SEPTEMBER TOPIC: "THE PLACE OF PRACTICE IN ADVAITA-VEDANTA"

[Guest guest]

ANNIVERSARY!

============

 

Namaste to all, on this 6th Anniversary day of the founding of the advaitin

list!

 

Through the years, the advaitin list has maintained exceptionally high levels of

scholarship and respectful interaction with others. I am glad that there is a

list like this on the internet, and am proud to be part of it! Pranaams to all!

 

 

TOPIC: "THE PLACE OF PRACTICE IN ADVAITA-VEDANTA"

==================================================

 

I am not as *knowledgeable* about this topic as I am *interested* in it. So I

won't be presenting a series of articles about it. Instead, I'll try to keep

the discussion going, asking questions and making comments here and there. Many

of you know encyclopedic amounts about this topic. Why do I say that? Because

I gather that Vedic and Vedantic culture (in which I was not raised) teaches

many things about this topic that I won't have encountered.

 

Most of my information about the place of practice in Shankara's advaita-vedanta

comes from my own reading of texts, and the wonderful classes taught by the

Chinmaya Mission. There, it is taught that practice is indeed helpful to

prepare the way for direct knowledge of Brahman as our true nature. But in

spite of this, there is no cause-and-effect relationship that entails or

guarantees this knowledge. Which is to say, there's no set of practices that an

aspirant can do that logically or causally *must* bring on this knowledge.

 

Some of this topic might be controversial.

 

There are other views, which I don't think it's off-topic to discuss. For

example, neo/pseudo advaita promotes an "anti-practice" view. "Spiritual

practice will only strengthen the sense of identification," they say. This view

is appealing to many people who are either unacquainted with spiritual practice,

or who might be disenchanted with their own spiritual tradition. They can join

the neo-advaita movement without feeling "behind."

 

But as far as I know, traditional advaita-vedanta is in favor of practice.

Karma yoga, bhakti yoga, raja yoga, jnana yoga. The way I understand it,

traditional advaita-vedanta sees these activities, when done sincerely, as

preparing the ground so that the direct, non-intellectual knowledge of one's

self as Brahman becomes a living reality.

 

In fact, the TATTVA BODHA speaks of the fourfold qualities which are

"qualifications":

 

1. Discrimination -- The ability to discriminate between the eternal and the

timebound.

 

2. Dispassion -- Dispassion for the enjoyment of the fruits of one's actions.

 

3. The Six Accomplishments --

(1) Control of the mind and emotions.

(2) Control of the sense organs, restraining behavior.

(3) Responsibility, ability to do one's duty.

(4) Patience and forbearance towards pairs of opposites

such as heat and cold, pleasant and unpleasant.

(5) Trust in the words of the teacher and scriptures

and teachings

(6) Ability to focus on a single object of mind

 

4. The burning desire for liberation.

 

But, qualifications for what? Enforced how? I'd heard in the Chinmaya

teachings that according to tradition, there was a time when the family guru

would screen the aspirants for Advaitic teaching for the presence of these

qualifications. The guru would not teach Advaita-Vedanta to those whose lives

did not exemplify the qualifications.

 

These days, of course, are different. Anyone can find the Advaitic teachings.

There's Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com and the Internet. The fourfold

qualifications now have *another* function. Instead of being qualifications to

*receive* the Vedantic teachings, they work as an invisible hand. They

self-select those for whom the teachings are *effective*. That is, out of all

those students who *encounter* the Advaitic teachings, the teachings will make

sense and become transformational only for those in whom the qualifications have

*taken root*.

 

Suggested sub-topics for discussion:

 

--Can practice make you enlightened?

--Can practice give you any of the fourfold qualifications?

--Is the textual study of advaita vedanta itself a practice?

--What are the relationships between the fourfold

qualifications and the goal of advaita vedanta?

--What are the benefits and limits of practice?

--What are the kinds of practice?

--For each practice, what are its effects?

--What is practice UNable to do?

--What to the Upanishads, BSB and Gita say about it?

 

My own opinion about this month's topic is that some amount of personal

experience is relevant to these discussions, but it should be limited to the

scope of the topic.

 

Several years ago, I prepared several articles about these topics, which might

help get the discussion started. These pieces are hosted by the nonduality.com

site:

 

"Is Spiritual Practice Necessary?"

http://nonduality.com/goode5.htm

 

"Nondualism, Yogas and Personality Characteristics"

http://nonduality.com/goode2.htm

 

"Chart About How the Yogas Work with Each Other" (PDF file)

http://nonduality.com/yogas.pdf

 

Pranaams to all!

 

--Greg Goode

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Greg Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> ANNIVERSARY!

> ============

>

> Namaste to all, on this 6th Anniversary day of the founding of the

advaitin list!

>

>

> Suggested sub-topics for discussion:

>

> --Can practice make you enlightened?

> --Can practice give you any of the fourfold qualifications?

> --Is the textual study of advaita vedanta itself a practice?

> --What are the relationships between the fourfold

> qualifications and the goal of advaita vedanta?

