pUrNamadah pUrNamidam Revisited (April 04 topic)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Maniji.

 

Shri Narendran has answered you as quoted below. Should you desire

to write to him, you can do so on narendran.

 

QUOTE

 

Excellent indeed is Maniji's viewpoint. Well what I meant by

remaining

attached to Truth is also the same. The Truth is that one is

Poorna.

But

even after knowing it, how many times does one get detached from it

and

hanker over worldly things and forget one's real Self. If

understanding

this and feeling grieved about is not the Gopika-viraha what else

is?

Is

this viraha-dukha (though an emotion and hence unreal) not a step

towards

Self realization? The VyrAgya as explained by Maniji is therefore a

natural by-product of this viraha. Having fallen in love with the

reality,

what is unreal loses its value. As a Gopika, one may engage oneself

in

worldly activities, but every moment that one forgets Krishna

(AtmaGnAna) is

an unbearable loss. Agreed that it is not the worldly activities to

be

blamed but one's own loss of memory of Truth. The yearning here is

for

ananyabhakthi (which includes vyrAgya). For those to whom the

ananyabhakthi

comes naturally, this may not be a problem, but I must confess that

by

my

own judgement I consider myself to be falling short of my definition

of

ananyabhakthi. Again, as I have already made clear, this is not a

complex issue.

Because I have faith in Krishna and I am sure He knows me. For all my

shortfalls He loves me as dearly as He does anyone else (including

Radha) and

it is

only for me to keep yearning for Him till the day of my reunion.

(Again, one

may say that there is no re-union as there has been no separation,

but

what

I mean by re-union is the cessation of apparent separation.)

 

I am sorry that I have to make this a short one.

 

My pranAms to you, Maniji and all the Bhakthas.

 

Regards

 

Narendran

 

UNQUOTE

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

__________________________

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

 

 

...............

IMHO, First of all, one cannot attach himself to the Truth. We have

to know that there is neither attachment nor detachment possible, as

we are Truth itself. Again, it is not required to get detached from

the world, because the attachment is just apparent. So, only apparent

detachment is possible. It is to know that the attachment is mithya,

or we have to falsify the attachment.

 

Again, IMHO, Advaita involves only falsifying the knowledge that

attachment/detachment is required etc., because any

attachment/detachment etc. are all notion oriented, or mithyagnana

janita, i.e. resulting from notions, and not from Knowledge, which

never changes.

 

IMHO, "tat chintanam, tat kadhanan, tat paraspara bodhanam" said Sri

Shankara Bhagavadpada, i.e., "Thinking of That, talking of that,

mutually understanding of That" always i.e. always bringing "Aham

Brahmasmi" as the background music while one engages in his mundane

activities, slowly but definitely, help. IMHO, learning to analyze

every thing we come across, every situation, we are in, with this

background music, is perhaps "Abhyasa" referred to by the Lord in His

Song.

 

What exactly is this Moksha? Is it getting freed from the cycle of

Births and Deaths?

 

I read somewhere. A contemporary of Melpathur Narayana Bhattathiri,

Poonthanam, who authored Gnana Pana, one of the Greatest Devotees

(there are no degrees in devotion, but I just use the word Greatest

only to emphasize) of Lord Sri Guruvayoorappan said "Oh Lord, I do

not want Moksha, if it means there is no Punarjanma (birth again) for

me. I want to take birth again and again, so that I can continue to

be a Bhakta of Thy".

 

May I ask most humbly, is Punarapi Janam and Punarapi Maranam is the

problem we are facing? I do not know how and why I came in this

planet. I do not know equally what will happen to me once I kick my

bucket. Having come here, there is a world, whether from the absolute

point, Real or Not real or Mithya, I have to encounter. Whether Self

Knowledge, that is the encountering I and the encountered world, both

are Mithya (having temporary appearances only), is there or not, this

encountering continues. However, the attitude of one's, i.e. the one

who encounters, encountering the world changes when he knows that he

and the Ultimate Reality are one and the same. Then everything

becomes a sport for him. As Swamiji used to say, there is a "growing

over" over everything. As young boys, we all used to play with

marbles. At that time when we get defeated in such plays, we could

not stand that. Now I am a grandfather, and sometimes when my

grandchildren ask me to join them in playing with the

marbles, I play and if I lose/win the game, what is my attitude? Do

I get emotionally upset? That is growing over, or emotional maturity.

Once the knowledge takes place, once this "growing over" takes place,

everything is just a play for me. Yes, I play various roles, but I

play them very well, when I know in reality I am neither a gainer nor

a loser, because the gain/loss pertain to the I that encounters, or

to the Role being played. I am always I am. Any gain or any loss does

not make me happy or sad. Why, because I am happiness itself. So,

Samsara is not a problem, as I play roles there. Samsara is in me but

I am not Samsara. Pardon me if I am "carrying coal to New Castle",

but when one's approach to one's life changes with this knowledge,

that itself is freedom from further falling into the earlier

approach, further taking birth with that earlier approach with the

notions that this world, this samsara, makes me unhappy, I am bound

by it, etc. If this knowledge is there with me,

what is the problem in taking birth again and again.

