Waking & Dream - An objective outlook

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

In shruti-s, one can see various methodologies have been adopted to teach

Atmaikatva vAda. Our advaita sampradAya vidha-s have gracefully brought

out these methods & clealy explained the intrecacies of these

methodologies. adhyArOpa apavAda is the principal method adopted by

shrutis, in that we can see subdivisions like avasthA traya prakriya

(analysation of our three states i.e. waking, dream & sleep states),

kArya-kAraNa (cause & effect) prakriya, pancha kOsha (five sheaths)

prakriya etc. etc. Since in this moth's main topic *Real & Unreal*, avastha

traya holds the key position, this is a humble attempt to analyse our

waking & dream states from an objective view point without any subjective

attachment to the waker.

 

Since our childhood we've been invariably experiencing waking, dream &

sleep states. Despite occurrences of these three states at utmost

regularity, we are without our knowledge giving more reality to our waking

state when compared to the other two states!! why this is so?? why this

special preference to waking state when we are equally experiencing all the

three states with the same degree of reality. Having said this, I am not

denying the fact that the waking state is the one in which alone real

action is possible & all our practical interests lie. But vedAnta

declares that life to be truly understood a consideration of the other two

states as well which are as indispensable to our life as waking. Hence

waking state should not be permitted to dominate over the other states

which are entirely independent of it.

 

Interestingly, frankly speaking, we donot know which state has come first

to us!! is it waking?? I dont think so, coz. in our childhood we've spent

most of our time in sleeping. In our embryo state at mother's womb, we

obviously donot have any connection with our socalled waking world. So,

the question to be asked to ourselves is which avastha we've encountered

first?? is it waking first then due to its vAsana-s dream?? or is it first

sleep then waking or dream?? how can sleep can lead us to waking/dream

state?? How all of a sudden this mind can take control of waking world

when it is conspicuous by its absence in sleep?? Or if we say, it is

waking state that has come first to jIva then naturally question will

arise, how can there be waker & his waking world taken position in jIva??

which of those vAsana's can influence jIva's first cognition of the

waking world?? From where do they (vAsana-s) come in Atman when it is in

its true state?? questions keep on coming from each & every inquisitive

mind & it is never ending.

 

Since, we are the students of shankara's advaita siddhAnta, first we should

see what our parama guru offers in explaining avastha-s. An advaitin can

easily say to all the above questions that these avastha-s are mere

superimposition on our sAkshi svarUpa. Due to avidya, it appears that we

are undergoing these avastha-s in us. But, this is not an abstract answer

to the complex problems, advaitin arrived to this conclusion by closely

scrutinising these avastha-s from sAkshi view point. After objective

analysation of three states, advaitin's intuitive knowledge reveals the

fact that there is no avastha whatsoever to nirvikalpa parabrahman & it is

mere appearance in Atman because of our anAdi avidya.

 

Now, the question is, how can we say all these avastha-s are mere

appearance in Atman when we are clearly experiencing it?? For that

advaitin say, yes, no doubt, we do experience all the three states in day

in day out. But to analyse the futility of these states & to know the

reality of our pure consciousness we should *stand out* of these states &

look at it objectively. We cannot stand-in in any one state & give

arbitrary verdict on other two states. In shAstra jignAsa, for paramArtha

nirNaya this is how we have to analyse it even though this objective

analysation is also from waking state (??!!) we should remember that our

constitutional position is something which transcends these avastha-s.

 

What we should remember here is, when we say this is an enquiry into the

avastha-s, it does not mean that we are simply analysing these avastha-s

'as it is'. Our primary intention here is to realise the true nature of

our Atman who's notional experiences of avastha-s.

