Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Namaste Harsha-ji, >What is the essential Advaita teaching? It is simply >that Atman and ParamAtman are identical. This is not >an intellectual understanding but an actual experience >and self-recognition. >When experience and the experiencer merge consciously, >the state that is devoid of all sorrow is known as >one's own Self and Being as Pure Existence and Pure >Consciousness ... You are not allowed to make things so simple on this list! If the truth were so simple, what need would there be for scholars? :-) Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 --- Benjamin <orion777ben wrote: > > > Namaste Harsha-ji, > > >What is the essential Advaita teaching? It is > simply > >that Atman and ParamAtman are identical. This is > not > >an intellectual understanding but an actual > experience > >and self-recognition. > > >When experience and the experiencer merge > consciously, > >the state that is devoid of all sorrow is known as > >one's own Self and Being as Pure Existence and Pure > >Consciousness ... > > > You are not allowed to make things so simple on this > list! > > If the truth were so simple, what need would there > be for scholars? :-) > > > Hari Om! > Benjamin Dearest Benjamin Ji: I have learned a lot on this list and have come to appreciate the depth of Upanishads and our Sages. It is like a beautiful song that one can enjoy hearing again and again. Simplicity and Unity of the Truth is perfectly compatible with complexity and diversity of perception. So I enjoy listening to the discourses on this list (with breaks, of course). Simple Vedic statements like "Know That by which everything else is known" are like huges waves of beauty and I enjoy being washed by them. With gratitude, Love to all Hasha ===== /join Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile./maildemo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Hello Harsha and Benjamin, I have been a member of the Advaitin forum for some time in the past year and part of this year -- a period in which many spiritual experiences flooded over me and I sought and found that Advaita and also Buddhism are simply different explanations of truths which can be un-covered by anyone who makes the right effort. In my experiences I have gone through the chief three positions of Advaita, they all came to me naturally in various experiences after and during meditation. One way of seeing the Truth is the way Humanity currently sees it. This is Vyavaharika or Relational Truth. We identify with the body only, and because of this objects appear to be other than ourselves. We identify with that which we (our egoes) have control of, and that is the body. Vyavaharika is currently slowly fading and Ajati and Eka-Jiva Vadas are slowly emerging in the matrix of human consciousness Once one admits that one´s Soul or Consciousness (Jiva) is not limited to the body, but is the Consciousness itself, one has recognized the Jiva. Once one further admits that the Deity, God, controls and therefore is identical to the Jiva -- the Jiva is a reflection of God or Brahman -- then one has understood the Atman. Advaita is the knowledge that Atman and Brahman are not two but one. This has numerous implications which when examined may lead to a broadening of the way the world is seen. One of these implications is to admit that there is only one Consciousness (you) and all the other Jivas are simple reflections or projections from you. Better said, there is only the Atman, which is individual Consciousness, and this Consciousness projects a body, a world and an ego. This explains re-incarnation quite sactisfactorily. Then the whole world is seen as a projection of one´s own Self or Brahman. This is said by the Buddhist Vijnanavadins also. I do not, as a researcher and meditator, find discrepancies between the Buddhism of Vijnanavada and the Advaita Vedanta of many such as Shankaracharya and Ramana Maharshi. The only difference is that one postulates a Deity (Brahman) which manifests itself as the World, Body and Ego. The other postulates the non-existence of such Deity (Brahman) but does not deny that the world is unreal and that everything is a superimposition in Consciousness. Namaste, Frederico - "Harsha" <harshaimtm <advaitin> Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:39 PM Re: The essential Advaita Teaching > --- Benjamin <orion777ben wrote: > > > > > > Namaste Harsha-ji, > > > > >What is the essential Advaita teaching? It is > > simply > > >that Atman and ParamAtman are identical. This is > > not > > >an intellectual understanding but an actual > > experience > > >and self-recognition. > > > > >When experience and the experiencer merge > > consciously, > > >the state that is devoid of all sorrow is known as > > >one's own Self and Being as Pure Existence and Pure > > >Consciousness ... > > > > > > You are not allowed to make things so simple on this > > list! > > > > If the truth were so simple, what need would there > > be for scholars? :-) > > > > > > Hari Om! > > Benjamin > > Dearest Benjamin Ji: > > I have