Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Dear advaitins, I am not sure if this has been discussed earlier, if yes please let me know the related links. I have been thinking about this question since the past couple of weeks but could not get the answer, please help ~ If 'I am that' then why don't I know? ~Jai Gurudev~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > Dear advaitins, > I am not sure if this has been discussed earlier, if yes please let me know the related links. I have been thinking about this question since the past couple of weeks but could not get the answer, please help ~ > > If 'I am that' then why don't I know? > > ~Jai Gurudev~ Namaste, Rahul-ji. Here is an elementary answer. Why don't I know that I am divine in essence? That is because of the mind in us which has accumulated dirt not only in this life but in all previous lives. It is only in the ultimate dirtless crystalline purity of the mind that one can see God's reflection in oneself. As we attempt to purify our minds and remove all the accumulated dirt in it, we should simultaneously take care not to allow further dirt to gather. For this purpose, there is a powerful but difficult prescription. We are to do all our actions, secular or religious, private or official, personal or public, in such a way that no further Vâsanâs adhere to the mind. Act with detachment, say the scriptures, with no attachment to anything that comes and goes, without an iota of selfishness, without any hankering or desire for the fruits of actions. Such actions will not bind the doer. The strategy for such actions is dedication to the Almighty or to a noble cause. This is karma yoga. All these disciplines like karma yoga and bhakti yoga will lead us to the ultimate discovery – revelation -- of God in ourselves. No external agency can do this for us. We have to do it ourselves, for ourselves. Discover it as the One Invariant substratum that never changes while everything else keeps changing. Discover it as the calm of the deep sea unperturbed by the tumult and turmoil of the waves on the surface. Discover it as your own consciousness which is present as the only common factor in all the different stages of life and in all the states of awareness. Discover the Ultimate in yourself, for yourself, by yourself. This is a long process, but never give up. Allow Intuition and Mystic Experience to take you beyond your Reason and Intellect. God Bless you! If you want a more technical answer to your question, go to http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m4057.html If you want to know more about the logic of all this go to http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m4212.html PraNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 Namaste Soundrarajan-ji, advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > Dear advaitins, > I am not sure if this has been discussed earlier, if yes please let me know the related links. I have been thinking about this question since the past couple of weeks but could not get the answer, please help ~ > > If 'I am that' then why don't I know? > > ~Jai Gurudev~ I am That whose essence is Knowing. Therefore, I cannot not know. This "not knowing" is false because in thus not knowing, I know that "I know not". The "Knowing" is the I, and the "not knowing" is the object that I know. I am seduced by the object, and that is my not knowing. The second sutra of the Siva Sutra states "jnyanam bhanda" - which is a kind of funny statement, but that is the way it is. The "Why don't I know?" has no answer -- the question is self- referencing to itself; no answer can come from "outside". Regards, Chittaranjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2004 Report Share Posted May 2, 2004 rahulji writes... If 'I am that' then why don't I know? Because we are also 'this' LOL!!!! YOU HAVE RAISED A VERY THOUGHT PROVOKING QUESTION ! I hope members will respond with short, crisp answers - keep it short/sweeyt ! i suffer from attention defecit disorder and please use simple language avoiding heavy sanskrit terminology!! if using sanskrit words, please provide meanings! Thank you!! Meanwhile here is a kabir poem ... Are you looking for me? I am in the next seat. My shoulder is against yours. you will not find me in the stupas, not in Indian shrine rooms, nor in synagogues, nor in cathedrals: not in masses, nor kirtans, not in legs winding around your own neck, nor in eating nothing but vegetables. When you really look for me, you will see me instantly -- you will find me in the tiniest house of time. Kabir says: Student, tell me, what is God? He is the breath inside the breath. ********************************************************************** Musk is inside the deer ; it is wandering all around the forest looking for the musk!!! Breathe in love breathe out love !