Guest guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 --- ymoharir <ymoharir wrote: > While trying to understand "R^ita and satya" which > has been partially > elaborated in various Advatin posts.............. > Any thoughts !!? Namaste Dr Yadu and others who pass this way, Here is this morning's study on Rtam/Satyam. I hope that it is relevant. I did do somthing using Panini's Dhattupatha but will hold it in storage. Whenever we are dealing with sruti such as the Rgveda we need to hold in mind the three levels of meaning occurring at the same time in the same sound. These may accord with the ‘inner space’, ‘outer space’ of the pot and the undivided space that they are each pervaded by. ( I will be using more traditional language for these three in a posting on YAska later this week). In the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam and satyam as words can come to be defined as ‘truth’ or ‘righteousness’ but there is a danger in such limitation so that confusion reigns. In the inner space, where division of ideas first occurs for the purposes of understanding, we can intuit different emphases of that single power which seems to sustain and direct what we call the universe. Starting with the traditional understanding that may be derived from the recent posts in this June topic: ‘Sat means what exists, being, and satya what is in accordance with sat, hence truth. But the action, at all levels, which takes place in accordance with truth and is thus also truth itself is Rta. Satya is knowledge of truth, Rta is action according to such knowledge.’ I think that definition works at all levels but please correct me if necessary. Can we please now put this into the context which we could construct from the recent ‘key word’ postings. And also seek guidance from the Rgveda. The singers of the hymns seek to internalise that power from which emanates the sounds and sights before them, to harness or focus it: ‘..straining after an inspired thought like a spirited, well-yoked horse.’ RV. III.38.1 This is the meaning of brahman in the Rgvedic hymns as an immense power realised in the human psyche and expressed through the Word of the mantra. The chanting and controlled preparation in the ritual produces an inner heat or tapas, that heat is the same as that original concentration of Tad Ekam as discussed in the nAsadIya sUktam: hymn of creation. It is no more nor less than the Self being drawn to Itself through Itself to use later terminology although I believe the concept is the same. This process stimulates the faculty of dhI within the human psyche so we may simplify the process into: inspiration, vision, action. RV. VIII. 35.16 bráhma jinvatam utá jinvataM dhíyo hatáM rákSaaMsi sédhatam ámiivaaH | sajóSasaa uSásaa suúryeNa ca sómaM sunvató ashvinaa || 'Give spirit to our prayer and animate our thoughts; slay ye the Raksasas and drive away disease. Accordant, of One mind with Surya and with Dawn, -the presser's Soma, Asvins drink.' In a later hymn it is clearly stated that this vision, dhI, is rooted in Rta, granted to us through the art of the ancestors of the rishis, the pitris. It is the latter who reached heaven through realising the light emerging through the Dawn. This allows the rishi to do the same and hence, because the event emanates out of Rta, enables the ‘the praising of eternal order (Truth) and results in correct thought (see verse 2 below). RV X 67.1,2 imaáM dhíyaM saptáshiirSNiim pitaá na Rtáprajaataam bRhatiím avindat | turiíyaM svij janayad vishvájanyo .ayaásya ukthám índraaya sháMsan || 'This holy hymn, sublime and sevenheaded, sprung from eternal Law, our sire discovered. Ayasya, friend of all men, hath engendered the fourth hymn as he sang his laud to Indra.' RtáM sháMsanta Rjú diídhyaanaa divás putraáso ásurasya viiraáH | vípram padám áÑgiraso dádhaanaa yajñásya dhaáma prathamám mananta || T'hinking aright, praising eternal Order, the sons of Dyaus the Asura, those heroes Angirases, holding the rank of sages, first honoured sacrifice's holy statute.' Right thought, rooted in truth, alone can bring forth the spiritual insight to flower and fruit in action. This then is the entry of Rta into the life of those seeking truth in thought and action aiming for the maximum ‘crop’ for the benefit of all. Rta is the cosmic order from which issues everything, all divine laws or statutes, which the gods must understand and obey, which humans need to reflect upon (contemplate) to manifest in truth-full action. That which allows such discriminated action is satyam. It is the light of the true sun. RV III.39 5-8 sákhaa ha yátra sákhibhir návagvair abhijñv aá sátvabhir gaá anugmán | satyáM tád índro dashábhir dáshagvaiH suúryaM viveda támasi kSiyántam|| índro mádhu sámbhRtam usríyaayaam padvád viveda shaphávan náme góH | gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNe dákSiNaavaan || jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaád abhiíkeimaá gíraH somapaaH somavRddha juSásvendra purutámasya kaaróH || jyótir yajñaáya ródasii ánu Syaad aaré syaama duritásya bhuúreH | bhuúri cid dhí tujató mártyasya supaaraáso vasavo barháNaavat || ‘Where as a Friend with friendly men, Navagvas, with heroes, on his knees he sought the cattle. There, verily with ten Dasagvas Indra found the Sun lying hidden in the darkness. 6 Indra found meath collected in the milch-cow, by foot and hoof, in the cow's place of pasture. That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he held in his right hand, the rich rewarder. 7 He took the light, discerning it from darkness: may we be far removed from all misfortune. These songs, O Soma-drinker, cheered by Soma, Indra, accept from thy most zealous poet. 8 Let there be light through both the worlds for worship: may we be far from most overwhelming evil. Great woe comes even from the hostile mortal, piled up; but good at rescue are the Vasus.’ Returning to the later collection of hymns in Mandala X. 111, 1,2: mániiSiNaH prá bharadhvam maniiSaáM yáthaa-yathaa matáyaH sánti nRNaám | índraM satyaír érayaamaa kRtébhiH sá hí viiró girvaNasyúr vídaanaH || ‘Bring forth your sacred song ye prudent singers, even as are the thoughts of human beings. Let us draw Indra with true deeds near us: he loves our songs, the Hero, and is potent.’ 2 Rtásya hí sádaso dhiitír ádyaut sáM gaarSTeyó vRSabhó góbhir aanaT | úd atiSThat taviSéNaa ráveNa mahaánti cit sáM vivyaacaa rájaaMsi || ‘The hymn shone brightly from the seat of worship: to the kine came the Bull, the Heifer's Offspring With mighty bellowing hath he arisen, and hath pervaded even the spacious regions.’ I hope that this little exploration is enough to get you replying with further insights of your own. Best wishes ken Knight ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Thank you Ken Ji: Now please allow me to add my 1 and 1/4th Cents of my take on the "R^ita and satya". I was precisely trying to lead you to the real purpose of using these two terms in the same sentence as a part covenant. Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda should be achieved through itihaasa (history) and puraana. itihAsapurANAbhyaM vedaM samupabR^imhayet | bibhyetyalpashrutaad vedo maamayaM prahariShyati || Meaning - One must use itihaasa and puraana for furthering their understanding veda (upabR^ihaNa). Here, Veda Vyasa calls (or rather classifies) a person who know veda but not the puraaNa as being "alpashruta". He further goes on to say that veda is afraid of them as if "they (veda)" are going to be attacked (incorrect intrepretation). satya by definition - kaala trayaa baaddhyam (true during all the three periods (past, present and future). Because truth is digital. it's value is either "1" or "0". There is no such thing as partial truth. Process of arriving at that truth can be analogue. Therefore it is fairly easy to comprehend the meaning of satya. There real problem starts when one tries to understand the expression R^ita. As Kenji pointed out is the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam and satyam as words can come to be defined as `truth' or `righteousness' but there is a danger in such limitation so that confusion reigns. In the inner space, where division of ideas first occurs for the purposes of understanding, we can intuit different emphases of that single power which seems to sustain and direct what we call the universe. Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed in the same sentence actually provides some additional leads to further our understanding of this expression. [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one perceives, which may or may not be the real. R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, which may or may not be necessarily true as far as the observer is concerned. Based on maayaa. On an individual basis all saadhana is an expedition of finding the truth for themselves. Thus, this journey rests on the shoulders of R^ita and satya. This satisfies various levels for this expression. In scientific terms R^ita and Stya can be well illustrated by weight and mass. Mass is always supposed to remain the same. However, it's weight can change depending on gravity. A 100 kg GOLD on the Earth will weigh approx 22 kg on the Moon, due to the low gradational pull. (The reason I used the example of Gold is because pure Gold will always maintain its chemical purity.) Here, Mass = satya and R^ita = Weight Thus individual saadhanaa begins on the foundation of observed truth (R^ita) and ends that chapter when the absolute "satys" is encountered. Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret these two terms together rather than separate in order to further our own understanding regardless on the subject matter and therefore must have become a part and parcel of the our rituals. I would like to learn more of your thoughts on this interpretation. Regards, Dr. Yadu advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote: > > > --- ymoharir <ymoharir> wrote: > > While trying to understand "R^ita and satya" which > > has been partially > > elaborated in various Advatin posts.............. > > Any thoughts !!? > > Namaste Dr Yadu and others who pass this way, > > Here is this morning's study on Rtam/Satyam. I hope > that it is relevant. I did do somthing using Panini's > Dhattupatha but will hold it in storage. > > Whenever we are dealing with sruti such as the Rgveda > we need to hold in mind the three levels of meaning > occurring at the same time in the same sound. These > may accord with the `inner space', `outer space' of > the pot and the undivided space that they are each > pervaded by. ( I will be using more traditional > language for these three in a posting on YAska later > this week). > In the outer, the world of seeming duality, Rtam and > satyam as words can come to be defined as `truth' or > `righteousness' but there is a danger in such > limitation so that confusion reigns. In the inner > space, where division of ideas first occurs for the > purposes of understanding, we can intuit different > emphases of that single power which seems to sustain > and direct what we call the universe. > > Starting with the traditional understanding that may > be derived from the recent posts in this June topic: > `Sat means what exists, being, and satya what is in > accordance with sat, hence truth. But the action, at > all levels, which takes place in accordance with truth > and is thus also truth itself is Rta. Satya is > knowledge of truth, Rta is action according to such > knowledge.' > I think that definition works at all levels but please > correct me if necessary. > > Can we please now put this into the context which we > could construct from the recent `key word' postings. > And also seek guidance from the Rgveda. > The singers of the hymns seek to internalise that > power from which emanates the sounds and sights before > them, to harness or focus it: > `..straining after an inspired thought like a > spirited, well-yoked horse.' RV. III.38.1 > This is the meaning of brahman in the Rgvedic hymns as > an immense power realised in the human psyche and > expressed through the Word of the mantra. The > chanting and controlled preparation in the ritual > produces an inner heat or tapas, that heat is the same > as that original concentration of Tad Ekam as > discussed in the nAsadIya sUktam: hymn of creation. It > is no more nor less than the Self being drawn to > Itself through Itself to use later terminology > although I believe the concept is the same. > > This process stimulates the faculty of dhI within the > human psyche so we may simplify the process into: > inspiration, vision, action. > RV. VIII. 35.16 > bráhma jinvatam utá jinvataM dhíyo hatáM rákSaaMsi > sédhatam ámiivaaH | > sajóSasaa uSásaa suúryeNa ca sómaM sunvató ashvinaa || > > 'Give spirit to our prayer and animate our thoughts; > slay ye the Raksasas and drive away disease. > Accordant, of One mind with Surya and with Dawn, -the > presser's Soma, Asvins drink.' > > In a later hymn it is clearly stated that this vision, > dhI, is rooted in Rta, granted to us through the art > of the ancestors of the rishis, the pitris. It is the > latter who reached heaven through realising the light > emerging through the Dawn. This allows the rishi to do > the same and hence, because the event emanates out of > Rta, enables the `the praising of eternal order > (Truth) and results in correct thought (see verse 2 > below). > > RV X 67.1,2 > imaáM dhíyaM saptáshiirSNiim pitaá na Rtáprajaataam > bRhatiím avindat | > turiíyaM svij janayad vishvájanyo .ayaásya ukthám > índraaya sháMsan || > > 'This holy hymn, sublime and sevenheaded, sprung from > eternal Law, our sire discovered. > Ayasya, friend of all men, hath engendered the fourth > hymn as he sang his laud to Indra.' > > RtáM sháMsanta Rjú diídhyaanaa divás putraáso > ásurasya viiraáH | > vípram padám áÑgiraso dádhaanaa yajñásya dhaáma > prathamám mananta || > > T'hinking aright, praising eternal Order, the sons of > Dyaus the Asura, those heroes > Angirases, holding the rank of sages, first honoured > sacrifice's holy statute.' > > Right thought, rooted in truth, alone can bring forth > the spiritual insight to flower and fruit in action. > This then is the entry of Rta into the life of those > seeking truth in thought and action aiming for the > maximum `crop' for the benefit of all. Rta is the > cosmic order from which issues everything, all divine > laws or statutes, which the gods must understand and > obey, which humans need to reflect upon (contemplate) > to manifest in truth-full action. That which allows > such discriminated action is satyam. It is the light > of the true sun. > > RV III.39 5-8 > sákhaa ha yátra sákhibhir návagvair abhijñv aá > sátvabhir gaá anugmán | > satyáM tád índro dashábhir dáshagvaiH suúryaM viveda > támasi kSiyántam|| > índro mádhu sámbhRtam usríyaayaam padvád viveda > shaphávan náme góH | > gúhaa hitáM gúhyaM guuLhám apsú háste dadhe dákSiNe > dákSiNaavaan || > jyótir vRNiita támaso vijaanánn aaré syaama duritaád > abhiíkeimaá gíraH somapaaH somavRddha juSásvendra > purutámasya kaaróH || > jyótir yajñaáya ródasii ánu Syaad aaré syaama > duritásya bhuúreH | > bhuúri cid dhí tujató mártyasya supaaraáso vasavo > barháNaavat || > > `Where as a Friend with friendly men, Navagvas, with > heroes, on his knees he sought the cattle. > There, verily with ten Dasagvas Indra found the Sun > lying hidden in the darkness. > 6 Indra found meath collected in the milch-cow, by > foot and hoof, in the cow's place of pasture. > That which lay secret, hidden in the waters, he held > in his right hand, the rich rewarder. > 7 He took the light, discerning it from darkness: may > we be far removed from all misfortune. > These songs, O Soma-drinker, cheered by Soma, Indra, > accept from thy most zealous poet. > 8 Let there be light through both the worlds for > worship: may we be far from most overwhelming evil. > Great woe comes even from the hostile mortal, piled > up; but good at rescue are the Vasus.' > > Returning to the later collection of hymns in Mandala > X. 111, 1,2: > > mániiSiNaH prá bharadhvam maniiSaáM yáthaa-yathaa > matáyaH sánti nRNaám | > índraM satyaír érayaamaa kRtébhiH sá hí viiró > girvaNasyúr vídaanaH || > > `Bring forth your sacred song ye prudent singers, even > as are the thoughts of human beings. > Let us draw Indra with true deeds near us: he loves > our songs, the Hero, and is potent.' > 2 Rtásya hí sádaso dhiitír ádyaut sáM gaarSTeyó > vRSabhó góbhir aanaT | > úd atiSThat taviSéNaa ráveNa mahaánti cit sáM > vivyaacaa rájaaMsi || > > `The hymn shone brightly from the seat of worship: to > the kine came the Bull, the Heifer's Offspring > With mighty bellowing hath he arisen, and hath > pervaded even the spacious regions.' > > I hope that this little exploration is enough to get > you replying with further insights of your own. > > Best wishes > > ken Knight ===== > `From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, > breathed forth.' > > ===== > `From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.' > > > > > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. > http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 --- ymoharir <ymoharir wrote: >> > Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda > should be achieved > through itihaasa (history) and puraana. Namaste, That is what I am trying to present in these postings but also to prepare the way for direct experience, the eureka moment, when the flash of lightning releases the cows from the cave. Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAra claims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The future Yaska posting is going to be important on this matter of interpretation. > Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed > in the same > sentence actually provides some additional leads to > further our > understanding of this expression. > > [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one > perceives, which may > or may not be the real. > > R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, > which may or may > not be necessarily true as far as the observer is > concerned. Based > on maayaa. Again can we please be careful here. I am trying to avoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage because it would be an error to bring the later interpretation of mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rta and satya. > > Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret > these two terms > together rather than separate in order to further > our own > understanding regardless on the subject matter and > therefore must > have become a part and parcel of the our rituals. Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these two words on so many occasions I should have followed their lead and presented them together in the original key-words list. Your postings have encouraged me to try to correct the original omission. I need people with the cultural background and experience to pick up these points and I thank you again, Ken Knight ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2004 Report Share Posted June 6, 2004 Dear KenJi: I really appreciate you taking on such a difficult task on embarking on the current topic. I just hope that people have patience with this extremely difficult subject matter. Understanding the key phrases and words hold the keys for understanding. Just like if one want to understand trigonometry, one need to have some understanding of geometry and algebra. One must graduate from one grade before trying to rush on the higher grade with partial and/or superficial understanding. We need instant gratification, even if that were possible, but believe me it will always lead to more questions of maaya. Actually I am all ears and anxious to learn more on this subject. More & more I read, learn; more & more I realize how little I have understood. Just my 1 and 1/4th Cents. Regards, Dr. Yadu advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote: > > --- ymoharir <ymoharir> wrote: > >> > > Mahabharata tells us that interpretation of Veda > > should be achieved > > through itihaasa (history) and puraana. > > Namaste, > That is what I am trying to present in these postings > but also to prepare the way for direct experience, the > eureka moment, when the flash of lightning releases > the cows from the cave. > Interpretation has temporary value, when the ahaMkAra > claims it then adhyasa and avidya reign. The future > Yaska posting is going to be important on this matter > of interpretation. > > > Now understanding why R^ita and Satya are expressed > > in the same > > sentence actually provides some additional leads to > > further our > > understanding of this expression. > > > > [R^ta] - One can only act or react to what one > > perceives, which may > > or may not be the real. > > > > R^ita then becomes the observed (out worldly) truth, > > which may or may > > not be necessarily true as far as the observer is > > concerned. Based > > on maayaa. > > > Again can we please be careful here. I am trying to > avoid the use of the word mAyA at this stage because > it would be an error to bring the later interpretation > of mAyA into a discussion of Vedic terms such as Rta > and satya. > > > > Therefore , I think it is important to intrepret > > these two terms > > together rather than separate in order to further > > our own > > understanding regardless on the subject matter and > > therefore must > > have become a part and parcel of the our rituals. > > Yes indeed. As the Vedas themselves combine these two > words on so many occasions I should have followed > their lead and presented them together in the original > key-words list. Your postings have encouraged me to > try to correct the original omission. > > I need people with the cultural background and > experience to pick up these points and I thank you > again, > > Ken Knight > > > ===== > `From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.' > > > > > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger. > http://messenger./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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