 

Waking, sleep & dream states are different from each other, this is in our

experience. But these states donot have independent existence. And if we

check the other two states (dream & sleep) from waker's (vyAvahArika) point

of view, it appears that waker controlling the other two & he has intimate

connection with other two. But in reality there is absolutely no relation

between these states & these states are mere false appearance on our ever

existing nature. A simple logic would suffice to prove that the dream

state is not dependent on waker & his world. To say either the difference

or relation of these states, first & foremost thing is we should have

"common time & space" for all these states. But what is there in our

experience?? The time & space frames applicable to waking state donot get

entry into the dream, like that the time & space frames applicable to the

dream donot get entry into the waking world & no need to mention in deep

sleep state the notion of time & space of both waking & dream states get

ceased without any trace. So, the idea of the succession of the states is

purely waking idea and cannot be logically be extended beyond waking. For

instance, when I say, "after sending this mail to advaitin group, I am

going to attend revenue meeting at conference room" the continuity of the

waking consciousness warrants the sequence in which I am programming the

events i.e. *my writing mail* say around 2 PM & then *going for meeting*

say around 2.30 PM . But please note when I say " I went to bed at 11 pm &

slept till morning", in this I know that I was awake only till eleven &

then my waking is completely ceased, is it not?? All the events of my

waking state are connected one with another as a series in a continuous

flow of time of my waking consciousness & accompanies them as an invariable

condition. My forthcoming memory of these events obviously assumes the

presence of my consciousness during the occurrences of these events. When

I speak on the contrary of my sleeping subsequent to going to bed, if I am

not biased against waking, I must admit that my waking ceased before sleep

began and that my waking consciousness was absent during all the time I

slept. I express indeed my exprience in terms of time and say that my

sleep succeeded my waking. But this sequence is not like of sequence of

events of my writing mail & attending meeting which are taking place in the

waking state in which I am aware of the continuous flow of time throughout

which I feel in the form of duration, my taking note of time or my feeling

of time ceases with waking, and I am not and cannot be conscious of when

waking ends or sleep begins, for sleep is just the condition in which our

intellect ceases to function. With this, we can easily conclude that to

conceive sleep & waking as occuring one after another in the same time

series is completely wrong & this is purely a biased view of waker.

 

There is one more problem in accepting waker & his waking world's influence

on dream. See, the sequence as we think for dream is, from waking state to

sleep & in sleep there is dream. But, as a student of vEdAnta, we know

that there is no waker's mind & his consciousness in sleep. If that is the

case, how can this waker's conscious can get entry without passing the

state of sleep?? is it there in anyone's experience of this big leap of

waker's consciousness from waking world to direct dream land??

 

Now, coming to our age old theory that dreams are the product of

impressions created in waking. Though vyAvaharically we can accept this

theory, while determining our svarUpa this is not a proven fact always.

We often say, "y'day in my sleep I had a nightmare, the impact of that

dream was such that even after I awake, my body was sweating & shivering of

fear. What does it mean?? is it not quite evident that in this case the

dream (nightmare) is kAraNa & sweating & shivering of my waking body is

kArya?? What we have been holding sofar is that waking is kAraNa & dreams

are kArya of waking vAsana...but here this order got reversed is it not??

>From this, if we relook into the sequence, it looks like from kAraNa

(waking) -kArya (dream) happened- then from kArya (nightmare) again kAraNa

(shivering etc. in waking body) took place...is it logical to say like

this??

 

Further, if we say, waking is kAraNa (cause) & it is true (sat) & dream

is the kArya (effect) & is false (asat), it is illogical to say true (sat

/ waking) has given birth to false (asat /dream). Because we cannot say

true cause can give birth to false effect. Unless this problem resolved we

cannot say true waking's vAsana-s causing false or asat dreams. This is

the main objection rised by Sri gaudapAdAchArya in kArika against those who

upholding more reality of waker & his world.

 

Finally, all of this are not just dry logic. This method assumes nothing &

does not call for belief in authenticity & seeks the aid of no special

intuition as such. It is fundamentally based on human experience and

insists that all the three states should be investigated before we can bank

upon the ultimate reality. It simply points out the basic error involved

in speculation which confine the application of reason to the facts of

waking state, while admiiting the practical utility of such speculations

so far as they go, it shows their utter futility and helplessness in

arriving a true science of reality.

 

This avastha traya has shruti reference also. Out of 10 principal

upanishads, prashna, ItarEya, chAndOgya, bruhadAraNyaka have quotes about

avasthA traya. But in mundaka shruti this prakriya (methodology) has been

discussed exclusively based on pure jnAna without any stint of injuctive

statements such as karma & upAsana. Since this mail already getting very

lengthy, I'd just say few words about this very very important upanishat.

Sri GaudapAdAchArya has written kArikA-s on this up. & shankara has

written commentaries on both kArika & upanishads. While commenting on

kArika, shankara says, *vEdAntArtha sArasangrahabhUtamidaM prakaraNa

chatushtayam* ( these four chapters are summary of the essence of all

vEdAntic teaching). While discussing this fundamental issue shruti first

says from adhyArOpa drushti "soyamAtma chatushpAt" subsequently withdraws

this (apavAda) by saying "nAntaH prajna na bahiprajnaM, what remains

finally is Atman & Atman alone. Apart from this, while identifying Atman

in jAgrat & svapna shruti addresses both vishva & tejasa as saptAnga

yEkOnavimshati mukhaha ( 7 faces & 19 faces). Please note there is an

equal treatment to both vishwa & taijasa here by shruti. Interestingly

shankara also in his commentary says samAnam na anyAt (both are same & not

different) about waker & dreamer.

 

The bottom line is this, the three states so called are really no states of

consciousness. In the first place the witnessing principle (sAkshi) in us

which is no other than pure consciousness (shuddha chaitanya), remains

quite unaffected by the appearance or disappearance of these states. And

in the second place, the three states admit neither of concurrence in space

nor of succession in time. Strictly speaking, we have to conclude that

sleep is only pure consciousness which has no relation whatever with its

manifestation in shape of pramAtru-pramEya, & this state of ours is neither

waking nor dreaming nor sleeping at any point of time. It is therefore

neither cause nor effect from this absolute stand point. It is this phase

of sleep as identical with the everchangeless Atman that is described as

*the fourth* (turIya - chaturtha manyanto sa Atma) relatively to the

empirical egoes of the three states and seves as the theme of ajAtivAda as

propagated by bhagavadpAda's paramaguru GaudapAda.

 

shree sadgurucharaNAravindArpaNamastu

 

Humble praNAms to all sincere truth seekers

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

References :

(a) shankara bhAshya on mAndukya & kArika published by Adhyatma prakasha

kAryalaya

(b) paramArtha chintAmaNi - An independent work in kannada by my guruji Sri

SachidAnandEndra sarasvati swamiji.

© gaudapAda hrudaya in kannada by the same author.

(d) shankara samsmaraNa by Devarao kulakarni ( direct desciple of my

swamiji)

[Guest guest]

Dear Bhaskarji,

 

Why dont you start a series on adhyAropa-apavAda prakriya?

>From your recent mail in the list, it is clear that you are the best

qualified to lead that discussion !!

 

Please consider this request.

 

Hari Om

ranjeet

 

 

-

<bhaskar.yr

"Ranjeet Sankar" <thefinalsearch

Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:12 PM

Re: Fw: Waking & Dream - An objective outlook

 

>

> praNAm prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> Most of his books available at :

>

> Vedanta Book House,

> Near Uma Talkies

> Chamrajpet

> Bangalore

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

>

[Guest guest]

Why dont you start a series on adhyAropa-apavAda prakriya?

>From your recent mail in the list, it is clear that you are the best

qualified to lead that discussion !!

 

Please consider this request.

 

 

praNAm Sri Ranjeet prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks for your kind words. Yes prabhuji, I am also equally interested to

share my understanding on this very important prakriya in advaita

siddhAnta. But main problem for me is intermittant availability of system.

Due to this problem, I am not sure of the continuity of the discussion.

Fortunately, now my colleague is on tour, I am liberally using his system

:-)

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Bhaskarji,

 

I am not writing this to argue with you, but I feel it is necessary

to point out one important aspect of Advaita epsitemology which I

think is scarcely given the importance it is due. I thought I would

express it here for whatever it is worth.

 

 

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

> Since our childhood we've been invariably experiencing

> waking, dream & sleep states. Despite occurrences of

> these three states at utmost regularity, we are without

> our knowledge giving more reality to our waking state when

> compared to the other two states!! why this is so??

 

This is because the waking state is the state in which the context of

study (of the shruti and bhashyas) arises. This is the foundation of

Advaita epistemology. You may consider all the three states as the

subjects of your study, but the reference point of the study is the

waking state and the road to the Advaitic truth as a conscious

directed effort begins from this reference point. The order of the

pramanas in Advaita therefore places the greatest importance on

perception of the waking state - as the already given frame of

reference for the study. The only pramana that is higher on the scale

than this is the shruti.

 

> Interestingly, frankly speaking, we donot know which state

> has come first to us!! is it waking?? I dont think so,

> coz. in our childhood we've spent most of our time in

> sleeping.

 

This is the chicken and the egg story in another guise. In Advaita,

neither the chicken or the egg comes first - they are both

beginningless, and the causality that operates between them only

manifests these eternal things in accordance with the causal nexus

that prevails in the realm of names and forms. (I will try to cover

this in Part VII).

 

> We cannot stand-in in any one state & give arbitrary

> verdict on other two states.

 

We can atleast acknowledge that we are in the waking state when we

are in the waking state, and once that is acknowledged, it becomes

clear that everything we speak (by investing meaning and purpose in

the speech) is from this reference point only and cannot be

otherwise. Even when we consider something from the point of the

dream state, we are considering it only in the frame of reference of

the waking state by placing ourselves in an artifacted frame of

reference of the dream state.

 

We cannot stand-in the dream state when we are in the waking state.

The answer to seeing all the three states is not to stand anywhere,

but to go inward to the Witness by dispossessing ourselves of the

notion that the self is in any state, for the Self is the witness of

all states. Trying to artificially stand anywhere other than where

you are standing is liable to cause fallacies in reasoning.

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Bhaskarji,

 

praNAms Sri Chittaranjan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

CN prabhuji:

 

This is because the waking state is the state in which the context of

study (of the shruti and bhashyas) arises. This is the foundation of

Advaita epistemology. You may consider all the three states as the

subjects of your study, but the reference point of the study is the

waking state and the road to the Advaitic truth as a conscious

directed effort begins from this reference point.

 

bhaskar :

 

I agree & I've stated that practical utility of the vyAvahArika jagat

cannot be neglected. But atleast we know being the students of shAstra,

the true nature of ours ultimately something which transcends all these

three states. shankara beautifully explains this in Itareya shruti

bhashya. He says, though we are in waking state & doing shAstra & loukika

vyavahAra it is still in the realm of avidya. Hence we've to treat jAgrat

also as good as dream.

 

CN prabhuji:

 

The order of the pramanas in Advaita therefore places the greatest

importance on

perception of the waking state - as the already given frame of

reference for the study. The only pramana that is higher on the scale

than this is the shruti.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, to validate pramANa, first we need to sit in the seat of

pramAtrutva & have to keep something for pramEya to know it.. is it not??

But shankara says pramAna, pramEya vyavahAra itself is in avidyA kshEtra.

Pls. note we are not after Atman's pramAtrutva here, we are doing jignAsa

about sAkshi to even this pramAtrutva in us.

 

CN prabhuji :

> Interestingly, frankly speaking, we donot know which state

> has come first to us!! is it waking?? I dont think so,

> coz. in our childhood we've spent most of our time in

> sleeping.

