Guest guest Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote: > > > RV 10.177. > > pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti > manasAvipashcitaH | > samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti > vedhasaH || > pataMgo vAcaM manasA bibharti tAM gandharvo.avadad > garbheantaH | > > > May I please remind people of my earlier posting, #6, > in this series. Remember the three meanings > Adhibhautic: regarding the external world > Adhidaivic: regarding divine beings > Adhiyatmic: regarding spiritual truths > But remember also that the three meanings are > distinguished solely for the purpose of explanation. > In essence the perception of the physical sun as it > rises, the rising of the sun of inspiration in our > `inner space' and the all-pervading spiritual sun is > but a single event known in its fullness or fruition: > Recall too Yaska's Nirukta; yajnadaivate pushpaphale > devatadhyAtme vA | > > Griffith's translation of X.177 is as follows: > > 1. The sapient with their spirit and their mind behold > the Bird adorned with all an Asura's magic might. > Sages observe him in the ocean's inmost depth: the > wise disposers seek the station of his rays. > 2 The flying Bird bears Speech within his spirit: erst > the Gandharva in the womb pronounced it: > And at the seat of sacrifice the sages cherish this > radiant, heavenly-bright invention. > 3 I saw the Herdsman, him who never resteth, > approaching and departing on his pathways. > He, clothed in gathered and diffusive splendour, > within the worlds continually travels. > > Now may I please ask the Sanskritists on this site for > help. This is the only hymn in the RgVeda dedicated > to MAyAbheda. Amazingly, to me, I have found very > little interest in this hymn in the books I have read. > Yet to me it is full of possibility; maybe too much > personal interpretation is going on. Namaste, Ken-ji You have a gold mine here! I shall take time to carefully read your post. But here is a quick first reaction.The word 'patamga' occurs in the same context in ShatashlokI (shloka No.51, whose first two lines I quote below). And you can see Shankara must have had RV X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note the identity of words): taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato mAyayAktaM patamgaM buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM vedhasas-taM / tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self pashyanti : discover buddhyA : by their wisdom patamgaM : the individual soul mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray, reflected, parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of consciousness. Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the individual soul , because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall. pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti manasAvipashcitaH | samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate marIcInAmpadamichanti vedhasaH || vipashcitaH : Those who see it right pashyanti : discover patamgaM : the individual soul asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric mAyA. kavayaH : The wise vicakSate : see through antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays. Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti" into the above interpretation. Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest you may explore whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes sense in the whole hymn 177. PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: >> > You have a gold mine here! And we are the only two miners it would seem. One group member said early on that he was not interested in going to such depth into this subject so i apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get over-excited. With Sruti as our light let us proceed. It is as if we are two similar birds on the same tree both enjoying the fruit with, maybe, Sunderji watching. As I suggested last post to you, it does seem as if some subtle string-pulling is going on and now we have the link to your ShatashlokI posting. As with yourself, I will have to go through your posting later today ( I have to visit a friend who has had MS for 20 years and whose wife died suddenly last year, at the age of 51, and on whom he was dependent.) When I first looked at X.177. 'pataMga' was one of the mysteries, was it the name of the poet, of the sun, of a bird or some flying insect, how does horse become a meaning ? I settled on a translation as 'falcon'. In this I had the image of an individual soul that soared high, possessed great speed and would swoop with great precision on its food, the Sruti, rather than circle gracefully like a vulture which feeds off the dead carcasses of others' killings. Of course such imagery is located in difference but it was a help at the time. 'Falcon' gives the image of an independent spirit and this appears in the other hymn that uses the word I.163 which I post below, and which is clearly the atman-brahman of later understanding: pataMga RV.I.163. rishi: DIrghatamas deity: eulogy of the horse metre: trishTup 6. aatmaánaM te mánasaaraád ajaanaam avó divaá patáyantam pataMgám | shíro apashyam pathíbhiH sugébhir areNúbhir jéhamaanam patatrí || I.163.6 ‘Thyself from far I recognized in spirit,-a Bird that from below flew through the heaven. I saw thy head still soaring, striving upward by paths unsoiled by dust, pleasant to travel.’ I noticed in your post that using your knowledge of quantum theory, you have managed to construct a 'Non-locality Time Slip Device' to break the code on my barrier that I had placed in the 4th Century BC for our Time Machine. As we are two minds in one in this adventure I have delighted in following you and offer for some additional thoughts the following from the Brahma Sutras: In the following, the first reference is to the BS itself. The second gives the page number and the line in the Vani Vilas Press edition of ‘The Work of Sri Shankaracharya, pub. 1910. A book that I do not have but I give it here in case anyone has access to a copy.) BS PataMga: II.1.9 Q 300.19 449.16 III.2.9 (Q) 577.11 704.14 III..3.31 667.8 815.10 II.1.9 In his commentary Shankara directs us to Gaudapada’s kArika I.16 ‘The moment the individual soul is aroused from the beginningless slumber of mAyA, that very moment he realizes the non-dual condition which is beyond birth, dream and sleep. III.2.9 BS states: ‘But the same ( soul is awakened); because of action, remembrance, Sruti and precept.’ Shankara’s commentary includes: ‘But one soul is distinguished from others in point of specific works and knowledge. Perhaps man will not be able to make this distinction between soul and soul, but God is; just as the flamingo is reported to be able to separate milk from water when the two are mixed together. Besides, the comparison of the soul with a drop of water is not apt at all; because we have repeatedly pointed out that the soul is not different from the highest Atman; but it is the latter which on account of its connection with the upAdhis is only metaphorically kn own as the soul. And it is the difference in the upAdhis again which accounts for the difference between on soul and another.’ BS III.3.31 ‘(The path) cannot (be connected) as a rule to all (the vidyAs; for in this way there will be) no contradiction; (this is known) from Sruti and inference (ie. smRti).’ Shankara comments: ‘We have seen that the path of the gods has some meaning with reference to saguna vidyAs but has no meaning with reference to the nirguna AtmavidyA.’ Although the content of the commentary is of the journey along the different ‘paths’ I cannot find, not having the Sanskrit, where Shankara uses this in the commentary. (Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if one is available.) Just fancy Shankara having such a clear love of and knowledge in RV.X.177 when he composed shloka 51. Wonderful. Brilliant. Maybe he is sitting in our tree, watching with a smile. May I jump further forward to the Siva Sutras with the prayer to SaMkara, the Supreme Awareness [saMkaraM caitanyam: Sam (the bliss of revelation of the supreme non-dualism) Karoti (brings about ) iti SankaraH ie. SaMkara is one who brings about the bliss of the revelation of the supreme non-dualism.] Jaideva Singh translates the Sloka as: 'That consciousness of SaMkara is ever visctorious which in its wholeness is non-dual in reality though having an appearance of duality, from which the class of Rudra and Kshetrajna springs and in which it comes to rest, which is the fundamental Reality ( yat tattvam), from which bursts forth into view the universe, whose form is this universe, from whose unimpeded Free Will ever leaps forth his divine power which is a mass of bliss, bringing about the unsurpassed, immortal spanda piciple (the primal creative pulsation).' I think we are going to have to stay close together in this journey into the gold mine as I keep seeing diamonds in the walls. Thank you for your good company Ken Knight >And you can see Shankara > must have had RV > X.177 in his mind when he composed shloka 51 (Note > the identity of > words): > > taj jnAH pashyanti buddhyA parama-balavato > mAyayAktaM patamgaM > buddhAvantah samudre pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM > vedhasas-taM / > > tat-jnAH vedhasaH : Knowers of the Self > pashyanti : discover > buddhyA : by their wisdom > patamgaM : the individual soul > mAyayAktaM : made to appear by mAyA > pratiphalita-marIcyAspadaM :as only a ray, > reflected, > parama-balavataH : of the omnipotent Self > antaH samudre buddhau : in the ocean of > consciousness. > > Note that the word patamga is interpreted as the > individual soul , > because it falls off -- the root 'pat' to fall. > > pataMgamaktamasurasya mAyayA hRdA pashyanti > manasAvipashcitaH | > samudre antaH kavayo vi cakSate > marIcInAmpadamichanti > vedhasaH || > > vipashcitaH : Those who see it right > pashyanti : discover > patamgaM : the individual soul > asurasya mAyayA aktaM : as made to appear by Asuric > mAyA. > kavayaH : The wise > vicakSate : see through > antah samudre : in the ocean of consciousness > marIcInAM padaM : the unique status of the rays. > > Now I do not know how to get the "vedhasaH ichanti" > into the above > interpretation. > > Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest > you may explore > whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes > sense in the whole > hymn 177. > > PraNAms to all students of Rg Veda > profvk > > > > > ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Namaste Kenji, Only watching in awe! In your first posting, you do mention Patanga as the Rishi of the Hymn. Shankara's Complete Works are online at URL: http://www.brahmasutra.iitk.ac.in/framepage.htm Regards, Sunder advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote: > --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > > When I first looked at X.177. 