Guest guest Posted May 9, 2004 Report Share Posted May 9, 2004 Many Pranams to all Advaitins Namaste Kalyanji My humble apologies for the uncalled for comments on your ( I did not know it was you kalyanji) understanding of 'faith' etc. Very obviously, i am hardly qualified to 'teach' anybody. Our moderators have very kindly given some guidelines in the previous message, so I hope to close this subject with my apologies for words that have caused hurt. My reaction was to the excerpt below- potentially explosive and distracting- it is that these are opinions one may harbour privately but may not be appropriate for discussion in satsangh. Anyways, it is not my call, I can only voice my humble opinion as one of the members ( though a less learned and less informed one) and hope that I will be forgiven if i am indeed mistaken. > have been proved to be factually incorrect beyond doubt. The > bible > > is > > > there because many people have faith in it, not because it is > true. > > I > > > dont see any good coming out of misplaced faith. Many Pranams to all advaitins Sridhar advaitin, "Raghavendra N Kalyan" <kalyan7429> wrote: > Namaste Sridhar, > > > Its OK. You can address me directly if you feel that my message is > intolerant, half baked or whatever. Please note that I wrote what I > sincerely believed to the best of my knowledge to be true. I dont > think the question of your scriptures or my scriptures is relevant > here. > > Since you have called my understanding of faith as half baked, I > would be thankful to you if you can teach me the proper understanding. > > > Regards > Raghavendra > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Much to comment on in this -- in my opinion -- luminous, lucid message. The comments on the distinction between belief and faith correspond, in my view, to the distinction that asserts that belief is of mind and faith is of the heart. Re: > We got into this discussion via the assertion that the hearing of shruti from a living teacher > was a necessary preamble to liberation i.e. not possible otherwise. That didn't sound right to > me and it seems that this is true for some good Hindus as well. Not only do you not need to > hear the shruti from a living master but you may not even need a living master. But you do > need faith - the inner view not the interview! I didn't know this, as I only joined recently. I heartily echo concurrence with this remark. Certainly one does not need a living master, though I have known people to whom this is a touchy point. > Shankara went to great lengths to demonstrate that Buddhism was not the same as Advaita. I know nothing of this. Clearly the form of teaching is distinct between Buddhism and Advaita. However, it seems to me, a realized buddhist and a jnani will understand each other perfectly well. May sweet peace alight within and shine without Bill - "ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva <advaitin> Monday, May 10, 2004 2:01 AM Faith, Doubt and Certainty > Hello All, > > I would suggest that a difference between faith and belief is that belief is often propositional > i.e. 'we hold these propositions to be self-evident'. Faith tends to be a more amorphous, > developing thing. It's a pervasive, permeating force. We can alter our beliefs without losing > our faith. For example few Christians believe that there was actually a Garden of Eden. It is > probably the case that there many people who while having great religious faith would not be > able to enumerate the articles of that faith i.e. its core beliefs. > > Scientists have faith in the general orderliness of the universe or that under the same > conditions the same things will happen. Religions can be tied to a core of beliefs which leave > you in or out. You can't be a pukka X unless you hold this or that. Diputes occur at boundries > and it might be well possible for two people to disagree about a belief and share the same > religious faith. > > Shankara went to great lengths to demonstrate that Buddhism was not the same as Advaita. > Clearly there were doubters who thought that you could jump down from the fence and land on > both sides. > > We got into this discussion via the assertion that the hearing of shruti from a living teacher > was a necessary preamble to liberation i.e. not possible otherwise. That didn't sound right to > me and it seems that this is true for some good Hindus as well. Not only do you not need to > hear the shruti from a living master but you may not even need a living master. But you do > need faith - the inner view not the interview! > > Best Wishes, Michael. > Put beautifully by Madathil-ji: > "I would, therefore, venture to say, with trepidation of course, that purity of mind (antahkaraNa > suddhi) is the deciding factor. With that purity, the Truth simply and inevitably dawns without > the need for mediation by external agencies, like the shine of a cloudless spring morn." > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 --- Bill Rishel <plexus wrote: > Much to comment on in this -- in my opinion -- > luminous, lucid message. > > The comments on the distinction between belief and > faith correspond, > in my view, to the distinction that asserts that > belief is of mind and faith > is of the heart. Namaste All, Unfortunately I have not been able to follow all this thread and I hope that the following is not just a repetition of what has gone before. The distinction between mind and heart is going to be an aspect of the June theme so it is quite fortuitous to have all my points made for me now. Thank you all of you. Coincidentally this topic was part of a presentation I gave to a small group in a Church on May 1st, the title: 'Self Consciousness: Certainty in a Changing World, a Fruit of Spiritual Experience.' Given the context I was not able to develop the advaitin theme lurking in the title although it was the substratum. I did try to open up a discussion on the unity of spiritual discrimination when heart/mind are centred and in harmony....as has been pointed to on this thread...but the vicar was getting snarled up in an intellectual understanding of 'certainty' and 'faith'. I won't say any more on that but post below a quote, that I gave the group that day, which is relevant to this thread and may be new to some, also I will add a little extra from the poet Rumi and a late Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math: ‘O son, every opinion is thirsting for certainty and emulously flapping its wings in quest thereof. When it attains to knowledge, then the wing becomes a foot, and its knowledge begins to scent certainty, For in the tested Way knowledge is inferior to certainty but above opinion. Know that knowledge is a seeker of certainty and certainty is a seeker of vision and intuition.’ Mathnavi III 4118-4121 ‘The sum (of the matter is this): When a man has attained to union, the go-between becomes worthless to him. Since you have reached the object of your search, O elegant one, the search for knowledge has now become evil. Since you have mounted to the roofs of heaven, it would be futile to seek a ladder. After (having attained to) felicity, the way (that leads) to felicity is worthless except for the sake of helping and teaching others. The shining mirror, which has been cleaned and perfect- it would be a folly to apply a burnisher to it. Seated happily beside the Sultan and in favour with him- it would be disgraceful to seek letter and messenger.’ Mathnavi III 1400-1405 To which we may add one modern advaitin view: ‘The scientists precondition to certainty is bound to tangibility, whereas the subject of certainty itself remains intangible….metaphysics begins where physics exhausts itself. The scientific world has acquired a vast body of empirical knowledge and reaches the principle of uncertainty only because it ignores the principles of metaphysical certainty.’ Shantanand Saraswati Best wishes Ken Knight Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./careermakeover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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