 

This is the chicken and the egg story in another guise. In Advaita,

neither the chicken or the egg comes first - they are both

beginningless, and the causality that operates between them only

manifests these eternal things in accordance with the causal nexus

that prevails in the realm of names and forms. (I will try to cover

this in Part VII).

 

bhaskar:

 

if our waking & dream are like chicken & the egg story, definitely we can

say neither chicken influenced the egg nor egg influenced the chicken is it

not?? So prabhuji, what is the great thing then in holding waking

(chicken/egg) reality over the other?? Moreover, according to your

understanding of shankara siddhAnta this *realm of names & forms* also

parabrahman is it not??

 

CN prabhuji:

> We cannot stand-in in any one state & give arbitrary

> verdict on other two states.

 

We can atleast acknowledge that we are in the waking state when we

are in the waking state, and once that is acknowledged, it becomes

clear that everything we speak (by investing meaning and purpose in

the speech) is from this reference point only and cannot be

otherwise. Even when we consider something from the point of the

dream state, we are considering it only in the frame of reference of

the waking state by placing ourselves in an artifacted frame of

reference of the dream state.

 

bhaskar :

 

Ofcourse, this rigorous argument holds good even when a dreamer in dream

thinking that he is waker & arguing about dreaming & its futility is it

not?? I think Sri Sadananda prabhuji explained this in one of his mails.

 

 

CN prabhuji:

 

We cannot stand-in the dream state when we are in the waking state.

 

bhaskar :

 

so is the case with dreamer prabhuji, a dreamer cannot wear waker's coat.

Two states are entirely different under separate time & space frame.

 

CN prabhuji:

 

The answer to seeing all the three states is not to stand anywhere,

but to go inward to the Witness by dispossessing ourselves of the

notion that the self is in any state, for the Self is the witness of

all states. Trying to artificially stand anywhere other than where

you are standing is liable to cause fallacies in reasoning.

 

bhaskar :

 

You just echoed my views deplomatically:-)) The term *Stand-out* in my

mail does not ask you to stand on the moon to have the analytical view of

the earth :-)) Hope you can hear the *sound* behind the *stand out*

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

 

Hari hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Respected Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

There is nothing that is not relative. The words are relative because it is

through words only we express our knowledge/experience, which are all relative.

There is only one absolute and independent knowledge/experience and that is “I

exist”. Advaita analyses that “I” which says “I exist” and the real nature or

Swaroopa of that “I”.

 

The “real real” is the Swaroopa of “that I” alone.

 

Hari Om

 

 

 

 

vvs wrote:

 

All words arise with relative meanings. Realm of time and space too are

different because of Avidya. Hence waking state and dream state appear as our

state

of existence.. . . . . etc

advaitin/

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"OUR WAKING STATE" carries a word "our" which is ASMITA (ie a mode of

avidya). We all keep saying waking state as "our" experience because of

clinging to

"our" waking state. All such words arise in mind because mind is Avidya's

playground. Awareness of this Avidya and its various modes--- asmita, raga

,

Dvesha, Abhinivesha is a happening. When this understanding happens, then

there is

no need of a reference point as "my" waking state. The (universal)

consciousness attains the waking state as a thought.

All individual waking or dream states are in minds.That Oneness Awareness

continues to exist regardless of all states of mind yet mind does not

realize it.

When mind becomes calm (zero), there is no individual or seperate reference

state such as waking state or dream state.

 

praNAm Sri VVS prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thanks for your kind inputs. Yes, this is how advaita treats our avastha

traya. Waker has his waking mind through which he sees waking world, so is

the case with dreamer & his dreaming world. In both cases mind projects

world as an external object & its absence is quite evident in our deep

sleep state. It clearly shows, *in avastha-s world is there, its not that

in world we are experiencing avastha-s* this is the crux of the avastha

traya prakriya as purported in mAndukya shruti. Sri Ravishankar in his

video presentation on astAvakra gIta says the same thing.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar