Faith, Doubt and Certainty

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adi-ji,

A more careful reading of my post will convince you that I am

not putting down faith or belief. Point out where you get that idea if that

is what you are on about and I will do my best to clarify.

Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael!

 

these lines in your post ...

 

"Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have a

role to play in faith? If your faith is tied to evidence are you in

danger of having it exploded if the evidence is revealed to be

dubious."

 

i am all ears!

 

thank you kindly!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

> Namaste Adi-ji,

> A more careful reading of my post will convince you

that I am

> not putting down faith or belief. Point out where you get that

idea if that

> is what you are on about and I will do my best to clarify.

> Best Wishes, Michael.

[Guest guest]

> I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith. The level of

certainty is the

> level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference, logic, etc. Faith

is another realm.

> 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have a role to

play in faith? If

> your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it exploded if

the evidence is

> revealed to be dubious.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

What kind of faith are you talking about?

Certainty is of the mind.

To me faith is of the heart.

Faith means that the heart is firm in where it is going,

even if the mind keeps asking, "Why?"

The affirmation of the importance of faith

is the affirmation of the importance of following

one's heart.

 

Bill

 

 

-

"ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva

<advaitin>

Friday, May 07, 2004 1:02 PM

Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

> Namaste All,

>

> God isn't dead, he just moved house.

>

> What happened in the 19th.C. to persuade Nietzche that God was dead? We had

the de-

> mythologisers, the rise of science, scientific scholarship and scrutiny of

the Old Testament.

> Certainty was knocked on the head. The Bible was seen for what it was, a

human document, and

> above all the theory of evolution ran counter to the story of origins. In

the style of

> Nietzsche I might say: Ye Brahmans smirk not for the same drama is coming to

a theatre near

> you.

>

> I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith. The level of

certainty is the

> level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference, logic, etc. Faith

is another realm.

> 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have a role to

play in faith? If

> your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it exploded if

the evidence is

> revealed to be dubious.

>

> One reaction to the scrutiny of science is to withdraw into the rebartivive

reaction of

> fundamentalism eg. It says right here in the Bible, Koran, Vedas, smrti. As

the psycho babble

> has it, this is a coping strategy that no culture or tradition is immune

from.

>

> The other strategy is to drop the whole thing, God is dead, long live mammon.

Or: eschew

> certainty, accept that your dialogue with the divine is a continually

unfolding one and that

> your subjective assurance moves through doubt and dryness or ananda deficit.

It's all good!

>

> Best Wishes, Michael.

>

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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> Links

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Michael,

 

One negative aspect of faith is that it binds the mind to a

particular idea. In one way it too leads to bondage which is opposed

to nirvANa. The only way to destroy doubts is by direct experience

and not by faith. For faith can sometimes be far from reality. And

faith is purely subjective. X believes that there is God and Y

believes that there is no God. The theist X is as much bound to the

notion of God as the atheist Y is to the notion of no God. A more

honest Z would simply say that he does not know whether or not there

is God. And a confused W would shift his beliefs with time. And a P

who has gone through all this may simply proclaim that he is not

interested in this issue at all.

 

May be a good strategy is to take the (non)position of P. Simply

proclaim that you are not interested in the question. A pragmatic

approach would be to find a practial way to escape from your (or my)

current predicament rather than speculate on questions which may not

have an answer.

[Guest guest]

kalyanji writes...

 

A pragmatic approach would be to find a practial way to escape from

your (or my) current predicament rather than speculate on questions

which may not have an answer.

 

did i hear a 'you'

 

did i hear a 'my'

 

 

there are no questions /no answers for who is the questioner and who

is the one who is answering the question ...

 

when

 

'SELF'

 

IS ALL THERE IS !

 

LOVE

 

LOVE

[Guest guest]

Namaste Michaelji and Kalyan

 

I think the debate arises because of the distinction between Faith

and Blind Faith.

The former involves use of discrimination, a rigorous examination of

one's ideals, a rending call for an answer and finding one from the

heart. Then what arrives is faith.

 

If it is the blind faith, it is a not so truthful conviction

developed for convenience and will collapse when discrimination,

rigorous examination and the call to the heart for answers are

applied.