> --What are the benefits and limits of practice?

> --What are the kinds of practice?

> --For each practice, what are its effects?

> --What is practice UNable to do?

> --What to the Upanishads, BSB and Gita say about it?

>

> My own opinion about this month's topic is that some amount of

personal experience is relevant to these discussions, but it should

be limited to the scope of the topic.

>

> >

> --Greg Goode

 

Namaste Greg-ji,

 

Congratulations on the topic and the sub-topics chosen. You may add,

if you like, the following also to the list of your sub-topics:

 

-- What in practice, is it to practise advaita?

 

Please note the noun 'practice' and the verb 'practise' as in the

English (not American!) language.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

(I am all set now for my tomorrow's trip back to India. My next

post, God willing, will have to be from India).

profvk

[Guest guest]

At 03:39 PM 9/1/2004 +0000, V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

>Namaste Greg-ji,

>

>Congratulations on the topic and the sub-topics chosen. You may add,

>if you like, the following also to the list of your sub-topics:

>

>-- What in practice, is it to practise advaita?

 

===Excellent question. Consider it added!

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

Namaste Gregji:

 

On this 6th Anniversary day of the founding of the advaitin list,

this month's topic fits well with the theme of the list.

 

The purpose of this discussion is to emphasize the recognize

the "unity" within the diversity. The Vedic religion of rituals and

practices (though in appearance contradictory to Advaita Philosophy)

is a great weapon for mind purification. Only with the purified mind,

the spiritual seeker is able to recognize his/her "Divine Nature" and

that is "Self-Realization." The diversity is created by the "names

and forms" and the vision of unity emerges with the dissolution of

the names and forms. We certainly don't have any satisfactory answer

for the this vicious cycle of creation (manifestation) and

dissolution (unmanifestation)and we attempt to explain this

as "mAyA." You have stated the linkage between "practices"

and "liberation" beatifully, "There, it is taught that practice is

indeed helpful to prepare the way for direct knowledge of Brahman as

our true nature. But in spite of this, there is no cause-and-effect

relationship that entails or guarantees this knowledge. Which is to

say, there's no set of practices that an aspirant can do that

logically or causally *must* bring on this knowledge."

 

Our fundamental question is, "How to live with peace and happiness."

The liberation that we seek is the 'real' answer to the above

practical question. The answer is quite simple (very complex?): Just

follow those practices that brings you "peace and happiness" while

you live! This trial and error method of finding the 'right practice"

is the real challenge of our life. The sages and saints of the

Upanishads say that "Life is a bridge, enjoy while crossing and

avoid building any castle." This quotation due to Carlton is

another good one: "Happiness is like a butterfly, if you pursue, you

can never catch it; however, when you sit quietly, it comes on you on

its own!"

 

In conclusion, when we learn to identify and master the practice that

dissolves all practices what so ever (including itself) that will

bring the wisdom! When the seeker learns "not to seek" he gets the

wisdom!!

 

regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

=========================================

Note: Since Gregji mentioned about the 6th anniversary, let me

recognize the following founding members of the list for their

invaluable dedication and contribution to to the list in various ways.

 

Sri Sadananda

Sri Greg Goodie

Sri Frank Maiello

Sri Gummuluru Murthy

Sri Madhava Turumella

Sri Nanda

Sri Ram Chandran

Sri Charles Wikner

 

The current moderators of the list though join later than the

founding members are recognized for their wisdom and service to the

universal community through this list.

Sri Sunder Hattangadi

Sri Ananda Wood

Sri Dennis Waite

Sri Madathil Rajendran Nair

Sri Prof. V. Krishnamurthy

 

The 830 plus members of the list is the asset of this list and the

list is truly blessed to have them.

=========================================

 

advaitin, Greg Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> ANNIVERSARY!

> ============

>

> Namaste to all, on this 6th Anniversary day of the founding of the

advaitin list!

>

> Through the years, the advaitin list has maintained exceptionally

high levels of scholarship and respectful interaction with others. I

am glad that there is a list like this on the internet, and am proud

to be part of it! Pranaams to all!

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> wrote:

> Namaste Gregji:

>

> On this 6th Anniversary day of the founding of the advaitin list,

> this month's topic fits well with the theme of the list.

>

>

> In conclusion, when we learn to identify and master the practice that

> dissolves all practices what so ever (including itself) that will

> bring the wisdom! When the seeker learns "not to seek" he gets the

> wisdom!!

 

Namaste,

 

 

"Can practice make you enlightened?

Can practice give you any of the fourfold qualifications?

Is the textual study of advaita vedanta itself a practice?

What are the relationships between the fourfold

qualifications and the goal of advaita vedanta?

What are the benefits and limits of practice?

What are the kinds of practice?

For each practice, what are its effects?

What is practice UNable to do?

What to the Upanishads, BSB and Gita say about it?

What in practice, is it to practise advaita?"

 

 

Namaste,

 

AcharaNa and abhyAsa are the commonly used words for

'practice' or correctly 'sAdhanA' .