 

Now coming to Vairagya, is it shunning the objects? Is it not getting

freed from Raga i.e. running after objects for happiness. Creation

has a purpose and so all objects have various purposes. I can have

objects for fulfilling the purposes they are meant for. They are not

meant for making me happy, because I am already Poorna. I can have a

Luxury car to serve my purpose, but if I feel that my status is

enhanced by having this luxury car, it is just ignorance only. My

status, that the reality of myself, does not depend on the clothes I

wear, on my intellect, on my getting attached/detached, etc. My

Status is Trikala abadhidha Satyam, Poornam, and Anandam. The whole

problem is we are trying to improve upon our Status. Likes and

dislikes themselves are not a problem. When fulfillment of

likes/dislikes is for my happiness, it is a problem, as the

fulfillment of likes and dislikes cannot make me neither happy nor

unhappy.

 

Advaita Siddhanta is Knowledge of Self, the Pramana for which is the

Sacred Upanishads, and IMHO, it does not involve any action on my

part, and until it reflects through my wisdom and in my attitudes, I

have to continue Sravana, Manana and Nidhidhyasana.

 

Dear friends, please correct me as it is only "paraspara bodhanam",

and our Group is an excellent field for that.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Advaitins:

 

This is just to formally conclude the April 04 topic "pUrNamadah

pUrNamidam revisited".

 

Actually, I delayed this this long in the fond hope of delivering a

detailed conclusive post. However, in the circumstances I am now in,

I don't think I will be able to do that, much so against the hope

expressed by our dear Sunderji of receiving a detailed concluding

summary from me.

 

I am indeed very grateful to all those who shared with us their

profound and invaluable insights on the topic. I am not mentioning

names for fear of giving out a long list.

 

To recapitulate, although the discussion digressed into several posts

on mathematical infinity, thanks to the advice eminently rendered by

our elders, we got down to the essentials very soon.

 

The pertinent question heatedly debated was if this jagat (idam) is

actually pUrNam. While several members including me advocated that

the jagat is really pUrNam and Brahman (adah – THAT) misunderstood,

there was disagreement expressed by several other members that the

pUrNatwam of jagat mentioned in the verse is either conditional or

totally unsubstantiated. Those who advocated this view profusely

quoted from the shruti, other teachers and Sankara's own texts to

support their view point and emphatically concluded that the jagat

cannot be Brahman misunderstood and it has only transitory validity

like the snake on the rope. They also demanded to look at the

question from the AdyAropa apavAda and avastAtraya angles strictly

based on prastAnatraya and Sankara bhAshyAs.

 

As the initiator of the discussion, based on the interpretations of

the verse by traditionalists like Sw. Dayanandaji, whose analysis we

could fortunately include in our files sections, I remain fully

convinced that the verse really means what it says, i.e. pUrNamidam

or the world is indeed Fullness or Brahman. The reason for this

conviction is the understanding that the rope-snake analogy is not

given for us to decide the reality or unreality of the snake but to

arrive at the truth of the rope. In my humble opinion, the fact that

the rope is the snake (and, therefore, Brahman is the world) is the

point to be understood and emphasized. The other examples mentioned

in shruti like ocean and waves, clay and pots, gold and gold

ornaments, cotton and cloth, post on the ghost etc. all seem to

stress this point.

 

The opposing view brilliantly and forcefully concluded that the world

is anirvacanIya and therefore can be easily discounted to appreciate

the one and only unchanging reality that remains behind and sustains

this mAyA – the world born out of ignorance.

 

Well, at times, I myself had doubts if, in fact, both sides were

expressing the same truth. The difference of opinion seemed to be

another snake (error) on a basic point of agreement born out of the

mAyA of linguistic nuances! Such is the subtlety of the topic.

 

Despite the opposing views, it has really been a wonderful debate.

Although the heat of it all seemed to produce some unfortunate

strains in its course, I should say, the Members did have enough

thoughts and material to ponder and reach their own conclusions.

Isn't that a debate all for?

 

Once again, as the impartial initiator, may I say a big THANK YOU to

all participants and look forward to their fullest cooperation in the

discussions planned for the future?

 

May I also say that, although the topic is formally closed, there is

still room for Members to express their further comments to enrich

our understanding? PUrNamadah never ends. How can it when it is

endless and beginningless?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Namaste All - Have chosen All in preference to Advaitins -

after 'all' if I label the members as Advaitins then dualism starts

again as in advaitins vs non advaitins vs hesitant advaitins etc.) -

I must thank Madathilji and other members for some very energetic and

insightful unravelling of the hidden secret in this full/ Purna verse.

Since Madathilji very kindly left the door slightly open, I'll just

keyboard a thought.

I started by thinking Idam as me and Adha as all else out there.

The files section and the discussions turned it around into something

beautiful. Thus, all that is perceived, the world and my own ego etc.

become 'This' and the consciousness in which's precense all these

happen is 'That'. So what I initially thought was 'That' - the world,

my ego etc, - is actually This and vice-versa. Reminds me of a reply

from a Swamiji on my question on spiritual progress. He said that

when you travel from this end to that end,having got there, you'll

realize that 'that end' is actually this end. Even Ramana Maharshi,

when asked for a path to liberation used to say, where is the

question of path? This is like being in ramanashram and asking the

path to Ramanashram.

It feels so great to actually even get a drift of ' This is full and

that is too'.

 

Many thousand namaskarams to all

Sridhar

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> May I also say that, although the topic is formally closed, there

is

> still room for Members to express their further comments to enrich

> our understanding? PUrNamadah never ends. How can it when it is

> endless and beginningless?

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair