Grand illumination

[Guest guest]

Hello Harry,

Strictly speaking the rigourist approach of Shri Sadananda should

only evoke silence or the twirling of a flower as an answer to your question.

In the world of language, expression and communication or the

autobiographies and recollections of saints and sages the road to realisation

is marked by intuitions, inklings and flashes that culminate in the great

white-out of realisation. Do they bring joy? Yes or the tail on many a

name in religion would drop off as redundant,

 

Best Wishes, Michael

[Guest guest]

ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote:

Hello Harry,

Strictly speaking the rigourist approach of Shri Sadananda should

only evoke silence or the twirling of a flower as an answer to your question.

In the world of language, expression and communication or the

autobiographies and recollections of saints and sages the road to realisation

is marked by intuitions, inklings and flashes that culminate in the great

white-out of realisation. Do they bring joy? Yes or the tail on many a

name in religion would drop off as redundant,

 

Best Wishes, Michael

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

 

 

I see that I am amongst a group of men (are there any women here?) who are

masters of logic.

 

I had better watch what I say.

 

Probably best to say nothing

 

Cheers

 

Harry

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

> Namaste Advaitins

> Very interesting and true positions. At one end of the spectrum

shree

> Harry presents the picture of an earnest seeker who could be

> wondering what the destination is like-Is there bliss or great

light

> or what could it be?

> At the other end, Sadaji, very kindly presents the picture of the

> true self where the erstwhile seeker cannot see the grand

illumination

> for he is the grand illumination himself, the subject and not the

> object ( Pardon my english).

> Let me come in between and interrupt with the kind permission of

all.

> I look in Harryji's direction and to Harryji I'd say, yes, as the

> seeker progresses with various spiritual practices or enquiry,

there

> are levels and levels of mystic experiences, from basic sense of

> calmness, occasional tranquility- ( Technically, Kevala Nirvikalpa

> Samadhi or Mano Laya) etc. to probably mystic visions ( including

> grand light), acquisition of Siddhis ( supernatural powers of 8

> types) etc. To remember, a sense of seeing grand illumination could

> be one of the above such experiences.

> I'd quickly look at where Sadaji is standing and hasten to turn to

> Harryji's side and tell Harryji to beware. These intermediate

states

> described above are mere by products. The seeker, all the while

tries

> to focus his/her mind on that which sees/ experiences and does not

> get carried away by what is seen/perceived/experienced.Why not? For

> if the attention is on the seen/ perceived then the bliss or light

> lasts only as long as that which is seen lasts.Objects and

> experiences are not enduring, that which sees is.

> If the seeker is thus focussed on the Self, he/she *becomes* the

seer

> or the *grand illumination*, the subject as Sadaji says.

> Further on in discussions, it may turnout Harryji,that you are the

> grand Illumination/ consciousness/ Bliss already and what a seeker

> attempts, is to eliminate by discrimination and practise, the

notion

> that he/she is what is seen/ experienced.

> Many thousand Namaskarams to all advaitins

> Sridhar

 

 

Dear Sridharji

 

thank you for your well-considered and illuminating reply.

 

You know, I think that the word "illunination" has been somewhat

corrupted.

 

There is one way of using it where it means "a grand mystical vision,

possibly accompanied by extra-sensory perceptions -(I think you call

them siddhis)."

 

But, amongst those of a reflective disposition,

the word "illumination" has another meaning.

 

Take the case of someone being led along by a confidence trickster.

He believes that this man (I believe most confidence tricksters are

men) is his friend, and acting in his best interests. Then he

notices that something that the confidence trickster says seems

wildly improbable. He raises the matter, confronts the trickster,

investigates the trickster's supporting evidence and finds that it

cannot stand up to scrutiny. Suddenly he sees the trickster in a

whole new light. The trickster's predatory character is suddenly very

visible. In ordinary usage, we would call that an illumination. It

doesn't mean that the one who has received the illumination has

suddenly become superior to his fellows, or that he has acquired

supernatural powers, it simply means that something that was hidden

has now been revealed.

 

Or take the case of someone from a culturally deprived background who

is befriended by someone who has a love of art, paintings for

example. The friend, (we'll call the friend "she" because women are

over-represented amongst art-lovers) takes our culturally deprived

fellow to some great museums. She shows him great paintings,

possibly by Rembrandt. They are paintings of ordinary men and women,

but they are painted in such a way that the observer, if he pays

close attention, is taken into his heart by the portrayal of the

tenderness and sensitivity and depth of being, and feels,

experiences, something of the oneness of all humanity, maybe the

oneness of everything.

 

She might show him some oriental statuary, Indian Gods and Goddesses,

or Buddha statues, which have been created in such a way that the

observer, when he comes close, finds a great silence enveloping him,

and maybe even understands that this is his own silence, that the

statuary has awakened. We would call that an illumination. No

superiority. No siddhis. Nothing added. Maybe something lost. Maybe

the need for personal respect and acknowledgement and praise has been

lessened.

 

So these are illuminations in the conventional sense of the word.

The illumination appplies both internally, to the subject, and

externally, to what the subject perceives. He who experiences them

counts himself blessed. And there is no point in anyone claiming that

such a one has not received an illumination. There is a very good

reason to point out that he has not become superior, if that is what

he should claim.

 

All that has happened is that somes scales have been removed from his

eyes and he now sees that which is obvious to anyone whose eyes have

not been covered up (and let us not go into the matter of how this

vision-distortion happens.)

 

Now, from my very limited reading of advaita texts it seems that the

writers (or the speakers) were attempting to convey, or reveal,

something about the nature of humanity, all humanity, and about the

nature of the world. From what I can gather they seem to be pointing

to an understanding which can be formulated something like: It is a

mistake to believe that one, the subject, the experiencer, is a body

or a mind; the subject is pure onsciousness. And furthermore, that

which the subject perceives is not separate from what is perceived;

the objects of perception (the world, if you like) are forms taken by

consciousness - hence,all is one.

 

I would have thought that to actually see this, rather than just know

it intellectully, as a theory, would be very illuminating, in just

the way that I have been using the word, "illumination."

 

There is one more thing I would like to add. It is possible to stand

in front of a great painting and not properly "see" it at all. In

fact, when one goes to museums it is interesting to

hear "knowledgeable folk", "experts" explaining the works to first-

time viewers. One can tell that the "experts" have read a lot of

books, that they know a lot about the theory of art, the theory of

painting. But if you listen to the tone of their voices you can tell,

by the flatness of their voices, or the pompous and high-falutin

language they use, that they have never really experienced what the

painting has to give.

 

And others, not experts, will bring a friend, and their voices will

be full of wonder and love while all thay can say is, "Can you feel

the commpassion? Look at the hands, the way they are held!"

 

It is the same with poetry. And I believe (I'm not at all sure) that

most of the highly-regarded advaita texts were written as poetry.

 

So I am trying to gain knowledge, not theoretical knowledge but real

understanding, experiential understanding, of who, or what, Harry is,

and what the world is, and what consciousness is. I am not committed

in advance to any theory. Who knows what the ultimate truth may be,

if indeed there is an ultimate truth? But if there is an ultimate

truth, and it were to be genuinely, not just theoretically, known -

or if one were to disolve into it; I am open to lots of

possibilities - then I think that the word "illumination" would be

totally appropriate. Let's not be confined by the rules of grammar

that we learned in high school.

 

Sincerely

Harry

[Guest guest]

>

> But, amongst those of a reflective disposition,

> the word "illumination" has another meaning.

>

> Take the case of someone being led along by a confidence trickster.

> He believes that this man (I believe most confidence tricksters are

> men) is his friend, and acting in his best interests. Then he

> notices that something that the confidence trickster says seems

> wildly improbable. He raises the matter, confronts the trickster,

> investigates the trickster's supporting evidence and finds that it

> cannot stand up to scrutiny. Suddenly he sees the trickster in a

> whole new light. The trickster's predatory character is suddenly

very

> visible. In ordinary usage, we would call that an illumination. It

> doesn't mean that the one who has received the illumination has

> suddenly become superior to his fellows, or that he has acquired

> supernatural powers, it simply means that something that was hidden

> has now been revealed.

