June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

[Guest guest]

Namaste all,

In order to take the step into understanding mAyA in

the Rgveda saMhitA then this posting is a key one.

 

Ken Knight

 

That One and the Many

 

I begin by quoting again: ‘All gods of one accord,

with one intention, move unobstructed to a single

purpose’ for it demonstrates that although a diversity

of names had been given to the various powers in the

physical environment, there was also a clear

understanding of a unity behind and communion of

purpose in this diversity. This unity is clearly

stated in the following

índram mitráM váruNam agním aahur átho divyáH sá

suparNó garútmaan |

ékaM sád vípraa bahudhaá vadanty agníM yamám

maataríshvaanam aahuH ||

 

‘They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is

heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

To what is One, sages give many a title they call it

Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.’ RV I.164.46

 

So the seers speculated as to the source of these

multivarious sounds (names) and powers manifesting in

their environment. But they were not so concerned with

reaching the ‘silence and stillness’ that may exist

beyond the sounds. They speak of ninyA vacAMsi, ‘the

words rising from the depths’, but there is no use (

as far as I know at the moment ) of such words as

‘mauna’ or ‘mouna’ which is that silence which is

later regarded as being the truth of Brahman, or that

silence discovered by the ‘knower of Brahman’ while in

union in stillness.

 

( Bit extra: There is a word that is used in the

Rgveda for stillness and silence, nisvara, literally

meaning ‘no sound’. This is also a name for Agni.

However it is not placed as the pinnacle of spiritual

experience. Nisvara is used on two occasions, both

being in pleas for help in dissolving demonic

opponents seen to be the cause of problems. We may

empathise with the poet when we are faced with a

toothache or unwanted, persistent thoughts and willing

them to quieten down, or in my case, chitchat when

socialising:

 

vishvA agne.apa dahArAtIryebhistapobhiradaho jarUtham

|

pra nisvaraM cAtayasvAmIvAm ||

‘Burn up all malice with those flames, O Agni,

wherewith of old thou burntest up Jarutha,

And drive away in silence pain and sickness.’ RV.

VII.1.7

tápurvadhebhir ajárebhir atríNo ní párshaane vidhyataM

yántu nisvarám ||

‘(Send) Eternal, scorching darts; plunge the voracious

ones within the depth, and let them sink without a

sound.’ RV VII.104.5

There is a suggestion that this might be a request for

help in overcoming an opponent in a forum for the

poets to display their skills in debate or

philosophical discourse such as that between Mandana

and Shankara.)

 

The substratum that is all-pervading was titled ‘That

One’, tad ekam, and it ‘existed’ through its own

power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is

unique in its self-witnessing power.

 

ná mRtyúr aasiid amR'taM ná tárhi ná raátryaa áhna

aasiit praketáH |

aániid avaatáM svadháyaa tád ékaM tásmaad dhaanyán ná

paráH kíM canaása ||

 

‘Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no

sign was there, the day's and night's divider.

That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature:

apart from it was nothing whatsoever.’ RV. X.129.2

 

This is the nAsadIya: hymn of creation that has

already been quoted in previous postings. As one of

the most beautiful poems in our history it deserves an

extended study on its own but I will briefly dip into

it here.

'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the power

of speech to explain, kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat:

 

kó addhaá veda ká ihá prá vocat kúta aájaataa kúta

iyáM vísRSTiH |

arvaág devaá asyá visárjanenaáthaa kó veda yáta

aababhuúva ||

 

‘Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence

it was born and whence comes this creation?

The gods are later than this world's production. Who

knows then whence it first came into being?’ RV X.129.

6

 

The devAH are here said to have appeared after the

universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah,

emanating out of the mysterious, fathomless,

deep-sounding abyss, gahanaM gabhIram, within ‘That

One’. Emerging out of the gahanaM gabhIram, kAmah

manifests the first atom of mind and it was through

the power reflected in their heart/mind that the seers

were able to penetrate the universal heart/mind and

there discover the truth of existence and

non-existence. The individual meets with the

universal, vyashti with samashti, and that is the

purpose of their tapas and yajna, austerities and

sacrifice.

 

kAmastadagre samavartatAdhi manaso retaH prathamaM

yadAsIt |

sato bandhumasati niravindan hRdi pratISyAkavayo

manias ||

 

‘Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the

primal seed and germ of Spirit

( mind or consciousness).

Sages who searched with their heart's thought

discovered the existent's kinship in the

non-existent.’ RV.X 129. 4

 

Although these sages had come to understand through

insight that the manifest forms require an unmanifest

substratum, that sound needs silence as it were, they

still acknowledged that the ultimate substratum of

being and non-being would remain a mystery, ever

ineffable, hidden in the great depths of the universal

substratum:

 

iyáM vísRSTir yáta aababhuúva yádi vaa dadhé yádi vaa

ná |

yó asyaádhyakSaH paramé vyòman só aÑgá veda yádi vaa

ná véda ||

 

‘He, the first origin of this creation, whether he

formed it all or did not form it,

Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in

highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he

knows not.’ RV. X 129.7

 

As the many devaH emanate out of the single

self-power, svadha, of ‘That One’ through some

mysterious process, so too do the devaH and asuraH

themselves assume different forms. Agni appears as the

flame, the heat of the body and the lightning flash.

It is all quite magical how it happens.

 

 

 

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed,

breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Ken-ji

 

Some comments...

>I begin by quoting again: 'All gods of one accord,

>with one intention, move unobstructed to a single

>purpose'

 

Notice the contrast with the Greek Gods, who were always quarreling.

Also, if this goes way back to the Vedas, then it shows that Judaism

did not invent the monotheistic concept, i.e. the fundamental unity

of the Divine, although the Vedas were perhaps truer to Nature by

allowing this unity to be expressed in a diversity of Gods and forms.

 

>But they were not so concerned with

>reaching the 'silence and stillness'

>that may exist beyond the sounds.

 

Well, was it not until the later Upanishads (source of Vedanta or

'end of Vedas') that we see the turn away from ritual to discussions

of the 'ineffable' nature of Brahman? Perhaps chanting mantras can

be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly phenomenal

rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible insights of the

Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent nature than

ritual, being invisible and evocative. (I'm just speculating and

trying to enter into the spirit of your discussion. By the way, one

of the more beautiful aspects of Christianity is its music.)

 

>The substratum that is all-pervading was titled 'That

>One', tad ekam, and it 'existed' through its own

>power, svadha, and there was nothing but itself. It is

>unique in its self-witnessing power.

 

All quite Advaitic sounding! Notice also that by calling it simply

'That One', its ineffable nature is emphasized.

 

 

The Hymn of Creation, which you then quote, never ceases to impress.

>'Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal:

>no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.

>That One, breathless, breathed by its own nature:

>apart from it was nothing whatsoever.' RV. X.129.2

 

I might add that this also sounds like what one might experience in

nirvikalpa samadhi. Hence a connection between the inmost depths of

meditation and the creation of the cosmos, which are each but two

sides of the same coin of consciousness. Indeed, they are the same

absolutely.

 

>'That One' is a mystery beyond knowing and the

>power of speech to explain...

 

Aha! I was right! Good guess! :-)

 

>The gods are later than this world's production.

>Who knows then whence it first came into being?'

 

A significant advance over merely theistic religion. The ultimate

principle of Reality is beyond even the notion of God or Ishwara, as

emphasized by Shankara, Ramana and even the Christian mystic Meister

Eckhart (viz. God vs. Godhead).

 

>The devAH are here said to have appeared after the

>universe evolved through love or desire, kAmah,

 

Vedanta and Buddhism both have the insight that it is desire ...

primarily desire to BE ... which is the impulse which caused the jiva

to manifest in the world of maya. Schopenhauer said something like

this too, I believe. This elemental impulse is a rude denial of the

fundamentally peaceful and static and unlimited nature of Brahman,

which has no need of change or form nor is capable of it, except

through the device of illusion. This impulse to be is also the

drive to *discriminate* different apparent entities in the

homogeneous Consciousness, which produces the mind and all forms of

duality and 'existence'. Hence, the fundamentally impure and

turbulent nature of samsara, until transcended in wisdom, which is

essentially a return to nondual Brahman while perhaps maintaining the

multiplicity of samsara in a sublimated state.

 

 

And finally, some of my favorite lines:

>Whose eye controls this world (is the Witness) in

>highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he

>knows not.'

 

This breathtaking open-mindedness and unabashed inquiry suggests that

even God (Ishwara) may not understand the ultimate truth. Contrast

that with the dogmatic pieties of other religions. That is why I say

that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them but rather to

absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead...

 

>It is all quite magical how it happens.

 

A correct observation!

 

Hari Om!

Benjamin

[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya>

wrote:

> Namaste all,

> In order to take the step into understanding mAyA in

> the Rgveda saMhitA then this posting is a key one.

>

Namaste.

 

A few words about the nAsadIya-sUktaM (RV: X-129), the riks from

which have been commented upon by Ken-ji in the above post and an

earlier post.

 

It is interesting to note that this entire Rg-Vedic sUktam (X –

129) appears in the Krishna Yajur Veda also, though not in the

Samhita portion, but in the Ashtaka portion of the Taittiriya

Brahmana. As I had, as a boy, learnt the recitation of it that

way, I was not aware that it was one of the sUktas of the Rg Veda

and that it was how it was known across the world, until, later in

my life, I happened to read AB Keith's History of Sankrit

literature. In my learning, it was part of the `udaka-shAnti'

mantras that pundits recite in chorus as an hour long recitation

for sanctifying Water to be used for ritual purification in all

important religious functions, whether at home or in a temple. And

here – in this ritualistic use -- lies hidden a key point of

advaitic philosophy, to which Ken-ji has referred to in his own

original inimitable way.

 

Ken-ji writes: "it was through the power reflected in their

heart/mind that the seers were able to penetrate the universal

heart/mind and there discover the truth of existence and non-

existence. The individual meets with the universal, vyashti with

samashti, and that is the purpose of their tapas and yajna,

austerities and sacrifice".

 

This, I may say, is the key-note of all religious rituals

associated with Hinduism. Now the mantras that purify the water

kept in a vessel, appeal to Gods Indra, Varuna and the like. But

what is the source of power for these gods to purify the water? In

fact there is a sukta in the Taittiriya brahmana

called `aghamarshana-sukta' which one recites during one's bath,

thereby helping his own spiritual purification along with the

physical purification. And this sukta, as usual appeals to all gods

like Varuna and Indra and to all rivers like Ganga, Yamuna and so on

and plead with them to do the purification. Finally the sukta also

brings in the sentences "yo'ham-asmi brahma-aham-asmi, aham-asmi

brahma-aham-asmi; aham-eva-ahaM mAM juhomi" meaning so much

as: `Whoever I am that is brahman, I am brahman, I am nothing but

brahman'. Now try to find a logic why this should form part of a

purification-mantra!

 

The only logic is this. No devata – Indra, Varuna, or Ganga or what

you have – can make you perfect and pure until all the impure, all

the non-Self, have been thrown away. And that will happen only when

the complete identification of not only this `I" but also everything

of `idam' – this universe – is identified with brahman. And when

such an identification takes place there is no more Varuna or Indra

or Ganga – there is only brahman. It is only that state which is

the state of perfection and purity. This is why every sUkta that is

intended for purification, though appealing to `lesser' devatas,

finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate the fact

that `All this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind has to be

touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of all tapas, yajna

and ritual. And that is why, though I have been reciting the

nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a routine portion

of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it had to be there;

for without it there can be no `meeting of the individual with the

universal, vyashti with samashti'!

 

PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote:

>

> To what is One, sages give many a title they call it

> Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.' RV I.164.46

>

> So the seers speculated as to the source of these

> multivarious sounds (names) and powers manifesting in

> their environment. But they were not so concerned with

> reaching the `silence and stillness' that may exist

> beyond the sounds. They speak of ninyA vacAMsi, `the

> words rising from the depths', but there is no use (

> as far as I know at the moment ) of such words as

> `mauna' or `mouna' which is that silence which is

> later regarded as being the truth of Brahman, or that

> silence discovered by the `knower of Brahman' while in

> union in stillness.

 

Namaste Ken-ji,

 

Thanks again for a stimulating start.

 

A couple of comments on the above paragraph: The

word 'speculated' seems to be an intellectual simplification to

describe the ' mantra-drashta's ' (seer) utterance.

 

The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs in Rigveda in:

10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -

 

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10136.htm

 

[7:56:8 ; 8:17:14]

 

HYMN CXXXVI. Kesins.

 

2 The Munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow

hue.

They, following the wind's swift course go where the Gods have gone

before.

3 Transported with our Munihood we have pressed on into the winds:

You therefore, mortal men. behold our natural bodies and no more.

4 The Muni, made associate in the holy work of every God,

Looking upon all varied forms flies through the region of the air.

5 The Steed of Vata, Vayu's friend, the Muni, by the Gods impelled,

In both the oceans hath his home, in eastern and in western sea.

 

It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya upan. also.

 

When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would seem to be a natural

conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15; Kena 1:5 & 8).

 

When silence (mounam) as the highest form of spiritual

initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to Shankara to

Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of Rigveda has no

reference to it (as we understand it).

 

Your thoughts on this aspect would be very welcome.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

--- Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

> A couple of comments on the above

> paragraph: The

> word 'speculated' seems to be an intellectual

> simplification to

> describe the ' mantra-drashta's ' (seer) utterance.

 

Namaste Sunder-ji,

 

Many apologies for this error, I had slipped into

academic speak in which 'intellectual simplification'

is the only acceptable PC means of communication.

Also, I should not have been so specific in mentioning

the rishi's. What I was trying to present was a

section building upon the earlier 'power and the

glory' posting, and suggesting that this immense leap

in human consciousness to internalise the immense

power perceived to be driving the 'emanation', would

lead to a general enquiry for all humanity. This

should be the same for us while we cannot claim to be

rishis.

>

> The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs

> in Rigveda in:

> 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -

 

I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do

you search and find such words. I downloaded the

complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and

English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any

other method? I certainly found no more examples than

those you posted.)

 

Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent

ascetic from these references or do you think that

this is a later meaning? In the two hymns from the

earlier collection a fair amount of interpretation has

to be made to get at that definition. The later one

from Book X could give such an interpretation but with

no back up reference to mouna/mauna somewhere in the

Rgveda I am not so sure.

In VIII.17 we have the praise of Indra as the pillar,

the unmoving tower of strength towards which the wise,

discriminating, firm munis approach in friendship.

But I do not see in this the idea that such close

companionship is the ultimate silence as 'taught' by

Dakshinamurti. Could be but....

What can be noted clearly is again the acknowledgement

here of immense power that will release the cows from

the cave, or inspiration from the cave of the heart.

I keep using this imagery because that has been my

experience, an experience of an immense sound suddenly

released from within 'me'while sounding Sanskrit

vowels.

 

In VII.4,8 then it is this power in the form of the

Maruts, released from their mother's womb by the

lightning bolt of Indra, Not keen on Griffith's

translation here. Here again, the muni is one who has

been inspired by the immense power, in this case the

forceful winds of the Maruts.

 

This connection with the Maruts is confirmed by the

later hymn which you quoted at length. The Muni is

able to move freely in the subtle realm, with insight

understanding those mysteries that are hidden to those

engrossed in physical names and forms, and he is

driven, powered by the forces let loose by Indra.

Here are the relevant Rks.

VIII.17.14

vaástoS pate dhruvaá sthuúNaáMsatraM somyaánaam |

drapsó bhettaá puraáM sháshvatiinaam índro múniinaaM

sákhaa ||

 

‘Strong pillar thou, Lord of the home, armour of

Soma-offerers:

The drop of Soma breaketh all the strongholds down,

and Indra is the Rsis' Friend’

VII.56.4

etaáni dhiíro niNyaá ciketa pR'shnir yád uúdho mahií

jabhaára ||

‘ A sage was he who knew these mysteries, what in her

udder mighty Prsni (mother of maruts) bore. ‘

VII.56.8

shubhró vaH shúSmaH krúdhmii mánaaMsi dhúnir múnir

iva shárdhasya dhRSNóH ||

 

‘Bright is your spirit, wrathful are your minds: your

bold troop's minstrel is like one inspired.’

 

If anyone else comes by this posting and wonders about

the Maruts:

 

'The Maruts were minor storm deities who in Vedic

times were the sons of Rudra and the attendants of

Indra. There number is variously given as two,

twenty-seven, or sixty. They were aggressive and

violent in character. They were the drivers of the

clouds, the bringers of wind, the fellers of trees,

and the crushers of mountains. They sometimes

accompanied Indra into battle, and attended him at his

court.

In the Ramayana the story is told of their birth.

Their mother, the goddess Diti, wanted to give birth

to a son who would rival Indra in power, so she

planned to remain pregnant for an entire century to

accomplish this. Indra learned of this and was worried

about it. To upset her plan, he hurled his thunderbolt

at her womb while she was still pregnant, shattering

it. The Maruts were born from the single, splintered

fetus. '

 

 

> It occurs in Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya

> upan. also.

>

> When ONLY the ONE exists, silence would

> seem to be a natural

> conclusion; who will hear what? (Brihad. 4:5:15;

> Kena 1:5 & 8).

>

> When silence (mounam) as the highest form

> of spiritual

> initiation has been affirmed from Dakshinamurty to

> Shankara to

> Ramana, it may only mean that the extant parts of

> Rigveda has no

> reference to it (as we understand it).

>Your thoughts on this aspect would be very

> welcome.

 

 

Certainly I understand this. Also, I am sure that the

Rishi's only spoke, devised the mantras, in order to

teach. But having spoken, people became too attached

to the rituals and the upanishads had to restore the

inner meaning so they moved towards and emphasised the

unmoving, the nirguna brahman.

Now this leads us to my problem with mAyA as it was

being taught to me by pseudo-advaitin schools in the

UK. But I must not proceed too quickly on that one.

It is better that I look back to the excellent

discussion we had on this site in April on purna.

That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer

but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a

single drop of water or an ocean.

 

But those are only some first thoughts. Maybe after

dog-walking in England's Chennai-like heat today I

will have some inspiration. More likely I will need

your further explanation,

 

 

Ken Knight

>

> Regards,

>

> Sunder

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

our most beloved ken-knightji makes a stunning observation...

 

" That silence is not an emptiness as some would prefer

but a roaring fullness, a pregnant presence in a

single drop of water or an ocean."

 

YES! how do we define 'silence' in the realm of spirituality?

 

Is it

 

The silence of speech ?

The silence of senses ?

The silence of violent restraint ?

The silence of false ego or deluded mind ?

 

on another note,

 

In the manu smriti, it is said ...

 

"maunat satyam visisyate"

 

"Truth is superior to silence"

 

The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" -

one has undertaken the vow of silence.

 

Rg-veda hymn X, 136:

 

"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow

hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have

gone before."

 

This indeed is an intriguing subject.

>From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!!

 

AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL?

 

later , i will post the Hymn to Vak ?(the wisdom of the word) from rg

veda.

 

love and regards

[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote:

>

> > The word 'muni' (silent ascetic) occurs

> > in Rigveda in:

> > 10:136, 7:56:8,, 8:17:14 -

>

> I have had a look at these hymns (By the way, how do

> you search and find such words. I downloaded the

> complete Rgveda in Devanagari, transliteration and

> English and then use 'find' in Edit. Have you any

> other method? I certainly found no more examples than

> those you posted.)

>

> Do you think that you can define 'muni' as silent

> ascetic from these references or do you think that

> this is a later meaning?

 

Namaste Ken-ji,

 

Bloomfield's Vedic Concordance is available online:

 

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/VedicConcordance/ReadmeEng.h

tml

 

In the context of 'eternalness' of Vedic mantras, one has to

wonder if a historical view of 'earlier and later' meanings would be

a valid distinction.

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

[P.S. Please do not worry about 'tardiness' in replying. You may

certainly keep questions in 'storage' for a later response, if the

question and response would likely cause a 'detour' in your planned

presentations. Chandogya upan. 7:1-26, Sanatkumara's instructions to

Narada, gives an idea of how many such detours can occur!]

[Guest guest]

--- Benjamin <orion777ben wrote:

>

> Namaste Ben-ji

 

As always you are able to give us thoughtful

consideration of what has been presented. Each of your

comments requires further comment but I have taken up

only one. One becomes many indeed!!.

>

> Perhaps

> chanting mantras can

> be seen as an intermediary stage between the overtly

> phenomenal

> rituals of 'ordinary' religion and the inexpressible

> insights of the

> Vedanta. Sound has a more tenuous and transcendent

> nature than

> ritual, being invisible and evocative.

 

I do not know enough about 'mantra' to speak

authoritatively but in the context of this June topic

here are a few points.

Mantra has power and the source of that power in the

truth and order (satyam/Rtam) that stands as a pillar

at the very centre of the Rgvedic universe. This pure

power is observed 'in the heart' of the rishi and

encapsulated in the mantra and then is released upon

the correct utterance.

I see this as the first step. Rituals form around that

mantra. Then comes interpretation and explanation

which superimpose error on the original meaning. This

is why the oral tradition has to be so designed to

protect the mantra...or rather protect the users of

the mantra from impurity. We could look at a number

of relevant hymns but I do not want to take up too

much cyber-space for what is essentially another

single topic for discussion. The philosophical

interpretations of the Upanishads etc. are already

contained in the original sound of the mantra for

those with ears to hear and eyes to see. I do not see

them as an evolutionary step in superiority.

Big topic this one. There is an American, Ellison

Banks Findly, who has written an excellent essay on

the Rgvedic aspect of mantra in 'Mantra', ed. Harvey

Alper SUNY PRESS 1989.

 

I have previously mentioned the writing of Dr

Ramachandra Rao and am posting some of his words below

on this topic.

 

'Mantras

Rao

The Vedic mantras are not couched in common language.

The Vedic language, especially in the RgVeda, is meant

to embody thoughts lofty and profound born directly

out of deep concentration or tapas. The words found

their forms simultaneously with the thoughts; the

Sabda (sound) and artha ( meaning) were coeval and

formed one mass…….

Its (archaic Sanskrit) chief aim was self-expression.

But there is a definite mystery about it, because the

seers were seeking to express in a pattern of words

what was in reality beyond words. And the pattern of

words which they employed (viz, the metrical form or

chhandas) becomes important for this very reason.

Hence the alternative expression ‘Chhandas’ for the

Veda. This is also why the rnantra is not easily

intelligible, unless one strives to delve deep into

the inner meaning, hidden in the exterior sound. The

mantra is said to be well-chiselled in the heart

(Rgveda. 2,35,2 hrda su-tashtam mantram’): it provides

an insight ‘into the hidden truth beyond the words and

other expressions’ (ibid. 10,85,16 ‘yad guha tad

addhatava id viduh’). Satapatha-brahmana (10,3,5,13)

speaks of mantra as knowledge of the hidden truth

(addha-vidva). the truth that settles all doubts (cf.

Chhandogyaupanishad, 3, 14,4 ‘addhâ na vichikitsastii,

and affords certainty to ones knowledge (cf. Rgvcda,

3, 54, 11; 10, III, 7 and 10, 129, 6 ‘addha veda’).

The mantra thus embodies a vision of cosmic order or

truth that manifests itself everywhere and at all

times (Rgveda 9,76.4). Rta, the universal, eternal and

immutable law is in fact the reality. The Vedic poet

saw it operating everywhere, in sun, moon, mountain,

tree, man, beast and rain, wind and bird; and he

firmly believed in it not only as the natural order

but as moral law. It was the source of plenty; and it

destroys sins (Rgveda, 4. 23.8-10); it is how

Providence manifests itself (8. 100, 34, and 4, 40.

5). There is no truth apart from this (MahAnArayanIya.

1,6). It shines forth as all powers and qualities, as

beauty (Sri), glory (bharga), splendour (mahas),

brilliance (varchas). power (ojas), intelligence

(dhIh), valour (sAhasa), light (jyoti), and life

(jiva). The poet also recognized the supremacy of Rta

in his own life. Human life, like anything else in the

world, is guided by Rta. …….

Such being the importance of the mantra. there must be

a concern to render it most effective, and this is

done by prefacing the mantra with the triad (trika) as

mentioned above( name of seer, metrical form of the

mantra and name of the deity being invoked). When the

triad is specifically mentioned, it indicates that

what follows is a mantra; and that it is not a formal

or ordinary communication. It is not the utterance of

the three details (rshi, chhandas and devata) that is

as important as the knowledge and calling to mind of

these details (anusmarana). That is why Prapahcha-sAra

and Rudra-kalpa-druma say that all three must be borne

in the heart (‘hRdi pratishthA) for mantra to become

significant and effective.

 

 

> That is why I say

> that the Vedas do not want us to genuflect to them

> but rather to

> absorb their spirit, wherever that may lead...

>

 

And from my earlier posting today:

'Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as

the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a

wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw

the tears on his comrade’s cheeks, and bowed his head

and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed

by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then

the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand

with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole,

and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the

light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as

they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but

for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. ‘

 

Sorry this is so long but these are important matters

 

 

ken

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste,

Adi Shakthi wrote:

 

In the manu smriti, it is said ...

"maunat satyam visisyate"

"Truth is superior to silence"

 

The sanskrit word for silence is Mauna derived from the word "Muni" -

one has undertaken the vow of silence.

 

Rg-veda hymn X, 136:

 

"The munis, girdled with the wind, wear garments soiled of yellow

hue. They, following the winds swift course, go where the gods have

gone before."

This indeed is an intriguing subject.

>From Sound comes Speech and from speech comes Silence!!!!

AM I MAKING ANY SENSE AT ALL?

-

 

Yes, it makes an intuitive sense.

This brings to mind what the American poet Ezra Pound said of his poems:

"These words were written by a man believing in silence who could not withhold

himself from speaking." Pound was well aware that poetry was a spoken (or sung)

art; his major long works are called "Cantos." In a way, Pound indicates that

the poet follows this 'virtuous cycle,' as it were; from sound comes speech;

from speech comes silence; and from silence comes the truth, which the poet

allows to pass cleanly through himself. This intuitive process perhaps

resembles that that of the creation as well as that way in which Vedas were

heard and revealed by the rishis.

Does this, in turn, make any sense?

 

Warm regards,

Kenneth