June Topic: MAyA in the Vedas: Understanding the Hymns

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

The following continues what I hope is a slow

introduction for those with little previous reading of

the Vedas as well as providing some challenge for the

experts to take up.

 

Understanding the Hymns:

 

‘The Waters’ Son hath risen, and clothed in lightning

ascended up into the curled cloud’s bosom;

And bearing with them his supremest glory the Youthful

ones, gold-coloured, move around him.’ RV II.35.9

apaáM nápaad aá hy ásthaad upásthaM jihmaánaam uurdhvó

vidyútaM vásaanaH |

tásya jyéSTham mahimaánaM váhantiir híraNyavarNaaH

pári yanti yahviíH ||

 

 

The language of the Rgveda is mantra. It reveals its

truth in its own way rather than have our intellects

scramble away at meaning and imagery. By all means

though, let us proceed with such scrambling as it is a

better use of the intellect than idly dreaming about

some future personal fear or pleasure.

 

The above stanza and hymn contains imagery of myths

known to its original listeners while it also

describes the processes of the appearance of the ‘Many

out of the One’. It is to do with The Word, vAk. It

is to do with the appearance of inspiration or

intuition of truth which transcends and dissolves the

clouds of ignorance we have allowed to trap us in

delusion. More of this hymn will be posted in the

future.

 

In order to help us to appreciate the contexts of the

hymns we may take as a first step a consideration of

what may be termed the ‘inner and outer spaces’. The

‘outer space’ is that filled with the objects of name

and form that can be empirically studied and the

resultant knowledge shared and examined. The ‘inner

space’, the world of insight, imagination and thought

is less easily accessed because the individual

intentions and cultural background colour the

expression of any essential inspiration.

It is this ‘space’ we need to access in our efforts to

understand the hymns. We best serve the aim to hear

the ‘sound’ of the Vedas by allowing unnecessary

activity, the attachment to long-held concepts, to

fall back into stillness.

 

The RgVeda is the outpouring of religious experience,

in and through that inner space and its parallel in

the outer space; expressed through the imagery of its

traditional knowledge held in the chanted mantras and

enacted through ritual. This imagery, with its

mythical tales as a background, is known to the

speaker and audience of its time but inaccessible for

most of us today. However, once an essential insight

has been revealed the richness of the original imagery

can be studied and experienced afresh so that its

qualities can be valued in their own beauty, a few

rays of which may enlighten our own understanding

today.

The search for the centre of that ‘inner space’ leads

us to an enquiry into what we may term as the ‘heart

and mind’ of the individual whether in the Vedic or

our contemporary contexts. This search is clearly in

the philosophical teaching sections of the Vedas,

which are interspersed with the directions for ritual

practices. At the centre of these teachings is a

vision of the fluency of The Word emerging from the

Sun.

Frequently the imagery of waters and rivers is related

to the source of speech in our ‘centre of intuition’:

 

samyák sravanti saríto ná dhénaa antár hRdaá mánasaa

puuyámaanaaH ||

 

‘Together flow the rivers (of speech), like rivulets,

purified within by the heart/mind.’RV. IV.58.6

 

 

For both the first Rishis, the later poets and the

exegetes of the Upanishads, there was a greater

awareness, possibly shared by the non-literate peoples

of our present times, of a flow and connection between

our outer and inner worlds of experience than we have

in our literate, more individualistically self-aware

societies. This flow proceeds eternally in a greater,

limitless ocean or space; a ‘mysterious abyss’ to use

the Vedic image.

 

‘Some floods unite themselves and others join them;

the sounding rivers fill one common storehouse.

On every side the bright Floods have encompassed the

bright resplendent Offspring of the Waters.’ RV

II.35.3

Please use www.flaez.ch for the Sanskrit and Monier

Williams dictionary to try to get a better translation

of this verse suitable to your own understanding.

 

In the non-dual philosophy of the Vedas, this flow is

a continuum rather than an interaction between a

particle and its enclosing energy or power. We may use

as an illustration the classic image of the space

within the pot. There appears to be a separation by

the clay of the ‘within’ and ‘outside’ spaces but we

know also that there is space within the molecular

structure of the pot; the space is not contained.

And so when we read the hymns we need to be aware of

three ‘spaces’; the inner, the outer and the

all-pervading/embracing mysterious abyss in which all

are interconnected or rather inter-fluent.

Although we may name them as different spaces for the

purposes of conversation, we acknowledge at the same

time that such enumeration is relevant only in

dualistic thought. We need to understand and apply

this as we encounter the hymns and their imagery of

the Sun, Dawn, Oceans and Cows etc. When the poet

speaks of the Sun rising this is not a simple simile

or metaphor but a unity of experience, of a sun rising

in the outer space, of the inner sun rising in the

intuitive heart/mind and the unveiling of that Sun

that pervades and transcends all. It is through the

very sound of the mantra that this continuum is

realised. That is why we need to hear the mantras.

 

I will return later to the understanding of three

‘levels’ when I introduce Yaska.

 

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed,

breathed forth.’

 

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya>

wrote:

> Namaste All,

> The following continues what I hope is a slow

> introduction for those with little previous reading of

> the Vedas as well as providing some challenge for the

> experts to take up.

>> Frequently the imagery of waters and rivers is related

> to the source of speech in our `centre of intuition':

>

> samyák sravanti saríto ná dhénaa antár hRdaá mánasaa

> puuyámaanaaH ||

>

> `Together flow the rivers (of speech), like rivulets,

> purified within by the heart/mind.'RV. IV.58.6

>>

 

Namaste Ken-ji

 

What a pleasure to have you on this group! I didn't realise until

you started this RgVeda postings that there could be such an

enormous work on the RgVeda available on the web.

 

Well, please advise me. What is the quickest way to get at the RV

translations on the web? Your reference:

http://flaez.ch/rv/

is of course wonderful. For every word I click on the text it takes

me to synonyms, as well as other usages of the same word in RV

(Concordance). It is all marvellous! But still to get the total

meaning of a rik, is there a total translation available somewhere

else? Or am I still to use the same reference and wade further?

For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the 6th rik, I am

interested in the 3rd rik:

catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé shiirSé saptá

hástaasaH asya

trídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH mártyaan aá

vivesha.

 

This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda (which is the only

veda I have ever touched). So I would like to know the full meaning,

though I know the meanings of some of the words, the total purport

evades me.

 

Also another observation. The numbers that you quote for your RV

quotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I go to some

other website, the numbers do not match. Is there any correspondence-

matching?

 

In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most heartily. In fact

I would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if it is likely to

divert your audience -- though in beginning it, my opinion was that

it would be very light compared to the RV discussion, and probably

would meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.

 

PraNAms to all students of RgVeda.

profvk

[Guest guest]

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote:

> Well, please advise me. What is the quickest way to

> get at the RV

> translations on the web? Your reference:

> http://flaez.ch/rv/

> is of course wonderful. For every word I click on

> the text it takes

> me to synonyms, as well as other usages of the same

> word in RV

> (Concordance). It is all marvellous! But still to

> get the total

> meaning of a rik, is there a total translation

> available somewhere

> else? Or am I still to use the same reference and

> wade further?

 

Namaste Professor,

Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once such

a meaning is known there is no need to divide it up

into words for the purpose of getting at the meaning.

Except for the purposes of teaching.

However, we are here together trying to get at the

meanings of these mantras relevant to our present

state of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean that

disrespectfully but speak as I understand the

'authority' of the Vedas.

www.flaez.ch is the best site that I know of for the

Vedas. The Wilson and Griffith translations are useful

for a start but rarely do they penetrate to the heart

of the Rks. May I be bold enough to suggest that I

would like us to do this during this study. Later on I

hope we can do more close text study together.

Even if we can together, with common mind in one

common place, understand one Rk in such a way we will

have been truly blessed. If you look at some of the

other sites that I have suggested you will find some

single sUktas translated but they are rarely the ones

I want personally.

I know that there is one American academic who is

attempting to translate the ten books of the Rgveda.

We must wish her good luck for her next few lifetimes

and hope that the gods take pity on her.

> For instance, In RV IV.58 where you have quoted the

> 6th rik, I am

> interested in the 3rd rik:

> catvaári shR'Ñgaa tráyaH asya paádaaH dvé

> shiirSé saptá

> hástaasaH asya

> trídhaa baddháH vRSabháH roraviiti maháH deváH

> mártyaan aá

> vivesha.

>

> This same Rik also occurs in Krishna Yajur veda

> (which is the only

> veda I have ever touched). So I would like to know

> the full meaning,

> though I know the meanings of some of the words, the

> total purport

> evades me.

 

I do refer to this Rk later on in a future posting but

I will have a look later this evening and post

something.......we have a meditation group here at my

home and people have started to arrive, so apologies

for cutting this mail short.

>

> Also another observation. The numbers that you quote

> for your RV

> quotes, match only the "flaez.ch" reference. When I

> go to some

> other website, the numbers do not match. Is there

> any correspondence-

> matching?

 

This is a problem with the Griffith numbering and gave

me all sorts of problems when I first started looking

at this topic. Sunderji knows more of the reasons for

this problem. The flaez.ch numbering accords with

most books.

>

> In any case. I thank you and congratulate you most

> heartily. In fact

> I would like to stop my postings of Shata-shlokI, if

> it is likely to

> divert your audience -- though in beginning it, my

> opinion was that

> it would be very light compared to the RV

> discussion, and probably

> would meet the needs of some beginners on advaita.

 

I had a group study of Shata-shlokI last year and I

look forward to following it with you. There have

been many people joining this site recently who are

newish to advaita which is why I have been trying to

present this June topic carefully, step by step. I am

sure that people will find their way to that which

suits them best but I would hope that some can find

time for all the postings.

 

Om sri ram jai ram jai jai ram

 

Ken Knight

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

Namaste all,

Further to the last posting and before I post the next

of my pre-written sections, I thought that the

following would be of interest. It is a small part of

an essay 'Vedic Exegesis' published in 1937 by Shrimat

Anirvan.

It is a beautiful statement and accords with my own

understanding and what I am trying to present for you

in my own way. At the end he refers to an epilogue to

Yaska's Nirukta which is not included in my version of

Sarup's translation of the Nirukta. Therefore I cannot

confirm its accuracy and would welcome advice from

anyone who has found this epilogue in some version of

the nirukta.

 

'‘The problem of Vedic exegesis then is the problem of

reviving the spirit and re-creating the inner

experience of the atmosphere in which the mantras took

shape. Mere intellectual ingenuity and superficial

judgment will not help us, because here we are dealing

with things of the spirit where an interpretation can

hope to be true only when understanding has come

through spiritual communion and insight. We shall have

to take our stand on the two postulates of faith

advanced by the ritualists, taking them in a slightly

different form: instead of the eternality and the

non-personal origination of the Word, we shall have to

speak of the eternality and the non-personal character

of Truth. It may be debatable whether material history

is the expression of an original Idea; but it is an

indubitable fact that spiritual history is always so.

‘It is of the One Existence that yearning hearts speak

in diverse ways’, has said a Vedic seer Note from KK (

this is a rather individual interpretation of

RV.I.164.45) ; and this is true not only in an

abstract way, but in a concrete form also. Like the

mystic asvattha tree ‘with its root above and the

branches below’, the Vedic tradition, in a broad

sense, stands at the very source of almost all forms

of Indian spiritual cults. And the interpretation of

this tradition can be attempted with best results if

we do not place the Vedas on the isolated heights of

the past, but with a total vision of the present

retrace our steps to the roots discovering, with a

penetrating insight, the links at every step. But this

movement in breadth must be supplemented by a movement

in depth. One has to discover the master-idea that has

been behind this historical development. And here, it

is the Spirit that must question the Spirit in that

stillness of ‘the ocean where the womb of the Word

lies sunk in the depths of the Waters’ RV X.125.7

And, in this connection, nothing can be more

illuminating than the following remarks of Yãska in

his epilogue to the Nirukta: ‘Concerning the mantra.s,

none can claim to have perceived their truths if one

is not a seer and a spiritual energizer. . . When

seers passed beyond, men asked the gods, “Who are

going to be seers for us?” To them the gods gave

reason as the seer. And hence, whatever one speaks

with reason, following the track of the Word, becomes

as good as the utterance of a seer. . . . This

knowledge is a form of revealed and reasoned

illumination; its farthest end is to be realized by

spiritual energizing.’ Nirukta XIII.12,13.

 

Ken Knight

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

Professor V. Krishnamurthy wrote (June 2nd):

 

"...to get the total meaning of a rik, is there a total translation

available somewhere else?"

 

I've found the following URL useful:

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/#vedas or

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/

 

Ananda

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

The computer is still convalescing after the 'virus' attack,

but is still not out of breath yet!

 

These two sites are worth a visit:

 

http://www.vedah.com/org/index.asp

 

http://www.sanskritweb.de/rigveda/

 

 

The Sringeri Math has published a 6-vol. (sanskrit-English)

set, but not on-line.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

P.S.: As an aside, the technician who treated my computer said that

applications downloaded from advertisement-supported sites install

spy-ware and cookies, and are an increasing threat to the spread

of 'virus' attacks. Search tool-bars even may not be an exception!

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Ananda Wood <awood@v...> wrote:

> Professor V. Krishnamurthy wrote (June 2nd):

>

> "...to get the total meaning of a rik, is there a total translation

> available somewhere else?"

>

> I've found the following URL useful:

>

> http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/#vedas or

> http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/

>

> Ananda

[Guest guest]

Dear Respected Ken Ji:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Can there ever be a 'total' meaning of a Rk? Once such

a meaning is known there is no need to divide it up

into words for the purpose of getting at the meaning.

Except for the purposes of teaching.

However, we are here together trying to get at the

meanings of these mantras relevant to our present

state of ignorance. Of course, I do not mean that

disrespectfully but speak as I understand the

'authority' of the Vedas.

<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

"TRUE"

 

One can almost never have a "TOTAL" meaning of any R^icaa (sliced

with ten ways from Sunday). I believe this because each slice of

understanding is limited by the limits of the ability of the

interpreter himself. No matter who great scholastic that individual

may be. It is still that limit. You can never go beyond your own

mind, which in turn is limited by your own "buddhi" as sharpened by

your personal training.

 

That is why we have the concept of "brahma" as "expanding Universe"

(not just EXPANDED UNIVERSE). You can never-ever know it completely

because it has already expanded by the time you arrive there to know

it. Just a few pictures from Hubble Telescope gives hernia to the

enquiring minds!!

 

Just my 1 and 1/4 Cents of thoughts !!

 

With best regards,

 

 

Dr. Yadu