June Topic: mAyA in the vedas: the One and the many

[Guest guest]

Namaste All,

 

How wonderful, how wonderful, how wonderful!!!

Three wonderful replies.

The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations.

I am going to settle to reply to each of yours but may

not be able to post until this evening, so please

forgive any tardiness.

 

Reading your three replies I was minded of the

following. Is it scripture? I think so. Where is it

from? That sun-rise of inspiration in an indivdual

known as Kenneth Grahame. It is extracted from a

chapter...'Piper at the Gates of Dawn'...from a

children's book, 'Wind in the Willows'.

 

Scene. A young otter has gone missing and two friends,

Rat and Mole, set off in search of the youngster even

though it is late in the night.

Would our Vedic ancestors have smiled in recognition?

I think so:

 

‘The line of the horizon was clear and hard against

the sky, and in one particular quarter it showed black

against a silvery climbing phosphorescence that grew

and grew. At last, over the rim of the waiting earth

the moon lifted with slow majesty till it swung clear

of the horizon and rode off, free of moorings; and

once more they began to see surfaces; meadows

widespread, and quiet gardens, and the river itself

from bank to bank, all softly disclosed, all washed

clean of mystery and terror, all radiant again as by

day, but with a difference that was tremendous Their

old haunts greeted them again in other raiment, as if

they had slipped away and put on this pure new apparel

and come quietly back, smiling as they shyly waited to

see if they would be recognized again under it.

Fastening their boat to a willow, the friends landed

in this silent, silver kingdom, and patiently explored

the hedges, the hollow trees, the tunnels and their

little culverts, the ditches and dry waterways.

Embarking again and crossing over, they worked their

way up the stream in this manner, while the moon,

serene and detached in a cloudless sky, did what she

could, though so far off, to help them in their quest;

till her hour came and she sank earthwards

reluctantly, and left them, and mystery once more held

field and river.

Then a change began slowly to declare itself. The

horizon became clearer, field and tree came more into

sight, and somehow with a different look; the mystery

began to drop away from them. A bird piped suddenly,

and was still; and a light breeze sprang up and set

the reeds and bulrushes rustling. Rat, who was in the

stern of the boat, while Mole sculled, sat up suddenly

and listened with a passionate intentness. Mole, who

with gentle strokes was just keeping the boat moving

while he scanned the banks with care, looked at him

with curiosity.

“It’s gone!” sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat

again. “So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was

to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it.

For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and

nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound

once more and go on listening to it for ever."

 

"No! There it is again!” he cried, alert once more.

Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound.

“Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it,” he said

presently. “O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry

bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the

distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the

call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet!

Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be

for us.”

The Mole, greatly wondering, obeyed. “I hear nothing

myself,’ he said, “but the wind playing in the reeds

and rushes and osiers.”

The Rat never answered, if indeed he heard. Rapt,

transported, trembling, he was possessed in all his

senses by this new divine thing that caught up his

helpless soul and swung and dandled it, a powerless

but happy infant, in a strong sustaining grasp.

In silence Mole rowed steadily and soon they came to a

point where the river divided, a long backwater

branching off to one side. With a slight movement of

his head Rat, who had long dropped the rudder-lines,

directed the rower to take the backwater. The creeping

tide of light gained and gained, and now they could

see the colour of the flowers that gemmed the water’s

edge.

“Clearer and nearer still,” cried the Rat joyously.

“Now you must surely hear it! Ah! At last !I see you

do!”

Breathless and transfixed the Mole stopped rowing as

the liquid run of that glad piping broke on him like a

wave, caught him up, and possessed him utterly. He saw

the tears on his comrade’s cheeks, and bowed his head

and understood. For a space they hung there, brushed

by the purple loosestrife that fringed the bank; then

the clear imperious summons that marched hand-in-hand

with the intoxicating melody imposed its will on Mole,

and mechanically he bent to his oars again. And the

light grew steadily stronger, but no birds sang as

they were wont to do at the approach of dawn; and but

for the heavenly music all was marvellouslv still. ‘

 

If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for

you.