learned a lot on this list and have come to > appreciate the depth of Upanishads and our Sages. It > is like a beautiful song that one can enjoy hearing > again and again. > > Simplicity and Unity of the Truth is perfectly > compatible with complexity and diversity of > perception. So I enjoy listening to the discourses on > this list (with breaks, of course). > > Simple Vedic statements like "Know That by which > everything else is known" are like huges waves of > beauty and I enjoy being washed by them. > > With gratitude, > > Love to all > Hasha > > ===== > /join > > > > > > > > > > > > Take Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile./maildemo > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Namaste Frederico , I agree with you completely. OK, off to dental surgery... Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 - "Frederico Sigaud Gonzales" <fsg > One of these implications is to admit that there is only one > Consciousness (you) and all the other Jivas are simple reflections or > projections from you. Better said, there is only the Atman, which is > individual Consciousness, and this Consciousness projects a body, a world > and an ego. Isn't this solipsism? Hari Om Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Namaste, Frederico said: > One of these implications is to admit that there is only one > Consciousness (you) and all the other Jivas are simple reflections or > projections from you. Better said, there is only the Atman, which is > individual Consciousness, and this Consciousness projects a body, a world > and an ego. Ranjeet said: Isn't this solipsism? I say: Yes! Advaita DOES logically imply solipsism in some sense. The trick is to understand precisely in what sense. Not the run-of-the-mill sense. I leave the floor open for discussion... Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Hello Ranjeet, Yes it is like Solipsism. In fact Solipsism is a copy of the Advaitin Eka-Jiva Vada. Perhaps the people who started Solipsism had the same experiences that some Advaitins who advocated Eka-Jiva Vada did. "I am myself reflected on you. When I look at you I can see me; look at me and you will see yourself." Namaste, Fred - "Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch <advaitin> Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:40 PM Re: The essential Advaita Teaching > > - > "Frederico Sigaud Gonzales" <fsg > > > One of these implications is to admit that there is only one > > Consciousness (you) and all the other Jivas are simple reflections or > > projections from you. Better said, there is only the Atman, which is > > individual Consciousness, and this Consciousness projects a body, a world > > and an ego. > > > Isn't this solipsism? > > Hari Om Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Hello Benjamin, From my experiences the world may be seen to be a valid projection of one´s deep subconscious (vasanas). Just after meditation one day I went out down my street thinking "it would be lovely if I lived in Switzerland and had a blonde girlfriend". Just as I thought this, I looked to the other side of the street and there was a blonde girl with a sweater. The sweater was red and had the white cross in it (the flag of Switzerland). I began to laugh. Several of these experiences have happened to me. Usually after meditation. The Universe is a hologram. Each small drop (each Jiva) creates and projects the whole thing, all other Jivas, world and body. But each one does so unconsciously -- you can´t control the projection. This is where surrender to Atman comes in. ;-) Namaste, Frederico - "Benjamin" <orion777ben <advaitin> Wednesday, July 14, 2004 3:43 PM Re: The essential Advaita Teaching > > Namaste, > > Frederico said: > > > One of these implications is to admit that there is only one > > Consciousness (you) and all the other Jivas are simple reflections or > > projections from you. Better said, there is only the Atman, which is > > individual Consciousness, and this Consciousness projects a body, a world > > and an ego. > > Ranjeet said: > > Isn't this solipsism? > > > I say: > > Yes! Advaita DOES logically imply solipsism in some sense. > The trick is to understand precisely in what sense. > Not the run-of-the-mill sense. > I leave the floor open for discussion... > > Hari Om! > Benjamin > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Namaste, Frederico Gonzales wrote: >I do not, as a researcher and meditator, find discrepancies between the Buddhism of >Vijnanavada and the Advaita Vedanta of many such as Shankaracharya and >Ramana Maharshi. The only difference is that one postulates a Deity (Brahman) >which manifests itself as the World, Body and Ego. The other postulates the >non-existence <of such Deity (Brahman) but does not deny that the world is >unreal and that everything is a superimposition in Consciousness. Wiser men (than this lowly listener), having vijnanam, have clearly maintained that this difference is of crucial importance. Teachers such as Adishankaracharya have expressed many indications that this difference makes worlds of