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Krishnamurthyji, >Why don't I know that I am divine in essence? That is because of the >mind in us which has accumulated dirt not only in this life but in >all previous lives. I don't know "I am that" because of the accumulated dirt in my mind. Why is there a tendancy to accumulate this dirt at the first place and what is the reason? The second link on the logic of your answer is brilliant. It would take time to sink in. Chittaranjanji, great lines ... >The "Why don't I know?" has no answer -- the question is self- >referencing to itself; no answer can come from "outside". I remember hearing this from a yogi -"The enquiry into a question is more important than the answer to the question". Maybe some questions exist only to challenge our intellect. Shakthiji, >He is the breath inside the breath. Nice thought to meditate on! ~Jai Gurudeva~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > > I don't know "I am that" because of the accumulated dirt in my mind. > Why is there a tendancy to accumulate this dirt at the first place > and what is the reason? > Namaste Rahulji, I feel this is a fundamental question. The simple answer is ignorance. Why did the accumulation of vaasana begin? It is like asking why did creation happen? For that is the moment from when karma began. I believe there is no answer in our scriptures. It is simply the will of the divine. It is impossible to say when or why ignorance began. I once asked my father when the first karma happened (and that's when the first vaasana was generated). He told me that karma is considered anaadi. So ignorance can also be said to be beginningless. The only thing we can say is that ignorance will be destroyed by knowledge. Ignorance is beginningless, but not ananta. Even in the vyavahaaric sense, I cannot say when my ignorance of a subject began, but that ignorance can be ended by learning the subject. Of course this a beginner's understanding. I am sure Professorji and others can explain this better. Harih Om! Neelakantan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Namaste Shri Neelkantan-ji, My understanding on the "nature" of ignorance... advaitin, "Neelakantan" <pneelaka@s...> wrote: > The only thing we can say is that ignorance will be destroyed > by knowledge. Knowledge is not an action and therefore there is no actual destruction of anything. Knowledge can only reveal truth, and in truth there is no ignorance. That is how knowledge "destroys" ignorance. > Ignorance is beginningless, but not ananta. Even in the > vyavahaaric sense, I cannot say when my ignorance of a > subject began, but that ignorance can be ended by learning > the subject. What is beginningless is also endless. Ignorance is beginningless because what isn't there has no beginning. It is endless because, in truth, there is nothing to be ended. It is all a "warp" of reality also called "knot of the heart". Regards, Chittaranjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Namaste Chittaranjanji, That does sound a lot clearer to me now. Thank you. Harih Om! Neelakantan advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik" <chittaranjan_naik> wrote: > Namaste Shri Neelkantan-ji, > > My understanding on the "nature" of ignorance... > > advaitin, "Neelakantan" <pneelaka@s...> wrote: > > > The only thing we can say is that ignorance will be destroyed > > by knowledge. > > Knowledge is not an action and therefore there is no actual > destruction of anything. Knowledge can only reveal truth, and in > truth there is no ignorance. That is how knowledge "destroys" > ignorance. > > > > Ignorance is beginningless, but not ananta. Even in the > > vyavahaaric sense, I cannot say when my ignorance of a > > subject began, but that ignorance can be ended by learning > > the subject. > > > What is beginningless is also endless. Ignorance is beginningless > because what isn't there has no beginning. It is endless because, in > truth, there is nothing to be ended. It is all a "warp" of reality > also called "knot of the heart". > > > Regards, > Chittaranjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > > Krishnamurthyji, > >Why don't I know that I am divine in essence? That is because of the > >mind in us which has accumulated dirt not only in this life but in > >all previous lives. > > I don't know "I am that" because of the accumulated dirt in my mind. > Why is there a tendancy to accumulate this dirt at the first place > and what is the reason? > Namaste, Rahul-ji, For this last question of yours read my two chapters on 'Live happily the Gita Way' from the following web pages: http://www.geocities.com/profvk/livehappily_1.html http://www.geocities.com/profvk/livehappily_2.html praNAms to all advaitins profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2004 Report Share Posted May 