>

Namaste Harryji and all

 

I agree, I had taken *illumination* in your earlier post rather

literally. The example you give is quite apt. This illumination is an

experience beyond the five senses ( technically Atindriya- Indriya

referring to senses). Similarly an example you will commonly find in

Advaiata is the 'ghost on post'. I'll attempt to elabrate

simplistically, learned members may kindly correct me. A way farer

passing by the countryside on a dark night freezes in fear when he

sees a ghost. His companion shines a torch and he discerns a post.

Thus a grand illumination is experienced in that the post is seen for

what it actually is. Similarly,by constantly focussing all ones

thoughts and energies on one's self, One will experience a grand

illumination where-in one is of the nature of existence,

consciousness, bliss and not this bundle of body, mind and intellect.

In that state one becomes the subject, the illumination itself and

what object is there for the subject to experience. The post can

never perceive the ghost!.

> So I am trying to gain knowledge, not theoretical knowledge but

real

> understanding, experiential understanding, of who, or what, Harry

is,

> and what the world is, and what consciousness is.

 

Very correctly put. The experential understanding which our sages and

Rishis have had is available to each one of us and requires some

preparation and guidance. Part of the preparation is being in good

company, reading scriptures and reflecting on them etc. You have so

wonderfully articulated your vision. As you have taken the first step

which must have come after application of discrimination of what is

transient and what is enduring,I am sure a journey well begun will

fulfill itself well.

 

I quite enjoyed this brief exchange we have had. Many thanks for the

opportunity.

 

Warm regards and Many thousand Namaskarams to all Advaitins

Sridhar

[Guest guest]

Dear Harry,

 

You make some good points here and put them over very well. It's unfortunate

that you weren't around on the group when the topic was discussed a few

months earlier. There would normally be much more interest in this sort of

post but for a) the earlier discussion and b) the other things that are

going on the moment.

 

I think the main point about your use of the word 'illumination' is that, in

respect of 'enlightenment' it can only be a metaphor (as indeed is

'enlightenment' of course). For there to be illumination there has to be a

source of light, something illuminated and an observer. When this occurs,

therefore, we must still be in the realm of duality and the activity must be

occurring at the level of mind.

 

I think that illumination does occur as an intellectual thing. One minute we

are confused in our minds and then, suddenly, something clicks and it all

makes sense. There is a paradigm shift in understanding. This must

undoubtedly be a usual prelude to the final 'realisation' and perhaps might

be regarded as the effective goal of j~nAna yoga, the yoga of knowledge.

But, in the metaphor of the pole vault, we still have to let go of the pole

before we can cross over. The mind itself has to be transcended ultimately,

because we are not that.

 

So yes, when we finally recognise the truths that Advaita is telling us,

there is an illumination. Then we are ready for the final leap!

 

Incidentally, regarding your example of looking at a great painting, you

might enjoy this note from Sri Atmananda:

 

1210. HOW DOES ADVAITA EXPRESS ITSELF EVEN IN OUR WORLDLY ACTIVITIES?

(89)

You see a picture and enjoy its beauty. What does this mean? It means that,

for the

time being, you change your stand from the gross externals to the subtle

idea, and that

you forget your personal self or ego. It is only in such a state that you

experience

peace as beauty or Happiness.

At such moments you are standing in Advaita. The original painter had first

within

himself an experience of advaitic beauty or Peace. This gradually condensed

into an

idea, which still further condensed into the gross picture. The onlookers

are also

taken, in the reverse order, to the same experience of advaitic beauty or

peace experienced

by the painter.

It is true you experience sublime beauty or happiness on witnessing objects

like a

mountain, the sea or a waterfall. This is because you forget your lower self

for the

time being and stand as one with the object, in the advaitic sense.