 

The second chapter of Patanjali Yoga-Sutras, and the

third ch. of Brahma-Sutra are both titled

'sAdhanA pAda', and can be fruitfully explored.

 

The Gita, the essence of all the Upanishadic wisdom,

gives it the utmost importance. Its description of one who has become

perfect in practice is given under : sthitaprajna, guNAtIta,

naiShkarmya-siddha.

 

These pointers could keep us busy for some time to come!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Prof. Krishnamurthyji.

 

Your concluding statement is a constant remembrance and man's

acknowledgement of the supremacy of the Lord. To say what you have

said, I am sure, you needed to have practised and thought about it in

the beginning.

 

Here, in Arabic, we say insha Allah - which means "God willing". If

you request an Arab to do something for you and even if he is one

hundred percent sure that he can meet your request, his answer will

still be Insha Allah! That comes from practice for those who have

really *thought* about it. Of course, for others, it may just be an

empty expression mouthed in imitation.

 

Bon voyage and PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

____________________

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

>> (I am all set now for my tomorrow's trip back to India. My next

> post, God willing, will have to be from India.......)

[Guest guest]

Namaste Gregji.

 

The neos are also practising, Gregji! Otherwise, why all their

discussion groups and interminable talk. They are doing satsangh and

that is a sort of practice.

 

Practice goes with thinking. The two cannot be separated. The neo

brainstormers are actually practising when they write volumes and

volumes on their direct approach. How can they then escape

the 'identification' apprehended in the traditional?

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_______________

 

 

advaitin, Greg Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> ANNIVERSARY!

> ============

>> There are other views, which I don't think it's off-topic to

discuss. For example, neo/pseudo advaita promotes an "anti-practice"

view. "Spiritual practice will only strengthen the sense of

identification," they say. This view is appealing to many people who

are either unacquainted with spiritual practice, or who might be

disenchanted with their own spiritual tradition. They can join the

neo-advaita movement without feeling "behind."

>

[Guest guest]

Respected Members,

 

My namaskarams to Respected Moderators and Members of Advaitin Group on the

occasion of its 6th Anniversary. It is really a blessing to be a member of this

group for a student like me who is trying to assimilate Advaitic Principle, i.e.

Self-knowledge.

 

"THE PLACE OF PRACTICE IN ADVAITA-VEDANTA" has been a very controversial

subject, and a discussion on it, I am sure, will help people like me quite a lot

to clear any misreading we have.

 

I would like to say a few words on this subject.

 

“Practice” is always undertaken by one to achieve perfection in any particular

field, all with the idea only to become happy. However, in Vyvahara or ephemeral

day today life, perfection in any field is never possible.

 

One may be Number One in wrestling through life-long practice, but only till the

time he is defeated by another Wrestler.

 

The knowledge “Aham Brahmasmi”, “Poornoham” or “Anandoham” cannot be further

perfected, as the “other” is not there to defeat one who has this knowledge.

 

Practice can be there only when there is a technique and one can practice only

the technique and not the knowledge behind the technique. Any practice is to

“become perfect” or more correctly “to become happy”. There is no question of

becoming happy involved in Advaitic knowledge, which unfolds that one is already

happiness itself. Happiness can never become happy, and nor is it required.

 

Abhyasa or Practice in Vedanta pertains to Sravana, Manana and Nidhidhyasana.

 

“I am a Man” is a piece of knowledge, though relative, and is there any practice

required “to be a man”? It is a fact, though relative, and this knowledge him to

live like a man.

 

The purpose of our life is “to live”. One learns “how to live” when Advaitic

knowledge takes place. We all have been living our lives all through with

certain knowledge rather notions about us, about the world that confronts us and

about the Creator with the single goal of becoming happy or remaining in

happiness. Advaita says this knowledge we have, rather notions we have, is

erroneous due to Ignorance about our own self and about the world and the

Creator or Isvara. Just because of Ignorance about Aham, Idam and Iswara, i.e.

I, other than I, and the creator, all our pursuits go in vain, as our pursuits

are directed towards “becoming something” without knowing that we are already

that.

 

 

 

A Gnani or Knower of Self, continues to live not to become happy, but out of

happiness.

 

With regard to

 

<<<1. Discrimination -- The ability to discriminate between the eternal and the

timebound. >>>

 

Till exposure to Advaitic knowledge, we do not have this discriminating ability,

as all our discrimination is based on notions about Aham, Idam and Iswara. I for

one never knew what is eternal till I had exposure to Vedanta, particularly

Advaita, because what I considered Eternal was not Eternal in its real meaning.

They were all fleeting passing shows.

 

<<2. Dispassion -- Dispassion for the enjoyment of the fruits of one's

actions.>>

 

Once one is able to know what exactly is “Eternal” this dispassion slowly, but

definitely takes place. One does not need to force any dispassion on himself.

 

<<3. The Six Accomplishments --

 

(1) <<Control of the mind and emotions.>>

 

As for Control of Mind, any forceful control of mind does not help at all. It is

better to know the mind which is just a bundle of thoughts only, and so are the

emotions, which are just thoughts floating, but the Ego till enlightened gets

affected by the emotions, and make erroneous conclusions about itself. Self

knowledge corrects this.

 

(2) <<Control of the sense organs, restraining behavior.>>

 

Once there is “knowledge” about the mind, the control takes place, again slowly

but definitely in due course.

 

(3) <<Responsibility, ability to do one's duty.

 

(4) Patience and forbearance towards pairs of opposites

 

such as heat and cold, pleasant and unpleasant.>>

 

Both these again takes place, slowly but definitely, as one gets exposed to

self-knowledge.

 

(5) <<Trust in the words of the teacher and scriptures

 

and teachings.>>

 

This I consider as the most important Pre-requisite for study of Vedanta.

Without this one can never make any progress. One has to approach Vedanta

particularly Advaita with a “clean slate” i.e. with a totally open mind. Doubts

may arise and one has to wait patiently as all doubts and confusion get resolved

when one recognizes and appreciates “sarvam khalu idam brahma”, as all such

doubts have notions and not real knowledge about one, about others and Isvara,

as their foundation.

 

(6) <<Ability to focus on a single object of mind>>

 

Yes, here practice can help as continuous meditation helps with the relative

calm mind, one can achieve this again slowly but definitely.

 

4. <<The burning desire for liberation.>>

 

I doubt, pardon me, how many of us had this “burning desire for liberation”.

Yes, we always want to improve our lot all with the idea of becoming happy, but

not with the idea of liberation. What exactly is this Liberation? Liberation

from what?

 

IMHO, liberation we are trying to “attain” is from the hold of our own mind and

intellect, packed with erroneous knowledge about ourselves, and the world around

us and not exactly from the world that confronts us.

 

Is the liberation from the cycle of birth and death, “Punarapi Jananm Punarapi

Maranam? We do not know whether we will be “reborn” for only to die again.

 

Coming to

 

<<Suggested sub-topics for discussion:

 

<<--Can practice make you enlightened?>>

 

Enlightenment is for the Ego with regard to getting removed its notions about

itself, i.e. its own nature (Swaroopa), about the world and Iswara. Since

notions are Mithyagnana i.e. erroneous knowledge, only Knowledge is required and

no practice is required. One cannot practice any knowledge, though one can

practice a technique.

 

<<--Can practice give you any of the fourfold qualifications?>>

 

Here again, the four-fold qualifications unless backed by Knowledge about Aham,

Idam and Isvara, if just practiced takes one nowhere.

 

<<--Is the textual study of advaita vedanta itself a practice?>>

 

One can practice study of texts i.e. till the knowledge takes place. I remember

the “Swimming Analogy” discussion that took place some time ago. One can

practice swimming but when he is in deep water, swimming takes place

spontaneously, and one does not practice swimming there, and one is not afraid

of the depth of the water. Similarly once the Knowledge takes place there is no

further fear (“Atmana Vindate Veeryam”) and one swims and crosses the water with

no fear.

 

<<--What are the relationships between the fourfold

 

qualifications and the goal of advaita vedanta?>>

 

The Ego gets equipped with this “four fold qualifications” slowly but definitely

as he progresses in the Study of Vedanta particularly Advaita. These

qualifications help him to live his life in such a way that there is no more

seeking of happiness for him or pursuit to be somebody and there no more fear

for him to be nobody.

 

<<--What are the benefits and limits of practice?>>

 

The knowledge “Aham Brahmasmi” or “Poornoham” or “Anandoham” etc. helps one to

live with emotional maturity, as one with such knowledge accepts everything and

accommodate everything as Iswara.

 

<<--What are the kinds of practice?

 

--For each practice, what are its effects?

 

--What is practice UNable to do?

 

--What to the Upanishads, BSB and Gita say about it?>>

 

I am not competent enough to say much about these, as in my humble opinion,

THERE IS NO PRACTICE INVOLVED IN ADVAITA VEDANTA, as it is all about the

absolute knowledge i.e. Sat Chit Anand: Aham. Yes one can continue to study the

texts and do sravana, and more than that manana and nidhidhyasana, till his

behavior and inter-action with the world does not cause any more emotional

problem for him and till his attitude changes towards he himself and the world

and Isvara. In short till he is not affected by the Shad Urmies, the six enemies

Kama, Krodha, Moha, Lobha, Mada and Matsarya.

 

Respected members, all that is said by me is only for your guiding me in my

living.

 

With warm regards and Hari Om

 

Mani

 

 

 

 

 

 

Greg Goode <goode wrote:TOPIC: "THE PLACE OF PRACTICE IN

ADVAITA-VEDANTA"

==================================================

advaitin/

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

=======================================================

Request from the List Moderator to Sri Marc and others:

Please do not include the entire message of the previous posters while replying.

I have cut the unnecessary 'tail' from your message and posted it here. I

request all other memebrs to follow this example and avoid including unnecessary

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=======================================================

 

Namaste to all...

congratulations for the 6th Anniversary....

a treasure of words in here....

 

About practice in advaita-vedanta,

what is the practice of Brahman?

Brahman breath through many people....see through many eyes.....feel

through many bodies.....

if one heart is married to Brahman....every action is done ...to keep

on being in this relationship......

keep on breahting is one practice some people do....i mean with much

consciousness....

i beleive many more actions can be done....to keep on practice in

advaita-vedanta

 

this are only few thoughts....

 

with love

 

Marc

 

 

 

we could continue toadvaitin, Greg Goode

<goode@D...> wrote:

> ANNIVERSARY!

> ============

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

Namaste all.

 

I take `practice' in the context of our discussion to mean what is

known as sAdhanA in Sanskrit.

 

To be a good crciketeer, one needs daily practice. To be what, we

need sAdhanA? As Maniji pointed out before, in advaita, the the so-

called goal is something that is already possessed or what we really

are. But, unfortunately, most of us do not know that we have it.

Thus, all the prescriptions of austerities, meditation, contemplation

etc.

 

This implies that, before we embark on a course of sAdhanA, at least,

an intellectual appreciation of what we already are or what we

already possess should be there as a desideratum. Lest, advaitic

sAdhanA becomes aimless and purposeless. SAdhana lets the

preliminary appreciation to flower and shine forth as the real nature

of Oneself.

 

This is not to deride those who embark on strict austerities and

sense control without a basic advaitic understanding. In fact, we

see around us many accomplished souls who bagan without any

foundation whatsoever and are now capable of unraveling vEdantic

thoughts lucidly to their followers. Some of them are, in fact, more

effective than our current masters in advaita. Looks like,

therefore, that ultimate realization of one's own nature is Grace

bestowed on intellectually-enquiring minds as well as devout

devotees. Hence, the talk of jnAna yOga, bhakti yOga etc. The fact

is that jnAna and bhakti are inter-complementary. Grace showers

jnAna on the devotee. The one after jnAna ultimately realizes

through Grace that jnAna is nothing other than bhakti.

 

It seems that while the former lot works with a perfect methodology,

the latter has a strong sense of surrender and selflessness perhaps

acquired from the past (births!). In either case, however, the

inherent drive is the truth conveyed by SrImad Bhagavad GItA verse:

Sarva dharmAn parityAjya, mAmEkam sharaNam vraja… The former may or

may not need efforts depending on their past samskArA. The latter is

in a groove of spontaneity by default even as they keep invoking

their ishtadEvatA.

 

Sarva dharmAn parityAjya, therefore, sums up the whole of sAdhanA

that is needed to know what one already is or one already has.

Sankara's `TatwabhOdha' and Srimad Bhagavad GItA (in the section

dealing with values particularly) give us a practical outline of how

we should go about discarding our false identifications to

ultimately `realize' what we already are.

 

That such texts are there, therefore, strongly suggest that sAdhanA

is very much required in advaita. Our getting together in this List

and exchanging thoughts itself is an element of sAdhanA, although

many of us are inclined to believe that no efforts are required for

us to know what we actually are.

 

In this context, I wish Members had been forthcoming to detail their

personal achievements with regard to sAdhanA. To bell the cat, I

strayed into advaita in 1977. I attribute that straying to some past

samskArA, for, before that, I was a materialistic rut. The only

spiritual content that I had was some mythological knowledge of

RAmayaNa MahA Bharata and BhAgavatam. As a boy, RAmayaNa used to

fascinate me. I had a liking for Sanskrit too (again pUrva samskAra

perhaps). My familiarity with MahA BhArata and BhAgavatam was mainly

through the Kerala art-form called Katakali. We used to have plenty

of it annually during the Shivaratri festivals. Sw. Vivekananda had

moved me to some extent. So also, Sw. Yogananda Paramahamsa,

whose `Autobiography of a Yogi' had me weeping perhaps out of self-

pity. I was then in Bombay living a reckless life. English poets

like William Wordsworth had also influenced my philosophical leanings

in college days.

 

In 1977, I began with Chinmayanandaji's interpretation of SrImad

Bhagvad GItA and then went on to his commentaries on the important

Upanishads. I also read some of his general works and began to

foolishly believe that I knew too much. That belief was a big

obstacle.

 

In 1981 or thereabout, when some friends following Sw. Dayananda

Saraswatiji approached me with the intention of organizing a satsangh

in our locality, I was rather blunt with them. I told them that I

already knew what they were going to discuss and found no need to

join in. Yet, I was persuaded to unwillingly attend the first

satsangh led by one of Swamiji's disciples. That was a real eye-

opener. From the first few meetings itself, I knew I had totally

misunderstood advaita. Swamiji's logic and common-sense, as revealed

through the words of his disciple, had me enthralled.