3, 2004 Dear Neelakantanji and Rahulji, Yes ignorance has no beginning. If ignorance had a beginning, before it began, what was there? Knowledge indeed. Where knowledge is there, how ignorance can come in? Where light is there, how darkness can enter? So, ignorance has no beginning, but it has an end. If ignorance is beginingless, it must be endless also. However, it does end. How is this “impossible” phenomena i.e. a beginingless has an end, possible? Ignorance itself is Mitya, as it does not have any independent existence. What is its locus or substratum? “I do not know” itself rests where? It rests in knowledge or awareness or consciousness. Anything, which depends on another thing for its existence, is apparent i.e. it appears to be there only. In the absolute realm, ignorance itself is not there. One of my Teachers used to say “you wash the baby with a lot of care and effort, and ultimately you not only throw away the washing water, but the baby itself.” There is no point in pondering how vasanas got accumulated, because vasana stem out from ignorance. For vasana kshayam, knowledge alone is the remedy. As for cultivating virtues, as a necessary prerequisite to self knowledge, if one finds easy to cultivate virtues, one can do so. However, even the necessity, or the knowledge that virtues must be cultivated, is itself one’s realization that evil/negative tendencies disturb his peace. When the captain of the winning team shakes hands with the captain of the losing team at the end of the game, though he feels happy in having won the game, but at deep in his heart he also feels a little hurt that the other team lost. This feeling is divine and in-built in us. Somehow, such “virtues” are not able to express themselves, as evil/negative tendencies cover them and because of ignorance we also seem to nurture them. Nitya anitya vastu vivekam, the first in the Sadhana chatushtayam, itself involves vivekam i.e. discrimination, a function of the intellect to discriminate between what is permanent and what is transitory. So goes my understanding on “ignorance” “vasanakshayam” etc. Respected members may correct me, please. Hari Om Neelakantan <pneelaka wrote:advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > > I don't know "I am that" because of the accumulated dirt in my mind. > Why is there a tendancy to accumulate this dirt at the first place > and what is the reason? > Namaste Rahulji, I feel this is a fundamental question. The simple answer is ignorance. Why did the accumulation of vaasana begin? It is like asking why did creation happen? For that is the moment from when karma began. I believe there is no answer in our scriptures. It is simply the will of the divine. Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Sponsor var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd./SIG=129o5lq2r/M=295196.4901138.6050264.3001176/D=groups/S=1\ 705075991:HM/EXP=1083680044/A=1874383/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=118tuuldn/*http://comp\ anion./?.cpdl=srch";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/_companion/302_v1_pdt_lrec_01.swf?c\ lickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd./SIG=129o5lq2r/M=295196.4901138.6050264.3001176/D=groups/S=1\ 705075991:HM/EXP=1083680044/A=1874383/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=118tuuldn/*http://com\ panion./?.cpdl=srch";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/ya/_companion/302_v1_pdt_lrec_01.gif";\ var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250; advaitin/ advaitin Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 Neelakantanji, >So ignorance can also be said to be beginningless. The only thing we >can say is that ignorance will be destroyed by knowledge. In the Yoga Vasishtha, Vasishtha says that just as all the figures and shapes already exist in a marble slab, there is an inherent non-recognition of the infinite existance in the jiva which is the 'I'ness. In the same lines may be a tendancy to accumulate vasanas is inherent in the jiva which we need to first become aware of and then chose a path to overcome its influence on our life. Krishnamurthyji, Thanks for the links. The lines that answered my question: >However, all of us are subject to our own prakRti in the sense that the vAsanAs that >constitute our prakRti forcibly draw us into channels without even our knowing it. >That this is so is accepted and declared by Krishna in clear terms. >Even the man of knowledge acts according to his own prakRti. All existences follow >their own prakRti. What shall coercing it avail? Chittaranjanji, >What is beginningless is also endless. Very good point. There is a confusion if we think that ignorance has a begining. But simply put, we could take from what Maniji has written: >Ignorance itself is Mitya, as it does not have any independent existence. I think Ignorance and Knowldege complement eachother. On a lighter side, all this knowledge seems to fascinate me so mcuch; it just goes to show the level of ignorance I am in ~Jai Gurudeva~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 4, 2004 Report Share Posted May 4, 2004 advaitin, Rahul Soundrarajan <sound@c...