difference and were steadfast in proclaiming the truth of Brahman. Confer the Mahavakyas, the great statements of the truth. So consider the possibility thatthe declarations of the great teachers of Advaita just might so. Warm Regards, Kenneth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Namaste Fredji, In my humble opinion, advaita and solipsism are not alike. The venue for solipsism in advaita is at the vyAvahArika level. At this level, advaita advocates the existence of external 'objects'. What and how you perceive this so-called 'object' is another story, which Shri Chittaranjanji would be exploring. When ranjeet looks at Fredji, he sees Fredji. If ranjeet says that he sees ranjeet, then no doubt ranjeet is a mystic, not a vedAntin. And at the moment this ranjeet would like to remain just a vedAntin. :-) Hari Om - "Frederico Sigaud Gonzales" <fsg <advaitin> Friday, July 16, 2004 1:20 AM Re: The essential Advaita Teaching > Hello Ranjeet, > > Yes it is like Solipsism. In fact Solipsism is a copy of the > Advaitin Eka-Jiva Vada. > Perhaps the people who started Solipsism had the same experiences > that some Advaitins who advocated Eka-Jiva Vada did. > "I am myself reflected on you. When I look at you I can see me; > look at me and you will see yourself." > Namaste, > Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Note from the List Moderators: We welcome you and look forward to your active participation in the list discussions. What you have presented here is quite appropriate and relevant and please keep up with your good work. (WHEN YOU SEND YOUR REPLY TO A POST, PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE MESSAGE FOR WHICH YOU ARE REPLYING. yOU ARE WELCOME TO CUT AND PASTE APPROPRIATE RELEVANT PORTIONS. THIS REQUEST IS NOT JUST FOR YOU AND IT IS FOR ALL MEMBERS AND ESPECIALLY THE NEW MEMBERS. WE HAVE REMOVED THE UNNECESSARY PART OF THE MESSAGE THAT YOU ARE RESPONDING.) Hello Kenneth, I only intended to put my own view about this. As an initiated Buddhist of both Nyingma and Gelug traditions, I hope I am not unwelcome here. I am also a meditator and a researcher, and I have always felt very drawn to Advaita. Some Buddhist Lamas may tell you there is little practical difference between Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta, although there is much difference in the philosophical outlooks, the two want to achieve the same goal: Moksha (Liberation). This is also true of Jainism for some extent. Nevertheless, obviously the implications of the existence of Brahman are enormous at the Vyavaharika level and cannot be disregarded. However, taking the statement that "Brahman is Pure Consciousness only", it is well reconcilable with the statement that "The Enlightened Mind is Pure Consciousness Only, without nothing apart from it, it is only Aware." This last statement is frequently made by my Buddhist teacher. Anyway, I admit there are huge differences in Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism may be even considered by some to be an offshoot of Advaita Vedanta, since Advaita Vedanta is much older than Buddhism. Namaste, Fred - <kvl1949 > Namaste, > > Frederico Gonzales wrote: > >I do not, as a researcher and meditator, find discrepancies between the Buddhism of >Vijnanavada and the Advaita Vedanta of many such as Shankaracharya and >Ramana Maharshi. The only difference is that one postulates a Deity (Brahman) >which manifests itself as the World, Body and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 (WHEN YOU SEND YOUR REPLY TO A POST, PLEASE DO NOT INCLUDE MESSAGE FOR WHICH YOU ARE REPLYING. yOU ARE WELCOME TO CUT AND PASTE APPROPRIATE RELEVANT PORTIONS. THIS REQUEST IS NOT JUST FOR YOU AND IT IS FOR ALL MEMBERS AND ESPECIALLY THE NEW MEMBERS. WE HAVE REMOVED THE UNNECESSARY PART OF THE MESSAGE THAT YOU ARE RESPONDING.) Hello Ranjeet, I agree with you. At the Vyavaharika level there are external objects -- the way one perceives and interprets these objects is another matter. Thank you for the clarification, you have shown me perfectly that Solipsism only lies similar to Advaita Vedanta at the Vyavaharika level. I am currently also not exploring these alternative interpretations of external objects because I was afraid it might lead me to mental problems. So now I am very much only Fred, and I like to continue to be so! Regards, Fred - "Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch > Namaste Fredji, > > In my humble opinion, advaita and solipsism are not alike. > The venue for solipsism in advaita is at the vyAvahArika level. At this > level, advaita advocates the existence of external 'objects'. What and how Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Namaste Frederico, >Just after meditation one day I went out down >my street thinking "it would be lovely if I lived in >Switzerland and had a blonde girlfriend". Blondes are overrated. Even Arafat has a blonde wife! Some are very nice, though. However, I see many more Indian and Chinese women who are close to my ideal. What is the connection to Advaita? Probably nothing. >Several of these