 

You can never use these to undertstand whether A or B has faith or

blind faith ( A or B could be Bushji or Osamaji or even Arjuna or

Yudishtra ). I, even today run into people who question, whether

Arjuna, even after Gitopadesham, could have done his job as a warrior

unless it were for the vengeance factor.

I believe that we need to first use these tools on ourselves to

develop our own faith ( not blind faith) in our own ideals and then,

the rest will fall in place.

 

Many thousand namaskarams to all

 

Sridhar

 

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> Namaste Michael,

>

> One negative aspect of faith is that it binds the mind to a

> particular idea. In one way it too leads to bondage which is

opposed

[Guest guest]

a pragmatic approach would be to find a practial way to

escape from your (or my) current predicament

>>>>>>>>>

The seeking of safety is rooted in fear.

 

The significance of faith is that it represents a courage

deep within us to confront our fear.

 

Bill

 

-

Raghavendra N Kalyan

advaitin

Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:33 AM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

 

Namaste Michael,

 

One negative aspect of faith is that it binds the mind to a

particular idea. In one way it too leads to bondage which is opposed

to nirvANa. The only way to destroy doubts is by direct experience

and not by faith. For faith can sometimes be far from reality. And

faith is purely subjective. X believes that there is God and Y

believes that there is no God. The theist X is as much bound to the

notion of God as the atheist Y is to the notion of no God. A more

honest Z would simply say that he does not know whether or not there

is God. And a confused W would shift his beliefs with time. And a P

who has gone through all this may simply proclaim that he is not

interested in this issue at all.

 

May be a good strategy is to take the (non)position of P. Simply

proclaim that you are not interested in the question. A pragmatic

approach would be to find a practial way to escape from your (or my)

current predicament rather than speculate on questions which may not

have an answer.

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Adi-ji and Bill,

 

Bill you ask:

What kind of faith are you talking about?

Certainty is of the mind.

To me faith is of the heart.

Faith means that the heart is firm in where it is going,

even if the mind keeps asking, "Why?"

The affirmation of the importance of faith

is the affirmation of the importance of following

one's heart.

 

These are just my sentiments too, following a 'path with heart' is vital. The

parable of the seed

strikes home especially at this time of the year. Faith is a tender plant at

first and it needs

minding. Metaphoric fertiliser, compost, watering and weeding. There are even

the companion

plants which enhance each others growth and don't forget the marigold as a

protecting plant. They

are used in garlands in India (orange African marigolds). When I cut them and

crush the foliage

I am back in the flower hall of Bangalore City Market.

 

As you follow the path with heart signs are given to you which are not cooly

rationally logically

objective. Evidence for yourself is not public but it's more than enough to

be going on.

 

Best Wishes, Michael

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

I believe that this portion of a message which I posted on another

list may be of interest in this discussion. If nothing else, I took

the trouble to copy an interesting a paragraph from the Yoga Vasistha

.... starting with "There are those...".

 

I hope I don't give anyone heartburn with my mere OPINIONS....

 

Hari Om!

Benjamin

 

 

The one thing I would like to dwell on is the issue of scriptures and

their corresponding dogmas. I know that many Hindus and other

religious people believe that such scriptures and dogma are all

important, but they are not in my opinion. In so far as they have

any value at all, they are only records or manuals of higher states

of consciousness. These higher states of consciousness are the same

for all, though they may be filtered through the prism of dogma and

concepts. This is one of my fundamental beliefs, but I warmly respect

your views as well.

 

By the way, Hinduism has a strong current which thinks as I do on

this, namely, that different paths reflect the same truth in

accordance with the minds of the believers. In the Yoga Vasistha,

which I highly recommend, is a passage on p. 590 of Swami

Venkatesananda's translation, which I now quote. Notice that all

kinds of doctrines are held to be valid from different points of

view. The first reference is to atheism ('without an intelligent

creator'), then theism or Brahmanism or Vedanta ('universal doer'),

then dualistic religions such as Christianity which believe in heaven

and rituals, then Mahayana Buddhism which believes in sunya or

emptiness, etc. All these views are valid from the point of view of

those who believe them, since the Infinite Consciousness is like a

'pure crystal' that projects the world in accordance with these

views. The important thing, we are reminded, is not to get trapped

in mere philosophical discussions!