'pataMga' was one of the > mysteries, was it the name of the poet, of the sun, of > a bird or some flying insect, how does horse become a > meaning ? > > (Note to me. I must download Sanskrit commentary if > one is available.) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Dear Ken, You said: "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One group member said early on that he was not interested in going to such depth into this subject so i apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get over-excited." You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so much here. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts would require many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simply skimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I truly hope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who are giving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have some comments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that there are other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of the months of effort that Ken must have put into this? Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2004 Report Share Posted June 18, 2004 Dear Ken, The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one of the silent majority and also a new member of just one week. Like Dennis, I very much enjoy the enthusiasm that thrills through your every post. I also appreciate the time and knowledge required to bring such a wealth of material together. I am sure the weakness is mine when I say that I do not always follow what is the underlying issue you are attempting to bring to the surface in your many references and inclusions of material, verses and translations in each mail. There is so much in each mail that it would take me a week study each one fully, and then I would only be scratching the surface, I suspect. So, a little guidance as to your primary focus and aim in each mail would help me to know where best to focus my attention and to appreciate what parts are background context. But that may just be me, as I said above. Many thanks for what you write and the time you give to doing so. Best wishes, Peter Dennis Waite [dwaite] 18 June 2004 22:06 advaitin Re: June topic: mAyA in the Vedas: RV. X..177 Dear Ken, You said: "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One group member said early on that he was not interested in going to such depth into this subject so i apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get over-excited." You are making me feel guilty! The problem for me is that there is so much here. In order to do justice to the topic, each of your main posts would require many hours of study with dictionaries and websites open. I am simply skimming the academic bits and enjoying your writing and enthusiasm. I truly hope that there are others apart from Profvk, Sunderji and Adiji who are giving your posts the attention that they deserve. Could we not have some comments from one or two of the silent majority to reassure us that there are other appreciative eyes and ears out there and in recognition of the months of effort that Ken must have put into this? Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 --- Dennis Waite <dwaite wrote: > > You are making me feel guilty! Good Morning Dennis, I am feeling guilty for making you feel guilty. We English are World Champions at feeling guilty. I am also feeling guilty because today is National Quiet Day here in the UK....we used to have a Sabbath but now we have one quiet day a year and soon it will be one in the decade.........and I should be on my way to Southwark Cathedral for a meditation time. So I am typing quietly while mentally singing the refrain from The Incredible String Band's song: 'Maya, Maya, all this world is but a play, be thou the joyful player.' They don't sing them like that anymore!!!! Now, people keep referring to the amount of work put into these posts. There is not much work involved as I love to study in my own peculiar way. Also, I am the original, anti-social, grumpy old man. 14 years ago, at the age of 50, I declared to family and friends that henceforth I would go to one party a year and spend only a little time in social chit-chat about house prices, holidays and babies at family and other gatherings. Books, quiet reflection, being with my wife and playing with our dog is bliss; parties are not. Thanks for your mail which initiated Peter's. As a teacher, I do not mean that as a 'spiritual teacher', I work best when people ask questions and I hope that at some stage this will happen. Also, I know that out there in cyber space there are people who will have the insight to answer questions where I fail. I am just a sounding board. Finally on the 'guilty theme' I did feel great uncertainty about taking on this subject in the awareness of the South Asian core membership of this group. I respect the tradition that would bar me from such a study but have taken my authority to go ahead firstly from Anandamayee Ma and secondly from a strange coincidence a few years ago that I will not detail here now. Finally, finally, the Rgveda itself. The hymns come out of the deepest sounds in the universe which the rishis sought out. My words skim the surface, the rishis plunge into the depths and it is only through their words that we can dive deep: RV IV.50.1 yás tastámbha sáhasaa ví jmó ántaan bR'haspátis triSadhasthó ráveNa | tám pratnaása R'Sayo diídhyaanaaH puró vípraa dadhire mandrájihvam || ‘Him who with might hath propped earth's ends, who sitteth in threefold seat, Brhaspati, with thunder, Him of the pleasant tongue have ancient sages, deep-thinking, holy singers, set before them.’ Have a happy National Quiet Day, Ken ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 Namaste, I am not a miner; perhaps I'm more like the canary that expires from something powerful but unseen/unknown. At the same time I sense that something significant is going on. Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or phrase that provides some illumination--although I can't find the quotation, I remember that several ji's have said that if someone can find one word of illumination in [an essay] then the information is justified. As for the rest, I have a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of your posts, and I will return to them as time allows. For those who don't keep such a file, they will be able to search for the topic in the archives. Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your posts. They are packed with valuable information--and they seem elegant and poetic. Thank you so much for providing this information. One of the silent majority, Bob Freedman Peter M wrote: > Dear Ken, > > > > The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to speak up - as I am one of > the silent majority > > You said: > "And we are the only two miners it would seem. One > group member said early on that he was not interested > in going to such depth into this subject so i > apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do get > over-excited." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 --- Bob Freedman <rlfreed wrote: > At the same > time I sense that > something significant is going on. Namaste Bob, That's the great thing about life isn't it? The day we find out what's going on you can be sure ignorance is waiting with its cloak so it's probably better that we stay with the sense of mystery. Dennis having encouraged the 'silent majority' means the tree is getting quite populated. Enjoy the fruits, Ken Knight > > Kenji, I read the posts and often find a word or > phrase that provides > some illumination--although I can't find the > quotation, I remember that > several ji's have said that if someone can find one > word of illumination > in [an essay] then the information is justified. As > for the rest, I > have a special "Maya in the Vedas folder" for all of > your posts, and I > will return to them as time allows. For those who > don't keep such a > file, they will be able to search for the topic in > the archives. > > Therefore, I encourage you not to water-down your > posts. They are > packed with valuable information--and they seem > elegant and poetic. > > Thank you so much for providing this information. > > One of the silent majority, > > Bob Freedman > > > > > Peter M wrote: > > Dear Ken, > > > > > > > > The post from Dennis, below, has prompted me to > speak up - as I am one of > > the silent majority > > > > You said: > > "And we are the only two miners it would seem. > One > > group member said early on that he was not > interested > > in going to such depth into this subject so i > > apologise if this is getting too detailed but I do > get > > over-excited." > > > ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Mail is new and improved - Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2004 Report Share Posted June 19, 2004 --- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: > Let me think about it. In the meantime, I suggest > you may explore > whether 'patamga' as 'the individual soul' makes > sense in the whole > hymn 177. Namaste Professor, This took me off in two directions. One resulted in the posting that I have just made. The second had me diving into Panini's Dhattupatha which produced a couple of interesting leads. I will look further at that tomorrow. On the way, however, I did come across another translation of X.177. It is by Swami Sharvananda from the collection of essays 'The Cultural Heritage of India' pub.1937 His essay is entitled 'The Vedas and their Religious Teachings. In this is a sub-section 'Personal and Impersonal Godhead and Soul.' Just as we have done he starts with the nAsadIya and purusha sUktas and then coincidentally goes to X.177....so we must be doing something right with this study. His translation is clumsy but shows the influence of later thoughts on reincarnation. The following