experiences have happened to me. >Usually after meditation. This may not be your subconscious *controlling* the phenomena but rather *anticipating* the phenomena. I have had uncanny experiences too. I suspect some kind of mental telepathy exists. Yet I don't care enough to read much about it. Ramana says it's spiritually useless. >The Universe is a hologram. I used that a lot in my paper. Maybe we'd better call it a HOLY-gram! :-)) >projects the whole thing, all other Jivas, world and body. >But each onedoes so unconsciously -- you can´t control >the projection. Yes, one of the points in my paper is that the simplest and hence most elegant theory of the 'world' is that it consists of sequences of *coordinated* perceptions in different minds and nothing else (no matter). The material hypothesis adds nothing; it is useless and unverifiable. I agree that there is a lack of control. I think that many of those who don't like 'subjective idealism' are fooled by the word 'subjective' into thinking that I can create the world of my imagination. Of course I do not believe this. And if I do, then please take me to a hospital. Hari Om! Benjamin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2004 Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 Namaste Fredji, Actually my point was that Solipsism can be compared to advaita only at the vyAvahArika level and that even there they are not the same. :-) Hari Om - "Frederico Sigaud Gonzales" <fsg Thank you for the clarification, you have shown me perfectly that > Solipsism only lies similar to Advaita Vedanta at the Vyavaharika level. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2004 Report Share Posted July 17, 2004 Hello Benjamin, you wrote: Blondes are overrated. Even Arafat has a blonde wife! Some are very nice, though. However, I see many more Indian and Chinese women who are close to my ideal. What is the connection to Advaita? Probably nothing. The connection between blonde women and Advaita is surely nothing lol. I have one friend who says that the whole Vedic system including Advaita was implanted in India by blonde ´Aryans´ who migrated from some other star system. Anyway I don´t believe this and this is not important to real Advaita and Self-Knowledge. In spite of this, blondes are my thing. I can´t get over it. The more blonde they are, the more I feel attracted. Sprinkles on their faces almost make me tremble in ecstasy. LOL. you wrote: This may not be your subconscious *controlling* the phenomena but rather *anticipating* the phenomena. I have had uncanny experiences too. I suspect some kind of mental telepathy exists. Yet I don't care enough to read much about it. Ramana says it's spiritually useless. Yes I have also taken into account the possibility that it is Intuition perceiving things and then my thoughts being shaped accordingly. In this case, my Spiritual Intuition would have perceived a blonde girl with a Swiss sweater walking up my street and this triggered the thought about swiss blondes in me. It´s funny how we´re controlled by a Higher Power, even when it is not different from ourselves, but we are not conscious of it. >The Universe is a hologram. I used that a lot in my paper. Maybe we'd better call it a HOLY-gram! :-)) Yes : ) >projects the whole thing, all other Jivas, world and body. >But each onedoes so unconsciously -- you can´t control >the projection. Yes, one of the points in my paper is that the simplest and hence most elegant theory of the 'world' is that it consists of sequences of *coordinated* perceptions in different minds and nothing else (no matter). The material hypothesis adds nothing; it is useless and unverifiable. That is exactly what my experiences have lead me to conclude. The assumption of a real organized external world cannot be proven because all only PERCEIVE the world. This lead me to further conclude that the external world, being a perception simply, and not really real or independent from the subject, in fact EMANATES from the subject. This explains everything, life, re-birth , etc. I accept reincarnation on the basis that there is no continuity of consciousness between one incarnation and other unless the person is a Jnani. I agree that there is a lack of control. I think that many of those who don't like 'subjective idealism' are fooled by the word 'subjective' into thinking that I can create the world of my imagination. Of course I do not believe this. And if I do, then please take me to a hospital. I agree with you. The world is not created from the imagination but rather projected from the Atman (Self). This is the quintessence of Ramana´s teaching. The Atman Itself is beyond the world, it projects the world and time. It also projects many egoes living in this world. I assume this as truth until the contrary is proven to me : ) But of course the Atman is not personal. It is rather the neutral Source of everything. To That I pay my devotion. Aum. Fred Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Links Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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