 

"There are those who assert that nature manifests itself naturally,

without an intelligent creator, for one sees that in nature there are

many undesired and unintelligent happenings (like natural calamities)

- such a view is reasonable. On the other hand, they who assert the

existence of the one universal doer of everything are also right;

their mind is saturated with this universal power. They who say that

this world exists as also 'the other world' are right, too. In their

eyes, pilgrimage, rituals, etc., are meaningful. The notion that

everything is void or sunya is right for it is the result of much

investigation. The infinite consciousness is like the purest

crystal: it reflects whatever notion it holds. The knowers of the

truth have realized that this infinite consciousness is neither a

void nor a non-void; it is omnipotent but not that which is seen or

known. Hence, whatever be one's conviction, if one adheres to that

conviction one surely reaches the same goal (attains the same fruit)

as long as he does not toy with these notions or realizations in a

childish manner."

 

However, a key difference between spiritual traditions is the one I

discussed before between dualistic and nondualistic. This important

difference exists *within* Hinduism (Advaita vs. Dvaita) as well as

within Buddhism (though the nondualistic view predominates in

Buddhism). This is much more important than the difference between

Advaita and nondualistic Buddhism.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sridhar,

 

> I think the debate arises because of the distinction between Faith

> and Blind Faith.

> The former involves use of discrimination, a rigorous examination

of

> one's ideals, a rending call for an answer and finding one from

the

> heart. Then what arrives is faith.

 

 

I may not agree with you here because I think that if you arrive at

something by proper enquiry, instead of being matter of faith it

becomes a matter of fact for you. I am also not sure if all

questions can have answers. May be the idea that we can find

definite answers can itself be a binding factor.

 

> I believe that we need to first use these tools on ourselves to

> develop our own faith ( not blind faith) in our own ideals and

then,

> the rest will fall in place.

 

 

There is one thing I honestly dont understand. What is the necessity

to develop faith in something? May be I am not able to see the

difference between faith and blind faith.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> Namaste Sridhar,

>

> There is one thing I honestly dont understand. What is the

necessity

> to develop faith in something? May be I am not able to see the

> difference between faith and blind faith.

 

Namaste Kalyanji,

 

This is an interesting question. When or why do we need faith? If

something has empirical evidence to support it, then it is indeed a

matter of fact. There is no need for faith. But when a thing sounds

logically consistent and reasonable, but has no empirical proof, I

think one needs faith. So a proper enquiry becomes the basis for this

faith. This is what I understand when our gurus stress the need for

shraddha.

 

Harih Om!

Neelakantan

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

> Did i hear you mention MIETZSCHE ?

>

> well, Nietrzsche is Dead!

>

> and the Bible ?

>

> THat is still there - all versions of it !!! smiles!!

 

 

Nietzsche may or may not be correct but many passages of the bible

have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The bible is

there because many people have faith in it, not because it is true. I

dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Kalyanji and all

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> Namaste Sridhar,

>

>

> > I think the debate arises because of the distinction between

Faith

> > and Blind Faith.

> > The former involves use of discrimination, a rigorous examination

> of

> > one's ideals, a rending call for an answer and finding one from

> the

> > heart. Then what arrives is faith.

>

>

> I may not agree with you here because I think that if you arrive at

> something by proper enquiry, instead of being matter of faith it

> becomes a matter of fact for you. I am also not sure if all

> questions can have answers. May be the idea that we can find

> definite answers can itself be a binding factor.

>

 

I am fine with ' that which arrives' being called a 'matter of fact'.

In the vyawaharika level, we, communities and nations have to act.

They act on the basis of certain values and convictions. Call it

action based on 'matter of fact' or ' faith' , the fact is that

dicrimination and deep search for the bases of these actions are

necessary. If the foundation is not strong where will be the edifice.

 

Yes, all questions do not have answers. Applying discrimination or

seeking inspiration from the heart could even tell us that certain

questions are not necessary and do not serve any purpose!

> > I believe that we need to first use these tools on ourselves to

> > develop our own faith ( not blind faith) in our own ideals and

> then,

> > the rest will fall in place.

>

>

> There is one thing I honestly dont understand. What is the

necessity

> to develop faith in something? May be I am not able to see the

> difference between faith and blind faith.