Do they find the baby otter ? Read the book.

Have we heard the 'sound' of the Vedas?

I think so.

 

Ken Knight

 

 

 

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>From the Rg Veda, The rishi, the sage through whom this revelation

is made, to whom this hymn is revealed is a woman. The name of the

great master through whom this hymn was revealed is not known. All it

says is that the rishi, the master, the revealer of this hymn is

known as Vak (pronounced vaak), meaning "The Divine Speech.

 

 

 

Her Sacred Formless Form

 

I who am one with the totality of existence, consciousness, and bliss

 

I wander with all the Gods of the earth, sky, and heaven.

 

I am the Sustainer of the Lords of the Sun, the Seas, the Thunder and

 

Fire (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Agni).

 

I am the Sustainer of Soma, the ever-flowing mystic Water of the

Universe

 

that streams through space.

 

I am the One who bears fruit for all who seek Divine Love.

 

I am the One who offers Grace to those who sacrifice

 

and honor the Divine Beings.

 

I am the Lady ruling the whole Universe.

 

I am the One who brings wealth of joy to my worshippers.

 

I am the dominant One among those who are united with

 

the Divine Reality.

 

In all these various forms I have manifested only Myself, I have

entered

 

all the elements of the Universe.

 

It is I to whom all the deities give service.

 

Whoever consumes Food does so only by my Grace and Power.

 

Whoever sees, breathes, hears, utters a cry, receives these

 

experiences through my Divine aid.

 

Those, who do not know Me in this Power, in this Glory, through their

 

ignorance, they fall very low in the levels of existence.

 

Therefore, oh learned beings, I teach you this Essential

 

Knowledge, which can be gained only through deep faith in Me.

 

I shall teach you this Essence of Reality which is followed both by

 

human beings and by the gods.

 

Whomsoever I wish to protect, him I protect and make powerful with

 

my Grace.

 

For he attains the Unity with the Creator and finds the Knowledge that

 

is hidden from beyond one's eyes.

 

I am the Creator of all the Spaces that are the progenitors of this

earth.

 

In the Ocean from which all the beings are born and in all the Waters

 

of the mind,

 

It is because of Me that the Unity of the spiritual force flows.

 

It is I, who fill this whole Universe, touching even the highest

heaven

 

with my Body.

 

When I, the First Cause of the Universe, begin to create

 

without any other source impelling me,

 

like a self-propelled wind,

 

I move forward by my own Volition.

 

For, I am beyond both earth and heaven.

 

Oh, indeed such is my Glory.

 

This is the most ancient statement of the divinity of an incarnate

being in the literature of the world spoken by a woman.

 

Enjoy the hymn of Divine speech!

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

In the context of 'harmony of sound' and 'silence', a

previous relevant post is referred:

advaitin/message/15528

 

It is interesting to note that 'When the Word was with

God' ... what was it ? Probably 'silence' ...

 

With Love,

Raghava

 

 

 

 

______________________

India Matrimony: Find your partner online.

http://.shaadi.com/india-matrimony/

[Guest guest]

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote:

>And when

> such an identification takes place there is no more

> Varuna or Indra

> or Ganga – there is only brahman. It is only that

> state which is

> the state of perfection and purity. This is why

> every sUkta that is

> intended for purification, though appealing to

> `lesser' devatas,

> finally esoterically has to point out and reiterate

> the fact

> that `All this is brahman'. The universal heart/mind

> has to be

> touched and as Ken-ji says, this is the purpose of

> all tapas, yajna

> and ritual. And that is why, though I have been

> reciting the

> nAsadIya-sUkta from my boyhood as if it were just a

> routine portion

> of the udaka-shAnti mantra, it is clear now that it

> had to be there;

> for without it there can be no `meeting of the

> individual with the

> universal, vyashti with samashti'!

