Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Namaste Sadaji, >it may be one of the insistence of Benjamin to >bring in idealism with Advaita and in the process >side tracked the discussion beyond the concept of time I did NOT introduce idealism into the discussion of space and time. I started the discussion by asking whether space and time were equally unreal. Then someone else brought idealism into the discussion in a message addressed to me, which I answered out of politeness, which in turn generated more discussion. I can track down the paper trail if you wish, since I keep a careful record of it. Anyhow, as usual, most of the confusion is over definition of terms, such as idealism. Properly understood, Advaita is as idealistic as the sky is blue. Also, nobody really answered my reason for saying that space is more of an illusion than time is, but that's OK... Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote: > Now I don't have any citations handy, but I've heard this said: > > As seen from the waking state: in the waking state, time is present and space is present. > In the dream state, however, time is present but space is not present. > > Time seems to be the harder one to "kick." Space is sublated first. > > --Greg > Namaste, Greg-ji I am not very sure that "In the dream state, time is present", as you have mentioned above. PraNAms to all advaitin s profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 --- Benjamin <orion777ben wrote: > I can track > down the paper trail if you wish, since I keep a careful record of it. > Benjamin - no need for that. Let the careful record speak for itself. Besides we need some scapegoat! > Also, nobody really answered my reason for saying that space is more > of an illusion than time is, but that's OK... It was not a question - but your statement or belief. There is no problem in having ones beliefs and no need to justify it either. In the creation as per Veda-s - space is the first in the sequence creation of pancha bhuta-s. Space exists - the existence part pervades the space - tasmaat aatmaana aakaaShaH sambhuutaH - from aatma, which is existence-consciousness, the space arose. Does the time exist - if you read my original post - I showed why it is imaginary - Time is not an absolute variable even in science? It can be only defined as a difference, requiring two sequential points in space. That requires a movement in space to eliminate the simultaneity. Hence one needs past-future to define the gap and present is only an imaginary line where past meets the future. There is no existence in the past or future. In present alone there is existence where there is no time. Hence time becomes an imaginary as the 'mental concept'. Time is defined as gap between two sequential experiences with experiencer beyond the time to record the two sequences. Experiencer is mind illuminated by consciousness. I can have a single thought which is a single experience. The second thought in sequence constitutes the second experience and hence the birth of the time as the third in sequence of creation. Hence the biblical statement - third day the Sun was created - sun standing for the time concept. Anyway - the hierarchy in illusion is another illusion! Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: > Namaste, Greg-ji > > I am not very sure that "In the dream state, time is present", as > you have mentioned above. > > PraNAms to all advaitin s > profvk > > Namaste - Here is my understanding - where there is a mind - there is a flow of thoughts. Thoughts are locused on objects. Hence both space and time are present in the dream, with its own reference points. Only in the deep sleep state both space -time are sublated since mind which is flow of thoughts is not there. Hari OM! Sadananda ===== What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2004 Report Share Posted June 1, 2004 Now I don't have any citations handy, but I've heard this said: As seen from the waking state: in the waking state, time is present and space is present. In the dream state, however, time is present but space is not present. Time seems to be the harder one to "kick." Space is sublated first. --Greg Namaste, At least in my dreams, space is very much present. I move about a lot in my dreams. Also I do not think space is more unreal than time - both belong to the same order of unreality - mithyA. Also if we posit different orders of unreality, then how many of them are there? Why only two - space and the rest of universe belonging to the one and time to the other? Just some common sense observations. pranAMs, Venkat - M Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 Hi Benjamin, You said: "Anyhow, as usual, most of the confusion is over definition of terms, such as idealism. Properly understood, Advaita is as idealistic as the sky is blue". I don't think you can claim this, strictly speaking. The mental realm (of ideas) is just as illusory ultimately as the world of objects. I refer you to this Note from the Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda: 1138. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE THREE STATES? (17) 1. The waking state represents diversity in all its nakedness. 'Realistic' (or materialistic) philosophy is based upon the apparent reality of this state. 2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of the one. The idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the relatively greater reality of the mind, as compared with sense objects. 3. The deep sleep state: Truth alone is absolute non-duality. Vedantins depend upon the experience of deep sleep to expound ultimate Truth, the real nature of Man. Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2004 Report Share Posted June 2, 2004 At 06:13 PM 6/2/2004 +0100, Dennis Waite wrote: >Hi Benjamin, > >You said: "Anyhow, as usual, most of the confusion is over definition of >terms, such as idealism. Properly understood, Advaita is as idealistic as >the sky is blue". I don't think you can claim this, strictly speaking. The >mental realm (of ideas) is just as illusory ultimately as the world of >objects. > >I refer you to this Note from the Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda: >2. The dream state (mental state) shows that it is all the manyness of the >one. The >idealistic philosophers base their philosophy upon the relatively greater >reality of >the mind, as compared with sense objects. ....Good find Dennis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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