merely a

symbolism, like the national Flag of a Nation which represents the

entire nation.

 

Simply thinking, book reading, and listening to lectures will not

help, the knowledge we should receive from the GURU. And should be

lived practically. Shravana Manana Nidhidyasana.

 

With Love & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

 

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Dear Balaji,

>

> Very glad to see that you are back, and that too with a very

important point.

>

> First of all, may I say, both Theism and atheism, if on the basis

of "beliefs", followers of both need to "know". Beliefs are always

subject to verification and that is why many theists have their own

notions, such as only our God can deliver you, only our God can wash

your sin, by torturing one's own body by himself one can please his

God, by starving oneself on certain days, one can go to Heaven, by

killing those who do not believe in their God, they can reach their

God, etc. . . .the list is endless. All these notions spring only

from absence of "knowledge" of what exactly is God.

>

> In Kerala there was a group, I do not know whether they are still

there, called Rationalists (Yuktivadies), who always used to

say "what is the use in proving that God exists" and at the same

time, they lecture to disprove that there is no God. What a pity! Why

don't they realize what is the use in proving that there is no God

also.

>

> As for theists, what exactly they do? If at all they "believe" in

God as Sakalaguna Kalyana Sampanna, instead of trying to raise

themselves to the level of the God they believe in, they bring down

God to their level. They even dictate when their God should get up in

the morning, what raga should be played for wakeing their God up from

sleep, how their God should have a bath, what materials should be

used for the bath, what their God should have for breakfast, when

their God should go for sleep, what raga should be played

for "putting" their God to sleep, etc. etc. They spend all their

lives in repeating these things, over and over again, all in the name

of their God, at the same time they also "believe" that their God is

Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient. They even perform marriages

every year for their God. I beg apology if these lines hurt anyone,

but we never seem to think.

>

> Neither God nor religion/nor even any philosophy is required for

one to know moral/ethic values. These values are built in our system,

just like Dharma. The whole problem, to my mind, is, most of the

people do not appreciate the value of these values. When it comes to

others, I uphold these values and I expect everyone to follow these

values, but when it comes to me I do whatever is convenient and

comfortable to me. It seems I have a greater value for some other

thng. When I can manage a few rupees by stealing, I go for that, with

total disrespect to the universal ethics/values, but when the same

stolen money is robbed of me, I lament. Even a thief tryig to break

the almirah, tells "say the "truth", where have you kept the keys".

>

> <<<< My understanding is as such. For the rise of knowledge

required for liberation among the ones interested in the path of

jnAna, nothing depends on the beleif in any philosophy or religion or

God or soul. It is a pure quest to know the supreme truth in the most

unbiased manner, like a modern day scientist. This knowledge will

rise when the person takes his own efforts. So how does beleif ever

help in the

>

> process? >>>>

>

> I have always viewed "liberation" as getting myself from the hold

of the shad urmies (I seem to repeat this always), as my value system

is totally controlled by the shad urmies. Even Duryodhana said, "I

know what Dharma is, but I cannot help, as some other force impels to

transgress Dharma. (Please do not ask me where he said so, as I only

heard it in some lecture).

>

>

>

> <<< In the case of the people following Bhakti, however, the case

is different. The process demands a faith in God. This is done for

two things - 1. to imbibe in oneself the great qualities of the

ideals we regard as God 2. To imbibe in each one of us the akartA

bhAva, the feeling of non-doership by surrendering to the supreme

Lord. But then isn't love supposed to be without barriers. Is it only

for that idol of the deity? Isn't God in everyone? >>>>

>

>

>

> I may be wrong, but Bhakti, as followed by many, has nothing to do

with imbibing any qualities, let alone great values. In most cases,

as I see, it is another way for ego-appraisal.

>

>

>

> <<<< So people who do beleive in God, should for their own sake not

develop any hatred or aversion for the atheists. This would simply

increase the dveSha part of our uncontrolled animal-like nature, that

>

> we must learn to correct. When everything is God himself or God-

created, then why the hatred? Even atheists are God's own children

aren't they? The true devotee is the one who would see God in

everyone, theist or not, friend or foe. Again for the ones on jnAna

mArga, the atheists are also equally fact, the one's on jnAna mArga

also have developed a hatred for such atheists is what surprises me

most. The true pantha or the jnAna mArga is one who forms no biases

at all, and most of all, forms no biases of God or anything else. >>>

>

> The hatred is the result of the play of shad urmies. "knowledge of

one's self" alone will help one to get freed from the clutches of the

shad urmies. Belief in God or any religion, not even Bhakti if it is

not backed by "knowledge" will help one.

>

> JnAna marga has nothing to do with Theism and atheism, as both

these "isms" are belief based.

>

> <<<<<. Most of all, Dharma knows nothing of this, the law of nature

is the same for the theist as well as the atheist. It is more

appropriately for a human. >>>>>

>

> I fully agree with this view. Why human alone, even animals and

plants have built in them some Dharma.

>

> No lion will kill a dear unless it is hungry. Whereas we, human

beings, seem to go on killing for amassing or for pleasure, though we

know killing is not coming from our real nature.

>

> While talking about Dharma even a real villain in real life does

not like a villain getting away unpunished in a movie. Why?

>

> Once again, the above lines are not meant to hurt anyone.

>

> Hari Om & Warm Regards to all

>

>

>

>

Balaji Ramasubramanian <balajiramasubramanian> wrote:Hello

everyone,

>

> I am sorry, I had gotten busy with meetings in my workplace for a

> w

>

>

>

>

> Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Prasadji, Namaste

You are absolutely right. Everything must be backed by right knowledge.Whatever

we do whether Bhakti, etc. all have their own places, and they can also, as you

say keepthe mind in "good condition". Keeping the mind in good conditiion is

something, and getting anthakarana shudhi is something. Even "satwa" mind is

conditioning and will be an obstacle for liberation. As the scriptures say, one

has to be "gunatheethaDharmatheeta". Liberation swallows everything both

"good" and "bad" and an enlightened person accepts them both.

 

Hari Om

 

 

Krishna Prasad <rkrishp99 wrote:

The above said things can help one theist or atheist to have their

mind in a good condition, that is the use of rituals to have the

 

 

 

 

Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Balaji,

Just a thought on what you had written:

>In any case, theist or atheist does not matter at all, and all

>are really equal, in that sense. Therefore, the beleif that atheists

>are demons is totally unwarranted.

 

I think an atheist has his own definition of God which he disbelieves.

So, all atheists are a subset of theists.

... Just a thought though!

 

~Jai Gurudev~

[Guest guest]

Namaste Soundrarajan-ji,

 

 

advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...>

wrote:

 

> I think an atheist has his own definition of God which he

> disbelieves. So, all atheists are a subset of theists.

> .. Just a thought though!

>

> ~Jai Gurudev~

 

 

A beautiful answer!

 

Regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

Dear all,

 

Even an Atheist says I do not believe in anything, Does he believe in

himself, that is enough If he believes in himself he is not an

atheist, because he still believes in something, the only thing is

that is only himself, his own self. knowingly or unknowingly, so

there is really no atheist!

 

With Love & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

> Namaste Soundrarajan-ji,

>

>

> advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...>

> wrote:

>

>

> > I think an atheist has his own definition of God which he

> > disbelieves. So, all atheists are a subset of theists.

> > .. Just a thought though!

> >

> > ~Jai Gurudev~

>

>

> A beautiful answer!

>

> Regards,

> Chittaranjan