 

There is no necessity. But you will be,by nature, as part of the

evolutionary process,seeking happiness. Until realization/

enlightenment, along the way, you will need enquiry to remove yur

ignorance. What is the subject of this enquiry? We could find that

the subject is really some of our 'beliefs'/ faith in certain values

or concepts?.

 

For instance, being a part of satsangh like this is itself based on a

faith that it helps/ accelerates the process of evolution. Is it not?

 

Faith on any concept/ value/ phenomenon is also a spectrum with

value from 0percent to 100 percent. At 0 - it is blind faith. At 100,

as you say 'it becomes a matter of fact' or ' one simply knows and

actions issue out of such knowledge'

 

Many thousand namaskarams to all advaitins

Sridhar

[Guest guest]

Respected Advaitins ,

 

As you all know , i have a special corner in my heart for Gandhiji !

 

and Gandhiji said

 

"Prayer is not an old woman's idle amusement.

Properly understood and applied, it is the most potent instrument of

action."

 

And Guess what ! my mother believes in the power of Prayers.

 

and i have *implici* faith in my Mother !

 

and i have *Blind* Faith in the Great Mother of the Universe !!!

 

And if this appears as 'misplaced' faith to you all, so be it!! !

 

yaa devii sarvabhuuteshhu maatR^irupeNa sa.nsthitaH .

yaa devii sarvabhuuteshhu shaktirupeNa sa.nsthitaH .

yaa devii sarvabhuuteshhu shaantirupeNa sa.nsthitaH .

namastasyaiH namastasyaiH namastasyaiH namo namaH ..

 

O mother, who is present everywhere, who is embodiment of Universal

Mother,

O mother, who is present everywhere, who is embodiment of Power and

Energy,

O mother, who is present everywhere, who is embodiment of Peace,

I bow to thee, I bow to thee, I bow to thee.

 

Happy Mother's day !

[Guest guest]

> What is the necessity to develop faith in something?

 

Faith is simply the "knowing" of one's heart.

Therefore faith is not "developed".

 

Bill

 

-

Neelakantan

advaitin

Saturday, May 08, 2004 9:23 PM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

 

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> Namaste Sridhar,

>

> There is one thing I honestly dont understand. What is the

necessity

> to develop faith in something? May be I am not able to see the

> difference between faith and blind faith.

 

Namaste Kalyanji,

 

This is an interesting question. When or why do we need faith? If

something has empirical evidence to support it, then it is indeed a

matter of fact. There is no need for faith. But when a thing sounds

logically consistent and reasonable, but has no empirical proof, I

think one needs faith. So a proper enquiry becomes the basis for this

faith. This is what I understand when our gurus stress the need for

shraddha.

 

Harih Om!

Neelakantan

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

The bible is there because many people have faith in it.

>>>>>>>>>>

Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

one has faith in the Bible.

 

Bill

 

 

-

Raghavendra N Kalyan

advaitin

Saturday, May 08, 2004 10:33 PM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

 

Namaste,

> Did i hear you mention MIETZSCHE ?

>

> well, Nietrzsche is Dead!

>

> and the Bible ?

>

> THat is still there - all versions of it !!! smiles!!

 

 

Nietzsche may or may not be correct but many passages of the bible

have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The bible is

there because many people have faith in it, not because it is true. I

dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

> Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> one has faith in the Bible.

 

 

Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot change

meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written makes no

sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

[Guest guest]

all this time ,

 

We were debating about

 

Jagat

 

maya

 

BrahMAN

 

AND ALL IN BETWEEN !!

 

now we are debating whether FAITH AND BELIEF ARE SYNoNYMS ?

 

ok, even if they mean the same thing , what does that prove?

 

anyway, please Give me an English equivalent for "shradda"

 

The poison in the snake does not kill the snake ; only those it

bites.

 

a rope can be used to Hang oneself.

 

 

a rope was also used by Yaodha to tie up her Damodara .

 

" Devotion" is something that cannot be understood by the mind, only

by the heart!! ( billji, namy motherly hugs coming your way on this

mother's day)

 

and that too one with the heart of a 'child' !!!

 

Hari AUM!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> > Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> > As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> > one has faith in the Bible.

>

>

> Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot

change

> meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written makes

no

> sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

[Guest guest]

> Please present some better points if you have them.