> wrote: > I think Ignorance and Knowldege complement eachother. > > On a lighter side, all this knowledge seems to fascinate me so mcuch; it just goes to show the level of ignorance I am in > > ~Jai Gurudeva~ Rahulji, Ignorance is bliss :-)) "dhanyaah kati tribhuvane paramopabhogyam samsaarameva parameshvari bhaavayantah| aabhaasa roopam avabodham imam sametya klishye kiyadkiyadaham tvamuna bhavena|| (Anandasaagarastavah 29 - by Nilakantha Dikshita) "O Parameshvari, how many fortunate ones are there who look upon this transmigratory existence as the highest enjoyment in all the three worlds!; but, having got a vague understanding (of the unreality of this worldly existence) how much I am suffering from this existence!" Seriously, recognition of the ignorance is the first step as Maniji pointed out. The process starts with that as the above stanza indicates. Harih Om! Neelakantan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 5, 2004 Report Share Posted May 5, 2004 Dear Rahulji, Namaste, It seems, in my opinion, what you wrote needs further understanding: <<<<I think Ignorance and Knowledge complement each other.>>>> Ignorance and Knowledge are opposites, i.e. like light and darkness, it is not like two sides of a coin. However, both floats in Consciousness. Still it appears that ignorance has covered Knowledge. How is it possible? How can darkness cover light? It is just impossible. It is most illogic to think and even a child will laugh if some one says light is covered by darkness. However, it is how it is so. The only explanation given in Sastra is it is Maya’s play. Maya has the power to make impossible possible. However, it cannot stand enquiry. It is also known as “mula avidya”. Like ignorance, it has no beginning. In my opinion, we should not worry too much how it has happened, i.e. how ignorance has covered knowledge. Our concern should be focused on removing the ignorance or avidya which has resulted in mithyajnanam, and I suffer because of this mithyajnanam. The Upanishads unfolds the swaroopa of Self and in that process the mithyajnanam vanishes and on knowing the real swaroopa of self and non-self, the seeker or sadhaka falsify the ego’s conclusions and along with it whatever is projected by it. In short, the same ignorant ego after self-knowledge continues to be there very much and engages in vyavahara, but as an enlightened ego. So goes my understanding. Warm regards and hari om Rahul Soundrarajan <sound wrote:Neelakantanji, >So ignorance can also be said to be beginningless. The only thing we >can say is that ignorance will be destroyed by knowledge. In the Yoga Vasishtha, Vasishtha says that just as all the figures and shapes already exist in a marble slab, there is an inherent non-recognition of the infinite existance in the jiva which is the 'I'ness. In the same lines may be a tendancy to accumulate vasanas is inherent in the jiva which we need to first become aware of and then chose a path to overcome its influence on our life. Krishnamurthyji, Thanks for the links. The lines that answered my question: >However, all of us are subject to our own prakRti in the sense that the vAsanAs that >constitute our prakRti forcibly draw us into channels without even our knowing it. >That this is so is accepted and declared by Krishna in clear terms. >Even the man of knowledge acts according to his own prakRti. All existences follow >their own prakRti. What shall coercing it avail? Chittaranjanji, >What is beginningless is also endless. Very good point. There is a confusion if we think that ignorance has a begining. But simply put, we could take from what Maniji has written: >Ignorance itself is Mitya, as it does not have any independent existence. I think Ignorance and Knowldege complement eachother. On a lighter side, all this knowledge seems to fascinate me so mcuch; it just goes to show the level of ignorance I am in ~Jai Gurudeva~ Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages advaitin/ advaitin Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 Maniji, >The only explanation given in Sastra is it is >Mayas play. Maya has the power to make impossible possible. However, it >cannot stand enquiry. It is also known as mula avidya. Like ignorance >, it has no beginning. >In my opinion, we should not worry too much how it has happened, i.e. how i >gnorance has covered knowledge. Well said, thanks for the explanation. ~Jai Gurudeva~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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