 

 

Namaste Professor,

Sorry to have delayed my reply. You have responded so

well to my appeal at the beginning of this topic for

those with practical experience to help me out. So

many, many thanks.

No doubt all births are lawful, each of us in the

right place, but how much I yearn to have had one such

as yours where the Vedas were there to be learned by

heart. Although I am sure that you also wished to be

elsewhere at times.

One of the founder members of this group, Madhava

Turumella, has met up with me a couple of times

recently and whenever I mention to him some translated

Sloka he rattles off the Sanskrit learned in his

youth. All I learned was about Jack and Jill going up

some hill, and it takes me ages to learn a single

stanza in Sanskrit. Come to think of it, a lot of the

mantras translate into sentences that seem to have as

much meaning as Jack and Jill going up their hill.

I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri

Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any

understanding shines through these postings it is

through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are

invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two

wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this

topic. Clearly their influence is coming to our aid

because your last posting, as well as other members'

postings of the last two days, prepares the way for my

next one. Always a good sign when this happens during

discussions.

I had intended replying to your post step by step but

found it had already been written in the YAska posting

which I will put out tonight.

 

However, to return to the individual dissolving in the

universal: RV.I.164. Here is the basic question for

all of us:

 

6 ácikitvaañ cikitúSash cid átra kaviín pRchaami

vidmáne ná vidvaán |

ví yás tastámbha SáL imaá rájaaMsy ajásya ruupé kím

ápi svid ékam ||

 

‘I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one

all ignorant for sake of knowledge,

What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath

stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.’

 

 

It is this question that leads into the famous 'two

birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.

 

To approach any event thinking that we know what is

going on is fraught with danger and first we

acknowledge that we are not actually in charge of

things.

 

dyaúr me pitaá janitaá naábhir átra bándhur me maataá

pRthivií mahiíyám |

uttaanáyosh camvòr yónir antár átraa pitaá duhitúr

gárbham aádhaat ||

 

‘Dyaus is my Father, my begetter: kinship is here.

This great earth is my kin and Mother.

Between the wide-spread world-halves is the

birth-place: the Father laid the Daughter's germ

within it.’

 

 

Next the rishi asks these great questions.

 

pRchaámi tvaa páram ántam pRthivyaáH pRchaámi yátra

bhúvanasya naábhiH |

pRchaámi tvaa vR'SNo áshvasya rétaH pRchaámi vaacáH

paramáM vyòma ||

 

‘ I ask thee of the earth's extremest limit, where is

the centre of the world, I ask

thee.

I ask thee of the Stallion's seed prolific, I ask of

highest heaven where Speech abideth.’

 

 

The answers he gets are a great teaching. I am sure

that they must be central to all that you were given

in your childhood.

 

iyáM védiH páro ántaH pRthivyaá ayáM yajñó bhúvanasya

naábhiH |

ayáM sómo vR'SNo áshvasya réto brahmaáyáM vaacáH

paramáM vyòma ||

 

‘This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this

sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.

The Stallion's seed prolific is the Soma; this Brahman

highest heaven where Speech abideth.’

 

 

Sorry. The above is all rather disjointed but my son,

now less than 24 hours away from emigrating, suddenly

wants more conversation than he has had with me for

the past year. Hence telephone interruptions while

typing,

 

Thank you for your valuable contributions,

 

 

Ken Knight

>

>

>

 

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Kenji wrote...

> The nasadIya sUkta sings through all generations.

 

> "It's gone!" sighed the Rat, sinking back in his seat

> again. "So beautiful and strange and new! Since it was

> to end so soon, I almost wish I had never heard it.

> For it has mused a longing in me that is pain, and

> nothing seems worth while but just to hear that sound

> once more and go on listening to it for ever."

>

> "No! There it is again!" he cried, alert once more.

> Entranced, he was silent for a long space, spellbound.

> "Now it passes on, and I begin to lose it," he said

> presently. "O, Mole! the beauty of it! The merry

> bubble and joy, the thin, clear, happy call of the

> distant piping. Such music I never dreamed of, and the

> call in it is stronger even than the music is sweet!

> Row on, Mole, row! For the music and the call must be

> for us."

> If Lady Joyce passes this way, that is especially for

> you.

> Do they find the baby otter ?

 

May he be found and possessed

such that he is eternally

lost in the call

 

Especially for you...

 

http://www.omshaantih.com/Poetry/Rumi/Be%20Lost/1.htm

 

Love,

 

Joyce

[Guest guest]

Ken-Knightji observes... .. (in the introductory message number

23044)

 

"If any understanding of value emerges from my

contribution to this study it is through the grace of

Sri Anandamayi Ma and Dr. Gopinath Kaviraj who were

met on one blessed day in Varanasi some 40 years ago.

They both died many years back and although we never

met again, physically that is, somehow they have

subtly influenced my erratic efforts to understand the

wisdom of India."

 

and now again he reiterates

 

"I began this topic also by honouring and naming Sri

Anandamayi Ma and Dr Gopinath Kaviraj. If any

understanding shines through these postings it is

through their presence. As the rishi and devataH are

invoked at the beginning of the hymn so these two

wonderful people were invoked at the beginning of this

topic. "

 

Ken Knightji ! That is the way to go ! It appears to me that the

great FEMALE TANTRIK guru Sri ANANDAMAYI MA gave you 'shaktipat'

or 'nayana diksha' when she met you in Varanasi some 40 years ago

when you were a mere lad of 23 years. We can seen the 'grace of guru'

and the 'grace of Saraswati devi' ( the goddess of speech and

learning ) flowing through your mighty Pen.

 

On this beautiful Thursday dedicated to the Guru , it is my pleasure

to bring to you this all time favorite verse of mine

 

As it is said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.23):

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

 

 

"Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and

the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are

automatically revealed." (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23)

 

Yes ! it is through the devotion to the Guru and to the God/ess

that one can really understand such complex truths of Vedic texts.

 

Kenji writes again...

 

`I ask, unknowing, those who know, the sages, as one

all ignorant for sake of knowledge,

What was that ONE who in the Unborn's image hath

stablished and fixed firm these worlds' six regions.'

 

It is this question that leads into the famous 'two

birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.

 

Yes! the imagery of two birds sitting on a tree from the upanishads !

why only beloved of Vedantins ? THE imagery of two birds sitting on a

tree is beloved of dwaithas too? You know, i IN my gopi heart ,

KRISHNA OR VISHNU HAS TAKEN A PERMANENT RESIDENCE. and every

wednesday, i listen to Sri Vishnu Sahasaranama in the melodious voice

of Smt. M.S. Subbalaxmi.

 

 

"dvA *suparNA* sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vRksham parishvajAte

tayoranyah pippalam svAdvanti, anaSnan anyo abhicAkaSIti

(mundakopanishad - 3.1) -

 

literally translated it means (dwaitha interpretation)

 

In the upanishad-s, we have reference to two beautiful birds sitting

on the same tree - signifying the jIvAtmA and the ParamAtmA dwelling

in the same body. One (jIvAtmA) eats the fruits of actions, and the

other (ParamAtMA) just gazes on (sAkshI).

 

A pair of white-winged birds extremely friendly to each other sit on

one and the same tree; one eats the fruits, the other eats not and

gazes on".

 

SrI rAdhAkRshNa Sastri refers to one as the great enjoyer (pErinbam),

and the other as the Great Knower (pEraRivu).

 

thus,

 

Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable

companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the

birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet.

The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on,

illuminating all around.

 

once again,

 

dvA suparNA sayujA sakhAyA samAnam vrikSham parishasvajAte |

tayoranyah pippalam svAdvatti anashnan anyah abhicAkashIti ||

 

Two birds of handsome wings (the Jiva and Ishvara), inseparable

companions, dwell on the same (Ashvattha) tree (the body). One of the

birds (the Jiva) eats the (really bitter) fruit as if it is sweet.

The other Bird (Ishvara or God), without eating, looks on,

illuminating all around.

 

and who is the "SUPARNA" ?

 

One of the names of sri Vishnu bhagwan is "Suparana" ( nama -194 in

Sri vishnu sahasaranama)

 

a) (literally) it means one possessed of charming feathers

 

b) One who can lead men to the other shore across the ocean of

samsAra.

 

Om suparNAya namah.

 

a) In SrImad-bhAgavatam we have - siddheSvarANAm kapilah suparNo'ham

patatriNAm - Among the siddha-s, I am Kapila, and among birds I am

GaruDa (11.16.15). In Bhagavad-gItA, we have mRgANAm ca mRgendro'ham

vainateyaSca pakshiNAM - Among beasts, I am the lion, their king, and

among birds, I am GaruDa, the son of VinatA (10.29). Thus, suparNa is

interpreted as referring to His being the Best of the best in all

that exist.

 

b) parNa means wings. Sobhana parNatvAt suparNah - suparNa means One

with auspicious and beautiful wings. He is suparNa because He carries

His devotees to the other shore of the ocean of samsAra.

 

 

home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/sahasra/sloka21.html - 18k - Cached -

 

THis jiva ( me) always likes to maintain a tiny 'separateness' from

MAHA VISHNU so she can worship Him in all the nine modes of

devotion.

 

Now for the advaitic interpretation... any takers?

 

 

Thank you kenji for another wonderful post in these series...

 

one of the names of Sarswati is The womb or source of the Vedas

(Vedagarbha)

 

and right now , she has incarnated in this forum through You, kenji! Y

 

AUM SARASWATHYAII NAMAHA!

[Guest guest]

--- adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16 wrote:

> It is this question that leads into the famous 'two

> birds in a tree' image so beloved of Vedantins.

>

> Yes! the imagery of two birds sitting on a tree from

> the upanishads !

> why only beloved of Vedantins ?

> and who is the "SUPARNA" ?

 

Namaste,

Thank you indeed for this great collection based

around suparNA. Again, this is why I have been asking

for help from those of you who have these traditions

in your hearts through practice and experience. I

have to rely on my fingers opening the right page of a

book.

 

Why only vedantins?

Because of my own personal history in which I have

only heard Vedantins add their gloss to these texts.

Ofen in a stridently intellectual fashion. My Indian

friends here are all very devotional in their

preferences and are not too interested in sruti. They

look at me in bewilderment if I ask them the meaning

of some texts; it is just not their path.

 

If we go back to the Rgveda and seek out the two birds

in a tree we will find that some important element in

the original image are missing from all the later

texts. There is no doubt that this is the original

text:

 

RVI.164 21,22

yátraa suparNaá amR'tasya bhaagám ánimeSaM

vidáthaabhisváranti |

inó víshvasya bhúvanasya gopaáH sá maa dhiíraH paákam

átraá vivesha ||

 

'Where those fine Birds hymn ceaselessly their portion

of life eternal, and the sacred synods,

There is the Universe's mighty Keeper, who, wise, hath

entered into me the simple.'

 

yásmin vRkSé madhvádaH suparNaá nivishánte súvate

caádhi víshve |

 

tásyéd aahuH píppalaM svaadv ágre tán nón nashad yáH

pitáraM ná véda ||

 

'The tree whereon the fine Birds eat the sweetness,

where they all rest and procreate their offspring,-

Upon its top they say the fig is luscious none gaineth

it who knoweth not the Father.'

 

That is amazing. A book needs to written on those

verses.

 

I would also link in a verse, that I have previously

omitted in recent postings, from the Kena Upanishad.

IV.6

'Brahman is wll known as the one adorable to all

creatures: (hence) It is to be meditated on with the

help of the name 'tadvana'. All creatures surely pray

to anyone who meditates on It in this way.'

 

For those without any Sanskrit, 'tadvanaM' comes from

tasya, his, vanaM, which has many meanings to do

with abundance, fullness, the adorable. Hence swami

Gabhirananda comments: 'It is adorable to all

creatures, since it is their indwelling Self.

Therefore Brahman is tadvanaM nAma, well known as the

one to be adored by all beings. Since it is tadvana,

therefore tadvanam iti, through this name, tadvana,

which is indicative of Its quality; It is upAsitavyam,

to be meditated on.'

 

As meditation in/on nirguna brahman is for the few;

this meditation on a quality is being offered as the

path for the majority of us.

 

I had slipped the following into my posting on Yaska:

'Failure to penetrate to the very heart of meaning

when sounding the mantras, or the listening to such a

recitation without understanding their meaning, in his

opinion, withers the ‘flowers so that they fail to

fruit.’ Through such failure the sweetest fruit at the

top of the tree cannot be directly experienced.'

 

I was referring to these two verses in particular.

 

More later

 

 

Ken Knight

 

=====

‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya>

wrote:

>

> I would also link in a verse, that I have previously

> omitted in recent postings, from the Kena Upanishad.

> IV.6

> 'Brahman is wll known as the one adorable to all

> creatures: (hence) It is to be meditated on with the

> help of the name 'tadvana'. All creatures surely pray

> to anyone who meditates on It in this way.'

>

> For those without any Sanskrit, 'tadvanaM' comes from

> tasya, his, vanaM, which has many meanings to do

> with abundance, fullness, the adorable. Hence swami

> Gabhirananda comments: 'It is adorable to all

> creatures, since it is their indwelling Self.

> Therefore Brahman is tadvanaM nAma, well known as the

> one to be adored by all beings. Since it is tadvana,

> therefore tadvanam iti, through this name, tadvana,

> which is indicative of Its quality; It is upAsitavyam,

> to be meditated on.'

 

Namaste, Ken-ji

 

This kenopanishad IV.6 that you have quoted above reminds me of some

more mantras from "udaka-shAnti" mantras (Yajur Veda) about which I

had written earlier. These 'udaka-shAnti' mantras are an anthology

from various parts of yajur veda, strung together in a particular

sequence, for the purpose of ritual purification and sacramenting

of water kept in a vessel for the occasion. As I told you earlier,

the entire nAsadIya sUkta of the Rg Veda occurs here, though in its

yajus form (i.e. as it appears in Yajur veda).

 

Now as soon as the nasadiya portion ends, the next set of mantras

that follow are similar to the kenopanishad mantras above. I am

quoting them below, in Sanskrit. I do not know the meaning fully.

But I am sure it also must be somewhere in Rg Veda. If you have not

already quoted it, can you locate it for me, so that I can look for

the translation at the right place? The mantras are as follows:

 

"kim-svid-vanaM ka u sa vRkshha AsIt

yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh

manIshhiNo manasA pRcchate dutat

yad-adhyatishhTat bhuvanAni dhArayan

brahma-vanaM brahma sa vRkshha AsIt

yato dyAvA pRthvI nishhTa-takshhuh

manIshhiNo manasA vibravImi vaH

brahma-adhyatishhTad-bhuvanAni dhArayan "

 

You can see it means something like this: "Brahman is the abundant

forest of 'trees' It supports this earth and all the universes.Man

can only imagine it in his mind". The words "vanaM" and "vRkshha"

must be interpreted in the style of 'tadvanaM nAma' as in the above

upanishadic quotation.

 

I havce only a vague understanding of the meaning. Can you help me

(1) to locate the corresponding portion in Rg Veda, if it is there;

and

(2) to unravel the meaning, more deeply. Thanks.

 

PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda

profvk

 

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