My my. I was told this was a polite list!

> Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms?

I clearly said, "As I use the word...."

Nevertheless, I am not the only one.

I have said on this list that faith is of the heart.

I have heard some agreement on that.

Belief is certainly of the mind.

Therefore faith and belief are not the same

for more people on this list than me.

 

Actually, I consider that faith is not so important

as vulnerability of the heart.

 

The soft, gentle path of the open heart is the most direct.

 

Bill

 

-

Raghavendra N Kalyan

advaitin

Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:00 AM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

> Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> one has faith in the Bible.

 

 

Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot change

meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written makes no

sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

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[Guest guest]

Namaste all

The message below appears to be in a bad and intolerant taste and

definitely this forum can do without such messages emanating from

half-baked understanding and quarter baked 'faith'. From the thread I

am not sure who wrote this.

The person who wrote this should firstly understand his or her own

scriptures well before passing value judgments on other.

Many thousand namaskarams to all advaitins

Sridhar

> Nietzsche may or may not be correct but many passages of the bible

> have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The bible

is

> there because many people have faith in it, not because it is true.

I

> dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.

[Guest guest]

lol!!!

 

I like a person who calls me a 'nihilist' than a person who addresses

everyone " Prabhuji" and behind all that vaishnaVA humility so many

different "prabhujis" are hiding ! the strongest and the most

stubborn 'prabhuji" being the "ego" prabhuji!

 

do not worry, bill-ji,

 

THIS HAPPENS IN ALL THE LISTS ...

 

at least the moderators here are giving equal fredom to all!

 

just enjoy the show !!

 

we are all stronger than the 1000 rutting elephants in shri ramana's

story !!

 

smiles !!

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Bill Rishel" <plexus@a...> wrote:

> > Please present some better points if you have them.

> My my. I was told this was a polite list!

>

> > Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms?

> I clearly said, "As I use the word...."

> Nevertheless, I am not the only one.

> I have said on this list that faith is of the heart.

> I have heard some agreement on that.

> Belief is certainly of the mind.

> Therefore faith and belief are not the same

> for more people on this list than me.

>

> Actually, I consider that faith is not so important

> as vulnerability of the heart.

>

> The soft, gentle path of the open heart is the most direct.

>

> Bill

>

> -

> Raghavendra N Kalyan

> advaitin

> Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:00 AM

> Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

>

>

> > Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> > As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> > one has faith in the Bible.

>

>

> Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot

change

> meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written makes

no

> sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

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advaitin/messages

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>

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>

>

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Service.

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[Guest guest]

billji, namy motherly hugs coming your way on this

mother's day

 

and that too one with the heart of a 'child' !!!

>>>>>>>>

am delighted!

 

which means a burst of light, yes : )

 

and a burst of light to you as well

 

Bill

 

-

adi_shakthi16

advaitin

Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:49 AM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

 

all this time ,

 

We were debating about

 

Jagat

 

maya

 

BrahMAN

 

AND ALL IN BETWEEN !!

 

now we are debating whether FAITH AND BELIEF ARE SYNoNYMS ?

 

ok, even if they mean the same thing , what does that prove?

 

anyway, please Give me an English equivalent for "shradda"

 

The poison in the snake does not kill the snake ; only those it

bites.

 

a rope can be used to Hang oneself.

 

 

a rope was also used by Yaodha to tie up her Damodara .

 

" Devotion" is something that cannot be understood by the mind, only

by the heart!! ( billji, namy motherly hugs coming your way on this

mother's day)

 

and that too one with the heart of a 'child' !!!

 

Hari AUM!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan"

<kalyan7429> wrote:

> > Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> > As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> > one has faith in the Bible.

>

>

> Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot

change

> meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written makes

no

> sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

-oops!

 

i was just told 'off line' i was too strong !

 

well, if this makes bhaskar prabhuji come back, my mission would be

accomplished ...

 

it is kind of dull and boring without bhaskatji and balaji !

 

guess what, guys, let us 'cool' down and chill out!

 

it is a nice spring day ! let us go the Garden , enjoy the cool

breeze , smell the flowers and relax and bask in the sunshine of

Krishna's love !

 

I apologize if i hurt anyone's feelings ...

 

love

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-- In advaitin, "adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16>

wrote:

> lol!!!

>

> I like a person who calls me a 'nihilist' than a person who

addresses

> everyone " Prabhuji" and behind all that vaishnaVA humility so many

> different "prabhujis" are hiding ! the strongest and the most

> stubborn 'prabhuji" being the "ego" prabhuji!

>

> do not worry, bill-ji,

>

> THIS HAPPENS IN ALL THE LISTS ...

>

> at least the moderators here are giving equal fredom to all!

>

> just enjoy the show !!

>

> we are all stronger than the 1000 rutting elephants in shri

ramana's

> story !!

>

> smiles !!

advaitin, "Bill Rishel" <plexus@a...> wrote:

> > > Please present some better points if you have them.

> > My my. I was told this was a polite list!

> >

> > > Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms?

> > I clearly said, "As I use the word...."

> > Nevertheless, I am not the only one.

> > I have said on this list that faith is of the heart.

> > I have heard some agreement on that.

> > Belief is certainly of the mind.

> > Therefore faith and belief are not the same

> > for more people on this list than me.

> >

> > Actually, I consider that faith is not so important

> > as vulnerability of the heart.

> >

> > The soft, gentle path of the open heart is the most direct.

> >

> > Bill

> >

> > -

> > Raghavendra N Kalyan

> > advaitin

> > Sunday, May 09, 2004 9:00 AM

> > Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

> >

> >

> > > Many people have *belief* in the Bible.

> > > As I use the word "faith" it doesn't make sense to say that

> > > one has faith in the Bible.

> >

> >

> > Do you know that "belief" and "faith" are synonyms? You cannot

> change

> > meanings of words as you want and claim that what is written

makes

> no

> > sense. Please present some better points if you have them.

> >

> >

> >

> > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

> nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> > Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> > Messages Archived at:

> advaitin/messages

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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[Guest guest]

sridhrji!

 

You just commented on a post wriiten by a very valuable member of

this satsangha

 

you write ...

 

( The message below appears to be in a bad and intolerant taste and

definitely this forum can do without such messages emanating from

half-baked understanding and quarter baked 'faith'. From the thread

I am not sure who wrote this.

The person who wrote this should firstly understand his or her own

scriptures well before passing value judgments on other.

there because many people have faith in it, not because it is true.

I dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.)

 

KALYANJI WAS RESPONDING TO ADI_SHAKTHI'S POST !!

 

 

"Raghavendra N Kalyan" <kalyan7429>

Sun May 9, 2004 1:33 am

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty

 

 

(ADI WROTE)

 

Namaste,

> Did i hear you mention MIETZSCHE ?

>

> well, Nietrzsche is Dead!

>

> and the Bible ?

>

> THat is still there - all versions of it !!! smiles!!

 

(KALYANJI RESPONDED)

Nietzsche may or may not be correct but many passages of the bible

have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The bible is

there because many people have faith in it, not because it is true. I

dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.

 

**********************************************************************

Bottom line is we all are equally intolerant !

 

if we cannot even figure out who wrote something in a thread, that

shows how much 'tolernce' we have towards each other !!

 

i do not mind if you call me half-baked or quarter baked because

nothing affects someone who is burning in the fire of raga-anuragha

bhakthi! smiles!! but, you just offended kalyanji big time!!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sridhar,

 

 

Its OK. You can address me directly if you feel that my message is

intolerant, half baked or whatever. Please note that I wrote what I

sincerely believed to the best of my knowledge to be true. I dont

think the question of your scriptures or my scriptures is relevant

here.

 

Since you have called my understanding of faith as half baked, I

would be thankful to you if you can teach me the proper understanding.

 

 

Regards

Raghavendra

 

 

> Namaste all

> The message below appears to be in a bad and intolerant taste and

> definitely this forum can do without such messages emanating from

> half-baked understanding and quarter baked 'faith'. From the thread

I

> am not sure who wrote this.

> The person who wrote this should firstly understand his or her own

> scriptures well before passing value judgments on other.

> Many thousand namaskarams to all advaitins

> Sridhar

>

> > Nietzsche may or may not be correct but many passages of the

bible

> > have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The

bible

> is

> > there because many people have faith in it, not because it is

true.

> I

> > dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith.