Faith, Doubt and Certainty-the seed of Bhakti or devotion !

May 7, 2004

Thank you bill!

This reminds me these verses from Holy Bible:

On that day Jesus going out of the house sat beside the sea;

and large crowds gathered about him,

so that embarking in a ship he sat,

and all the people stood on the beach.

And he spoke to them many things in parables,

saying, "Look, the sower went out to sow.

And in his sowing some fell along the way,

and the birds coming ate them up.

"But others fell on rocky ground

where they did not have much earth,

and immediately they sprang up

because of not having depth of earth;

and as the sun rose, they were scorched,

and because of not having roots they dried up.

"And others fell on the thorns,

and the thorns came up and choked them.

"And others fell on the beautiful earth and gave fruit,

one a hundred, the other sixty, the other thirty.

Whoever has ears let him hear."

And the disciples approaching said to him,

"Why do you speak to them in parables?"

And answering he said, "Because to you it has been given

to know the mysteries of the sovereignty of the heavens,

but it has not been given to those.

For whoever has, it will be given to the same

and one will have abundance;

but whoever has not, even what one has will be taken from one.

"For this reason I speak to them in parables,

because looking they do not see

and listening they do not hear nor understand.

And fulfilled in them is the prophetic saying of Isaiah:

In listening you will hear and not understand,

and watching you will look and not see.

For fattened is the heart of this people,

and they hardly heard with their ears,

and they closed their eyes;

lest they should see with their eyes

and hear with their ears

and understand with the heart and turn around,

and I would cure them.

"But blessed are your eyes because they see,

and your ears because they hear.

For amen, I tell you that many prophets and just people

desired to see what you see and did not see it,

and to hear what you hear and did not hear it.

Therefore you shall hear the parable of the sower.

"When anyone hears the word of the sovereignty

and does not understand,

the evil one comes and snatches away

what was sown in one's heart;

this is what is sown along the way.

"And what was sown on the rocky ground,

this is the one hearing the word

and immediately accepting it with joy;

but since one has no root in oneself it is temporary;

and when oppression or persecution occurs because of the word

they immediately are offended.

"And what was sown into the thorns,

this is the one hearing the word,

and the worry of the age and the deception of wealth

choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

"And what was sown on the beautiful earth,

this is the one hearing the word and understanding,

who indeed bears fruit and produces

the one a hundred, the other sixty, the other thirty."

Matthew 13:1-23

As a large crowd was gathering

and people of each town were coming to him,

he said through a parable:

"The sower went out to sow his seed.

And in his sowing some fell along the way

and were trampled under, and the birds of heaven ate them up.

"And others fell down on the rock,

and growing dried up because of not having moisture.

"And others fell in the middle of the thorns,

and growing together the thorns choked them.

"And others fell into the good earth

and growing produced fruit a hundredfold."

Saying these things he called out,

"Whoever has ears to hear let him hear."

And his disciples questioned him what this parable might be.

And he said, "To you it has been given

to know the mysteries of the sovereignty of God,

but to the rest it is in parables,

so that looking they may not see and hearing may not understand.

"This is the parable.

The seed is the word of God.

"The ones along the way are the ones hearing,

then the devil comes and takes the word from their heart,

lest believing they may be saved.

"And the ones on the rock, when they hear,

accept the word with joy;

yet these have no root, who believe for a time

and in time of trial fall away.

"And what falls into the thorns, these are the ones hearing,

and going by worries and wealth and pleasures of life

they are choked and do not mature.

"And what falls in the beautiful earth, these are the ones

who hearing the word in a beautiful and good heart

hold on to it and bear fruit with patience.

"No one having lit a lamp

hides it with furniture or puts it under a couch,

but one puts it on a lampstand,

so that those coming in may see the light.

For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest,

nor concealed that will not be known and come out into the open.

"Therefore watch how you listen;

for whoever has, it will be given to one;

and whoever has not,

even what one seems to have will be taken from one."

Luke 8:4-18

http://www.san.beck.org/GoodMessage/Jesus-Har-36.html#3

**********************************************************************

-- In advaitin, "Bill Rishel" <plexus@a...> wrote:

> > I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith.

The level of certainty is the

> > level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference,

logic, etc. Faith is another realm.

> > 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have

a role to play in faith? If

> > your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it

exploded if the evidence is

> > revealed to be dubious.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>

> What kind of faith are you talking about?

> Certainty is of the mind.

> To me faith is of the heart.

> Faith means that the heart is firm in where it is going,

> even if the mind keeps asking, "Why?"

> The affirmation of the importance of faith

> is the affirmation of the importance of following

> one's heart.

>

> Bill

>

> -

> "ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva@e...>

> <advaitin>

> Friday, May 07, 2004 1:02 PM

> Faith, Doubt and Certainty

>

> > Namaste All,

> >

> > God isn't dead, he just moved house.

> >

> > What happened in the 19th.C. to persuade Nietzche that God was

dead? We had the de-

> > mythologisers, the rise of science, scientific scholarship and

scrutiny of the Old Testament.

> > Certainty was knocked on the head. The Bible was seen for what

it was, a human document, and

> > above all the theory of evolution ran counter to the story of

origins. In the style of

> > Nietzsche I might say: Ye Brahmans smirk not for the same drama

is coming to a theatre near

> > you.

> >

> > I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith.

The level of certainty is the

> > level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference,

logic, etc. Faith is another realm.

> > 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have

a role to play in faith? If

> > your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it

exploded if the evidence is

> > revealed to be dubious.

> >

> > One reaction to the scrutiny of science is to withdraw into the

rebartivive reaction of

> > fundamentalism eg. It says right here in the Bible, Koran,

Vedas, smrti. As the psycho babble

> > has it, this is a coping strategy that no culture or tradition

is immune from.

> >

> > The other strategy is to drop the whole thing, God is dead, long

live mammon. Or: eschew

> > certainty, accept that your dialogue with the divine is a

continually unfolding one and that

> > your subjective assurance moves through doubt and dryness or

ananda deficit. It's all good!

> >

> > Best Wishes, Michael.

> >

> > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> > Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> > Messages Archived at:

advaitin/messages

> >

> > Links

> >

>

May 8, 2004

> This reminds me these verses from Holy Bible:

How very interesting.

Reading the verses I understand how they connect to what

I wrote. But it is as if my mind isn't what knows the connection.

It is as if in my message my heart sent a pulse out.

And in replying to my message your heart sent a pulse in reply.

And in reading your reply my heart "had ears to hear"

how your heart had ears to hear what my heart had said.

It is all of heart, woven through and through, round and round.

And for the first time I have read those so very well known

verses and understood them in this special way. Wow!

Bill

-

adi_shakthi16

advaitin

Friday, May 07, 2004 6:28 PM

Re: Faith, Doubt and Certainty-the seed of Bhakti or

devotion !

Thank you bill!

This reminds me these verses from Holy Bible:

On that day Jesus going out of the house sat beside the sea;

and large crowds gathered about him,

so that embarking in a ship he sat,

and all the people stood on the beach.

And he spoke to them many things in parables,

saying, "Look, the sower went out to sow.

And in his sowing some fell along the way,

and the birds coming ate them up.

"But others fell on rocky ground

where they did not have much earth,

and immediately they sprang up

because of not having depth of earth;

and as the sun rose, they were scorched,

and because of not having roots they dried up.

"And others fell on the thorns,

and the thorns came up and choked them.

"And others fell on the beautiful earth and gave fruit,

one a hundred, the other sixty, the other thirty.

Whoever has ears let him hear."

And the disciples approaching said to him,

"Why do you speak to them in parables?"

And answering he said, "Because to you it has been given

to know the mysteries of the sovereignty of the heavens,

but it has not been given to those.

For whoever has, it will be given to the same

and one will have abundance;

but whoever has not, even what one has will be taken from one.

"For this reason I speak to them in parables,

because looking they do not see

and listening they do not hear nor understand.

And fulfilled in them is the prophetic saying of Isaiah:

In listening you will hear and not understand,

and watching you will look and not see.

For fattened is the heart of this people,

and they hardly heard with their ears,

and they closed their eyes;

lest they should see with their eyes

and hear with their ears

and understand with the heart and turn around,

and I would cure them.

"But blessed are your eyes because they see,

and your ears because they hear.

For amen, I tell you that many prophets and just people

desired to see what you see and did not see it,

and to hear what you hear and did not hear it.

Therefore you shall hear the parable of the sower.

"When anyone hears the word of the sovereignty

and does not understand,

the evil one comes and snatches away

what was sown in one's heart;

this is what is sown along the way.

"And what was sown on the rocky ground,

this is the one hearing the word

and immediately accepting it with joy;

but since one has no root in oneself it is temporary;

and when oppression or persecution occurs because of the word

they immediately are offended.

"And what was sown into the thorns,

this is the one hearing the word,

and the worry of the age and the deception of wealth

choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

"And what was sown on the beautiful earth,

this is the one hearing the word and understanding,

who indeed bears fruit and produces

the one a hundred, the other sixty, the other thirty."

Matthew 13:1-23

As a large crowd was gathering

and people of each town were coming to him,

he said through a parable:

"The sower went out to sow his seed.

And in his sowing some fell along the way

and were trampled under, and the birds of heaven ate them up.

"And others fell down on the rock,

and growing dried up because of not having moisture.

"And others fell in the middle of the thorns,

and growing together the thorns choked them.

"And others fell into the good earth

and growing produced fruit a hundredfold."

Saying these things he called out,

"Whoever has ears to hear let him hear."

And his disciples questioned him what this parable might be.

And he said, "To you it has been given

to know the mysteries of the sovereignty of God,

but to the rest it is in parables,

so that looking they may not see and hearing may not understand.

"This is the parable.

The seed is the word of God.

"The ones along the way are the ones hearing,

then the devil comes and takes the word from their heart,

lest believing they may be saved.

"And the ones on the rock, when they hear,

accept the word with joy;

yet these have no root, who believe for a time

and in time of trial fall away.

"And what falls into the thorns, these are the ones hearing,

and going by worries and wealth and pleasures of life

they are choked and do not mature.

"And what falls in the beautiful earth, these are the ones

who hearing the word in a beautiful and good heart

hold on to it and bear fruit with patience.

"No one having lit a lamp

hides it with furniture or puts it under a couch,

but one puts it on a lampstand,

so that those coming in may see the light.

For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest,

nor concealed that will not be known and come out into the open.

"Therefore watch how you listen;

for whoever has, it will be given to one;

and whoever has not,

even what one seems to have will be taken from one."

Luke 8:4-18

http://www.san.beck.org/GoodMessage/Jesus-Har-36.html#3

**********************************************************************

-- In advaitin, "Bill Rishel" <plexus@a...> wrote:

> > I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith.

The level of certainty is the

> > level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference,

logic, etc. Faith is another realm.

> > 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have

a role to play in faith? If

> > your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it

exploded if the evidence is

> > revealed to be dubious.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>

> What kind of faith are you talking about?

> Certainty is of the mind.

> To me faith is of the heart.

> Faith means that the heart is firm in where it is going,

> even if the mind keeps asking, "Why?"

> The affirmation of the importance of faith

> is the affirmation of the importance of following

> one's heart.

>

> Bill

>

> -

> "ombhurbhuva" <ombhurbhuva@e...>

> <advaitin>

> Friday, May 07, 2004 1:02 PM

> Faith, Doubt and Certainty

>

> > Namaste All,

> >

> > God isn't dead, he just moved house.

> >

> > What happened in the 19th.C. to persuade Nietzche that God was

dead? We had the de-

> > mythologisers, the rise of science, scientific scholarship and

scrutiny of the Old Testament.

> > Certainty was knocked on the head. The Bible was seen for what

it was, a human document, and

> > above all the theory of evolution ran counter to the story of

origins. In the style of

> > Nietzsche I might say: Ye Brahmans smirk not for the same drama

is coming to a theatre near

> > you.

> >

> > I mentioned to Adima that certainty was not the same as faith.

The level of certainty is the

> > level of evidence and rationality - perception, inference,

logic, etc. Faith is another realm.

> > 'Love my uncertainty' says a teacher I know. Does evidence have

a role to play in faith? If

> > your faith is tied to evidence are you in danger of having it

exploded if the evidence is

> > revealed to be dubious.

> >

> > One reaction to the scrutiny of science is to withdraw into the

rebartivive reaction of

> > fundamentalism eg. It says right here in the Bible, Koran,

Vedas, smrti. As the psycho babble

> > has it, this is a coping strategy that no culture or tradition

is immune from.

> >

> > The other strategy is to drop the whole thing, God is dead, long

live mammon. Or: eschew

> > certainty, accept that your dialogue with the divine is a

continually unfolding one and that

> > your subjective assurance moves through doubt and dryness or

ananda deficit. It's all good!

> >

> > Best Wishes, Michael.

> >

> > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of

nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman.

> > Advaitin List Archives available at:

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> > Messages Archived at:

advaitin/messages

> >

> > Links

> >

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

--

advaitin/

b..

advaitin

c..

May 8, 2004

Beloved Bill writes...

It is as if in my message my heart sent a pulse out.

And in replying to my message your heart sent a pulse in reply.

And in reading your reply my heart "had ears to hear"

how your heart had ears to hear what my heart had said.

It is all of heart, woven through and through, round and round.

And for the first time I have read those so very well known

verses and understood them in this special way. Wow!

Yes, dear -heart!

It is all about Heart !! is not it?

The Sanskrit Word for Heart is

*Hridaya*

Hridaya ("heart") for instance is derived from three roots: hri ("to

bring"), da ("to receive"), and ya ("to go").

Thus the heart as "the place of giving and receiving" opens great

possibilities for metaphorical interpretation, depending on the

context.

and Bill, indeed, you have explained this beautifully!

and we all are familiar with this bibilical saying

"As you give so shall you receive" are profound statements about the

way our minds work.

This is the basis of the prayer of St. Francis, one of the most

beloved of Christian saints:

Grant that I may not so much seek

To be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive.

AND THIS GIVING IS NOT JUST LIMITED TO 'PHILANTROPHY" it extends to

even our relationship with others and most of all in our relationship

to God ( or our higher self)

Theres is another meaning for HRIDAYA- OR HEART

'Hri' plus 'daya' equals Hridaya, meaning that which is full

of "compassion "( means daya) is the Hridaya or heart.

That which has Love is the heart. Therefore, Love is the heart and

the heart is Love. Therefore, that heart is the very form of God. So,

God only is the form in the heart.

When you say " I love you" - either to your beloved or The beloved of

ALL ?( GOD/ESS) , YOU SAY " I LOVE YOU WITH ALL MY HEART" - you do

not say " i love you with all my mind" ! smiles!

Thus, bhakti or devotion or faith is always equated with 'heart' ...

WE worship Krishna with heart and soul say the Gopis !

They do not say " WE WORSHIP KRISHNA WITH OUR MIND"

when the Mind stops , only the faculty of 'thinking' stops

but

when the Heart stops , Eveything stops !

bill, it is my pleasure now to bring to you another Esoteric meaning

of 'Heart' from the teachings of Shri Ramana !

HRIDAYA:

hrid=center

ayam=this

Most people, yoga adherents as well, think of the heart as being on

the left side. When Mercedes De Acosta met with the Bhagavan Sri

Ramana Maharshi at his ashram the Maharshi placed his right hand in

the form of a fist on her right breast and said:

"Here lies the Heart, the Dynamic, Spiritual Heart. It is called

Hridaya and is located on the right side of the chest and is clearly

visible to the inner eye of an adept on the Spiritual Path. Through

meditation you can learn to find the Self in the cave of this Heart."

(see)

A staunch devotee of the Bhagavan sent a letter from England asking

for an explanation as to the term Hridaya and its significance. The

following is the gist of the reply written by T. K. Sundaresa Iyer

and approved by the Bhagavan:

"Just as there is a cosmic center from which the whole universe

arises and has its being and functions with the power or the

directing energy emanating therefrom, so also is there a center

within the frame of the physical body wherein we have our being. This

center in the human body is in no way different from the cosmic

center. It is this center in us that is called the Hridaya, the seat

of Pure Consciousness, realized as Existence, Knowledge and Bliss.

This is really what we call the seat of God in us.

"It is this Hridaya that is said to be different from the physical

heart, regulating the blood circulation. The Hridaya has its being on

the right side and is not commonly known or felt. The primary thought

in us arising as 'I,' when traced to its source, ends somewhere in us

and this place, where all thoughts die, where the ego has vanished,

is the Hridaya. From this center is felt and enjoyed the Pure

Consciousness.

"Hridaya described as 'the literal, actual, physical seat of the

intuition of the Self' has the meaning explained above. Perhaps the

words 'physical seat' may create some confusion. What it really means

is that there is a center of Pure Consciousness in the physical body.

It is related to the physical, but is not itself physical.

"The word Hridaya is a composite of hrid and ayam - "center, this".

It is the center on the right, which we reach as a result of

meditation (Samadhi). From the Hridaya, consciousness arises to the

sahasrara through the sushumna and from there spreads out to all the

parts of the body through the several 'nadis'. Then alone we become

conscious of the objects around us. Man, due to the illusion that

these have real existence, experiences suffering, as he strays far

away from his Self. The seat from where all these arise and manifest

is the Hridaya.

"Whether in sleep, joy, sorrow, fear or satisfaction, we return to

this heart and that is why we feel lost to all consciousness of

things around. If by meditation or Vichara we attain to our centre,

the Hridaya, and thus are our real Self, we enjoy unalloyed bliss.

"In the course of tracing ourselves back to our source, when all

thoughts have vanished, there arises a throb from the Hridaya on the

right, manifesting as 'Aham' 'Aham'. This is the sign that Pure

Consciousness is beginning to reveal itself. But that is not the end

in itself. Watch wherefrom this sphurana (throbbing) arises and wait

attentively and continually for the revelation of the Self. Then

comes the awareness, oneness of existence.

"When we steady our breath we feel the steadying of our thoughts.

Then the thoughts turn inward and melt away at a point. Watching this

point, where the thoughts vanish, will also help us to merge

ourselves in the Hridaya."

(GATHERED FROM VARIOUS SOURCES)

AND READ THIS

In the beginning the Divine Will arose,

This was the first seed from the Creator's mind

Those who can see deeper by putting their "mind and

heart" together as one

Found the underlying essence of all existence was deep

beyond all that exists,

Found the non-existent existing in the existent."

- RIG VEDA

fROM BHAKTI ( FAITH/DEVOTION) COMES MUKTHI (LIBERASTION)

LOVE

May 8, 2004

Thank you so much for your post and especially the references

to Ramana. Deep pulses of joy and light unfold with soft shining

just to hear his name.

>From my heart:

pulsing, vibrant life

this love

pulsing vibrant love

this light

oneness shines

beyond

within

this unfolding essence

shines in glory

evermore

Bill

-

adi_shakthi16

advaitin

Saturday, May 08, 2004 6:05 AM