is a direct quote with his brackets: 'The sages in their minds realise that the Bird ( all-pervasive God) is covered up by the mAyA of the mighty One. The seers describe it as happening in the Ocean (infinity of being); they all feel desirous to reach the supreme Abode of life.....I saw the herdsman (individual soul) who never falls, but sometimes near and sometimes far, is traversing various paths. Sometimes he wears many clothes together and sometimes he puts them on severally, and thus he is going and coming to this world again and again.' There's another point of view for you. After following the same path as us into RV I.164 and the two birds he concludes that 'These passages clearly indicate that the individual soul is immortal and transmigrates in various ways to different planes of existence. Further, the identity of the individual soul with the cosmic spirit has been revealed in two well known hymns...' He goes on to refer to RV.IV.26. 1-2 and RV. X. 125.3. I would like to challenge some of his conclusions as they are based in later development in the Upanishads, especially as he writes of the delusory power of mAyA in the Rgveda, but I thought that a different 'voice' should be heard here. More anon. Ken Knight ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote:> There's another point of view for you. > After following the same path as us into RV I.164 and > the two birds he concludes that 'These passages > clearly indicate that the individual soul is immortal > and transmigrates in various ways to different planes > of existence. Further, the identity of the individual > soul with the cosmic spirit has been revealed in two > well known hymns...' > He goes on to refer to RV.IV.26. 1-2 and RV. X. 125.3.> ===== Namaste Ken-ji, Another reference that should draw attention is : RV 6:47:18 " indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [indra goes about in many forms by his mayas (magical powers).] which is also repeated in Brihadaranyaka upanishad 2:5:19 (Gaudapada cites this also in Karika 3:24). [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda refers to repeated births until the Self is realized.] I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to be limited to the Samhita section only, or should include upanishads also. Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 --- Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote: > > Another reference that should draw attention > is : RV 6:47:18 > > " indro mAyAbhiH pururUpa Iyate " , [indra goes > about in many forms > by his mayas (magical powers).] Namaste Sunderji, You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using this one after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on it next. Maybe I will put in a general posting that lists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we go much further > [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda > refers to > repeated births until the Self is realized.] Can you please be a bit more specific on this one as he is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this an underlying theme do you think? I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearly that those with discrimination realise the cycle of birth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda, maybe, is appearance only. It all depends if we can hear the hymns following Yaska's directions. > > I also wonder if 'Maya in the Vedas' need to > be limited to > the Samhita section only, or should include > upanishads also. At least 99% of the time in the samhita portion please as there are only so many hours in a day and at the end of June I will be off to the mountains for a few days. Also, I believe that next month's topic will be founded in the Upanishads and I do not want to intrude on that. So now it will be on to Indra's magic, Ken Knight > ===== ‘From this Supreme Self are all these, indeed, breathed forth.’ Read only the mail you want - Mail SpamGuard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 advaitin, ken knight <anirvacaniya> wrote: > You are jumping ahead of me. I had intended using this > one after a look at the Rbhus but will now post on it > next. Maybe I will put in a general posting that > lists all the uses of mAyA in the Rgveda before we go > much further > > > [Rishi Vamadeva of the 4th Mandala of Rigveda > > refers to > > repeated births until the Self is realized.] > > Can you please be a bit more specific on this one as > he is responsible for all 58 sUktas. Or is this an > underlying theme do you think? > I think that X.177 sets the matter out quite clearly > that those with discrimination realise the cycle of > birth and death, a coming and going. The mAyAbheda, > maybe, is appearance only. Namaste Kenji, Sorry that I 'jumped' too early. It was not intentional, and I did not mean to disturb your sequence of postings.. It was mentioned only because you alluded to Mandalas 1 & 10 as being 'later additions'. The theme of Mandala 4 is not in fact re-incarnation, but the seeds are evident: ref. 1:7; 2:17; 26:1; 27:1. Of course, your insight may well vary. Regards, Sunder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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