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Dear Dennis,

 

Thank you for this message.

 

It is good to know that one has been heard, and even better to

receive guidance and clarification.

 

And I certainly appreciated your quote from Atmananda; I shall save

it and show it to my friends.

 

Incidentally, has the Indian publisher, of the book from which this

quote was taken, begun republishing this volume? I assume the quote

was taken from the large book of conversations with Atmananda, the

conversations that were noted down by his friend/disciple Nitya.

 

Sincere regards

 

Harry

[Guest guest]

Dear Sridharji,

 

thank you for this message.

I see you as being both sweet and wise, and I liked your presentation

of the "ghost on the post" story. This may be a part of the first

lessons for advaita students, but I had never heard it before.

 

Warm regards to you, dear Sridharji,

 

Harry

 

 

advaitin, "asridhar19" <asridhar19> wrote:

> Namaste Harryji and all

>

> I agree, I had taken *illumination* in your earlier post rather

> literally. The example you give is quite apt. This illumination is

an

> experience beyond the five senses ( technically Atindriya- Indriya

> referring to senses). Similarly an example you will commonly find

in

> Advaiata is the 'ghost on post'. I'll attempt to elabrate

> simplistically, learned members may kindly correct me. A way farer

> passing by the countryside on a dark night freezes in fear when he

> sees a ghost. His companion shines a torch and he discerns a post.

> Thus a grand illumination is experienced in that the post is seen

for

> what it actually is. Similarly,by constantly focussing all ones

> thoughts and energies on one's self, One will experience a grand

> illumination where-in one is of the nature of existence,

> consciousness, bliss and not this bundle of body, mind and

intellect.

> In that state one becomes the subject, the illumination itself and

> what object is there for the subject to experience. The post can

> never perceive the ghost!.

>

> > So I am trying to gain knowledge, not theoretical knowledge but

> real

> > understanding, experiential understanding, of who, or what, Harry

> is,

> > and what the world is, and what consciousness is.

>

> Very correctly put. The experential understanding which our sages

and

> Rishis have had is available to each one of us and requires some

> preparation and guidance. Part of the preparation is being in good

> company, reading scriptures and reflecting on them etc. You have so

> wonderfully articulated your vision. As you have taken the first

step

> which must have come after application of discrimination of what is

> transient and what is enduring,I am sure a journey well begun will

> fulfill itself well.

>

> I quite enjoyed this brief exchange we have had. Many thanks for

the

> opportunity.

>

> Warm regards and Many thousand Namaskarams to all Advaitins

> Sridhar

[Guest guest]

Dear Harry,

 

You asked: "Incidentally, has the Indian publisher, of the book from which

this quote was taken, begun republishing this volume? I assume the quote was

taken from the large book of conversations with Atmananda, the conversations

that were noted down by his friend/disciple Nitya."

 

Preparations for republication are, I believe, in hand. Meanwhile the

complete 'Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda' may be dowloaded

as a fully indexed PDF file from my website - see

www.advaita.org.uk/modern.htm#atmananda_notes

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote:

Dear Harry,

 

You asked: "Incidentally, has the Indian publisher, of the book from which

this quote was taken, begun republishing this volume? I assume the quote was

taken from the large book of conversations with Atmananda, the conversations

that were noted down by his friend/disciple Nitya."

 

Preparations for republication are, I believe, in hand. Meanwhile the

complete 'Notes on Spiritual Discourses of Shri Atmananda' may be dowloaded

as a fully indexed PDF file from my website - see

www.advaita.org.uk/modern.htm#atmananda_notes

 

Best wishes,

 

Dennis

 

Dear Dennis,

 

what a sweet man you are.

 

I have already copied the pdf file of "Notes on Spiritual Discourses into my

documents in my computer. And, what is more, I have already begun reading them.

 

Does he not have an incomparable style? I have read his Tattwa Samhita many

times, and I find his unedited, conversational exposition to be warm, friendly,

inviting and clear like a still pool.

 

Dennis, thank you.

 

Love

 

Harry

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin/

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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