 

Thanks to all that and to further reading and listening, I can now

claim without a bloated head that I have the fundamentals of the

advaitic vision. Some of you may call me misguided. Yet, I know

that no one can do that with the conviction that he or she is

properly guided. I may still be far far short of knowing my real

advaitic nature. However, I do now have a vision of it that fits

well with common-sense and basic logic and, in that respect, I have

traveled a lot ahead from my banal existence of the 1960s and 1970s.

 

What brought about this metamorphosis from recklessness to the

present modicum of sanity? Well, we may argue that it was all pre-

ordained and Grace. I am scared to refute such point of view, being

myself a fatalist devotee of the Devi on whose Lotus Feet I am

inclinded to place all my burdens and worries (lip-service eh?!).

She has guided me, no doubt, and blessed me abundantly. Yet, for the

sake of this discussion, let me see if there was any self-effort

involved admitting that even such self-effort is a Grace from Her.

What did I do all these days from 1977?

 

1. Reading scriptural texts and their interpretations

2. Listening to preceptors

3. Almost continuous contemplation on the Truth

4. Chanting stOtrAs including nAmAvalis, contemplating on their

meanings and interpreting them from the angle of my advaitic vision

doing daily nIrAjanam to Her at dawn and dusk

5. Performing weekly Shri Cakara pUjA visualizing the cakra as

the whole of creation and Her seated on the bindu as Consciousness

6. Attending satsanghs

7. Talking advaita to interested friends and relatives and

benefiting from their insight

8. Writing down my thoughts here on Advaitin and other smilar

Lists and assimilating the insights of other knowledgeable Members

9. Placing all my roles on Her Lotus Feet which to me are the

pedestal of Advaitic Consciousness and invoking Her to conduct my

life for me (She is naughty – she fails me often!)

10. Constantly reminding me of the advaitic truth of my real

nature and endeavouring to separate me out of the call of senses,

ego, mind and intellect in order to overcome the frailties of banal

existence and live a life of Oneness and Love with all

 

This is all sAdhana in my personal opinion. The ego often raises its

head in # 7 and 8. The last two are really difficult. I have no tall

claims with regard to them as I am still a mixture of many human

failures. I get angry when my children are not what I want them to

be. I have frequent disagreements and quarrels with my wife, which

upset me. I have bad habits too. Yet, when at last, I retire to Her

Lotus Feet, I have a chastely feeling that I have moved much farther

away from what I had been before. Isn't that an accomplishment in

itself? Would that have been possible at all without knowing the

fundamentals of advaita and practising some sAdhanA?

 

No, Sir. SAdhanA has a big place in advaita. It is not enough if we

simply sit saying that advaita is all about what I already am and I

don't have to do anything about it. I have to necessarily keep

reminding me about the Truth of me using common-sense and advaitic

logic until my real nature spontaneously flowers and shines. When it

will is an unwarranted question as that real nature is

an `alwaysness' outside the realm of temporality. I don't then have

to `know' when it happens. What does it matter, as long as the Lotus

Feet are all that there is and my head is firmly placed on Them!?

Whatever I say, write, do or practice is within time. A prayer in

time to Timelessness! Why call it futility? Isn't futility afterall

a temporal notion? What else can one do? Stop doing? Isn't that a

doing?

 

I wrote this much in the fond hope that others may also be

forthcoming with interesting accounts of their personal attempts at

sAdhanA. That I am sure would enrich Gregji's discussion and make it

very educative, informative and interesting.

 

Sorry if I have indulged.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Namaste Madathil-Ji:

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and let me add my simplistic

thought on "Why saadhanaa?"

 

saadhanaa is like tuning an instrument. Instrument can only make

music when it is "in-tune" otherwise all that comes-out is noise.

 

When Guru often tells, "let "HIM" do the work through YOU".

Here "HIM" and "YOU yourself" need to be united through "saadhanaa"

for music of enlightenment to be manifested.

 

There more than one way to climb a mountain. One destination many

paths. (instruments and the paths being - dvaita, advaita, bhakti,

and haTayoga ... etc.) But all of them need some sort of "tune-up".

 

Regards and best wishes for all aspirants,

 

aa no bhadraaH kratavo yantu vishvataH

 

Yadunath

 

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste all.

>

> I take `practice' in the context of our discussion to mean what is

> known as sAdhanA in Sanskrit.

>

[Guest guest]

Thank You Sri Nair-ji !!

 

Another wonderful post right on the eve of SRI KRISHNA JANMASHTSAMI

full of devotion and servitude.

 

You state and rather powerfully in an inimitable fashion ...

 

(SAdhanA has a big place in advaita. It is not enough if we

simply sit saying that advaita is all about what I already am and I

don't have to do anything about it. )

 

Yes! Yes! Yes!

 

Please Read the following verse from Sivananada -Lahari where Adi

Sankara Bhagvadapada sings with his heart and soul ...

 

kamcit-kAlam-umAmaheSa bhavataH pAdAravindArcanaiH

kamcit-dhyAna-samAdhibhiSca natibhiH kamcit kathA-karNanaiH /

kamcit-kamcid-avekshaNaiSca nutibhiH kamcid-daSAmIdRSIM

yaH prApnoti mudA tvad-arpita-manA jIvan sa muktaH khalu //verse 81

 

Sometime in worshipping Your lotus feet,

sometime in meditation and concentration

sometime in offering obeisance, sometime in listening to stories

about You,

sometime in looking at Your form, sometime in singing Your praise -

he who gains such a state in exhultation, having surrendered his mind

to You, O Lord, he is verily liberated even when alive.

 

(http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/92page10.html - 7k)

 

Adi Sankara Bhagvadapada in Saundarya lahari, sloka 27 , prays to

Devi thus ...

 

Japo Jalpah silpam sakalam api mudra-viracana

gatih pradsaksinya -kramanam asandyahuti-vidih :

pranamah samveshah sukham akilam atmarpana-drsa

saparya-parayayas tava bhavatu yan me vilasitham .

 

May everything that I do with the sense of self-dedication (

atmarpana -drsa) be items in Thy Service - my Prattle, the utterance

of Thy Mantra; the movements of my hand , the gesttures and poses of

Thy worship, my walking, Thy Circumbulation; my eating, fire-

sacrifice to Thee; The stretching of the body in sleep and rest,

prostration to Thee; and all my enjoyments, offerings made to Thee !

 

(Saundarya Lahari- translated by Swami Tapasyananda )

 

It gives me great pleaure to recall this famous verse from Srimad

Bhagvatam on the eve of Sri Krishna Janmashtami ....

 

sravanam kirtanam visnoh

smaranam pada-sevanam

arcanam vandanam dasyam

sakhyam atma-nivedanam

 

iti pumsarpita visnau

bhaktis cen nava-laksana

kriyeta bhagavaty addha

tan manye 'dhitam uttamam

 

 

Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form,

qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Visν

remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the

Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering

prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's

best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words,

serving Him with the body, mind and words) — these nine processes are

accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life

to the service of Krishn ;a through these nine methods should=

be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired

complete knowledge.

( Srila Prabhupada's translation)

 

Well, one can *practice* any of the Four yogas outlined in the Srimad

Bhagwat Gita or a combination of these four Yogas and attain the

Lotus feet of the lord...

 

On Raja Yoga

 

" Establishing a firm seat for himself in a clean place... having

directed his mind to a single object, with his thought and the

activity of the senses controlled, he should practice yoga for the

purpose of self-realization. Holding the body, head and neck erect,

motionless and steady, gazing at the tip of his own nose and not

looking in any direction, with quieted mind, banishing fear,

established in the brahmacharin vow of celibacy, controlling the

mind, with thoughts fixed on Me, he should sit, concentrated, devoted

to Me. Thus, continually disciplining himself, the yogin whose mind

is subdued goes to nirvana, to supreme peace, to union with Me."

(B.G., Chapter 6, Verses 11-15)

 

 

On Karma Yoga

 

" With the body, with the mind, with the intellect, even merely with

the senses, the yogins perform action toward self-purification,

having abandoned attachment. He who is disciplined in yoga, having

abandoned the fruit of action, attains steady peace..." (B.G. Chapter

5, Verses 11-12)

 

 

On Jnana Yoga

" When he perceives the various states of being as resting in the

One, and from That alone spreading out, then he attains Brahman. /

They who know, through the eye of knowledge, the distinction between

the field and the knower of the field, as well as the liberation of

beings from material nature, go to the Supreme." (B.G. Chapter 15,

Verse 31 / Verse 35)

 

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga - 62k - Cached )

 

So, what then is 'sadhnana' .... it is an 'instrument as well as a

means of 'practice' -abhyasa...

 

1) Bhakti yoga -the path of Love and devotion

 

2) Raja- yoga - practicing meditation by stilling the mind and other

yogic techniques

 

3) karma yoga- doing one's duties ( swadharma) AND COMMUNITY SERVICE

without expecting any reward but as a dedicating the fruits of

actions to the Lotus feet of the Lord

 

4) finally, Jnana yoga KNOWING HOW TO DISCRIMINATE BETWEEN WHAT IS

REAL rreAL AND WHAT IS NOT REAL ...

 

 

Our bhakta-shakta Nairji poses a Teaser at the end of his post ....

 

Stop doing? Isn't that a doing?

 

This is the reason why i posted this sloka from Srimad Bhagwat gita

yesterday ...

 

karmani akarmayah pashyed

akarmani ca karmayah

sa buddhimaan manushyesyu

sa yuktah kritsnakarmakrit (IV -18)

 

Swami chinmayananda's translation

 

He who recognizes inaction in action and action in inaction is wise

among men; he is a Yogi and a true performer of all actions.

 

our respected Sri Ram-ji posted a beautiful message outlining the

difference between Karma and Karma yoga.... and i would request all

learned members in this group to elaborate on This further....

 

"a Buddha under the Fig-tree , an artist at his easel, a musician at

his instrument, a writer at his desk- all of them punctuate their

activities with 'still moments of intense activity' -called

inactivity - and they bend forward to pour out their artistic and

literary creations" says swami-ji

 

Let me wish you all a very Auspicious and Happy Sri Krishna

Janmashtami!

 

PLEASE VISIT THIS WEB-PAGE created by Lady Joyce which is lovingly

dedicated to our own beloved Professor Krishnamurthy who contributed

a four part serial on Raasa Leela in my group Sadhana_Shakti!!!

 

http://www.omshaantih.com/Lord%20Krishna/Raasa/LeelA.htm

 

Jaya Râdhâ-Mâdhava

(from Gîtâvalî)

 

 

jaya râdha-mâdhava kun'ja-bihârî

gopî-jana-vallabha, giri-vara-dhârî

Yas'odâ-nandana braja-jana-ran'jana

yâmuna-tîra-vana-cârî

 

Translation:

Krsna is the lover of Radha. He displays many amorous pastimes in the

groves of Vrndavana, He is the lover of the cowherd maidens of Vraja,

the holder of the great hill named Govardhana, the beloved son of

mother Yasoda, the delighter Of the inhabitants of Vraja, and He

wanders in the forests along the banks of the River Yamuna.

 

let us cultivate the ANANYA-BHAKTI OF THE GOPIS towards the Lotus

feet of the LORD!!

 

Krishnam vande jagadgurum!!!!

 

(Dennis-ji - tomorrow is a major hindu festival -sri Krishna

Janmashtami... IT TOOK ME NEARLY 3 HOURS TO CHANT 1008 NAMES OF LORD

KRISHNA ON MY JAPA BEADS ... with every inhalation and exhalation -

so i am exhausted ... )

 

Aum Kilm KRISHNAYA NAMAHA!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adiji.

 

You requested comments on the following SrImad Bhagavad GItA verse

(4.18):

 

karmaNyakarma ya pashyEd

akarmaNi ca karma ya

sa buddhimAn manuSyESu

sa yukta kritsnakarmakrit

 

(ya karmaNi akarma pashyEd, ya akarmaNi karma ca pashyEd , sa

manuSyESu buddhimAn, sa yukta kristnakarmakrit)

 

My simple understanding:

 

We are all always engaged in actions - physical, mental, intellectual

etc. In all these actions, we have a doership. We think that we are

the performers of these actions. This doership is the cause of all

our miseries arising from actions and the results thereof. When we

are enlightened about our real nature, we understand that we are

Atman, on which, as per the shrutis, no agency for actions or

doership can be imposed. Thus, he who knows his real nature knows

that he, as the Self, is not the performer of actions. That is the

first line – seeing inaction (of the Self) in action.

 

Now one decides not to do anything. One stops all actions and sits

quiet. We normally think that that is inaction. Is it so? No.

Because, even in that so-called inaction, one has a sense of agency

or doership. One says to oneself: "I am sitting quiet without doing

anything". Sitting quiet is thus an action although it is mistaken

for inaction. Even that thinking of not doing anything is an

action. That expalains the second line. All so-called `inactions'

are in fact actions.

 

One who understands action and `inaction' thus is said to be wise in

the third line. He who knows that he, as Atman, is not the performer

of actions understands the principle of inaction (by the Self) in

actions normally performed with doership. He also knows that even

the so-called inaction of not doing anything is an action performed

with doership. He constantly remembers and recognizes that not even

for a second any living creature can remain without performing

actions (Ref: BG 3.5).

 

Now let us go to the fourth line. Does he then shun actions due to

his right understanding? No way, Ma'm. He performs all legitimate

actions as per his dharma with the above discriminative knowledge.

That is non-binding action. He is simply not bound to actions or

their results.

 

That takes us back to the oft-quoted famous verse:

karmanyEvadhikArastE (BG 2.47). We have a right over actions. As

Sankara puts it: You have three options: You can do what you want

to do exactly as required, you can choose not do (Please note that

that choosing also is action), you can do it differently. He, who

exercises these options knowing fully well that he, as Atman, is not

the doer, is not bound to them or the results thereof. The Lord is

the bestower of results of actions. Thus, he accepts the results

with equanimity whatever they are, as they can be what he expected,

less or more, or just the opposite. This is called prasAda buddhi –

like you accept the Lord's prasAd from the temple priest without

qualms or objections whatever the item so given be because you know

that it comes from the Lord.

 

Such a one is not actually performing any actions. He witnesses all

his actions – in fact the entire world of actions, reactions and

interactions – and remains tranquil ever united and abiding in his

Self – the real nature - like the lotus leaf remaining undrenched in

water. The word used in the verse for the disposition of such an

enlightened one is yukta which befits the context more due to its

explicit and immediate meaning of `united and abiding' than the

general term yOgI.

 

The verse should be understood from our previous lengthy discussions

on superimposition. The world of actions involving doership is the

superimposition on the Self. It has to be seen through to understand

the non-doer Self. The Self ever remains unaffected through all

actions and imagined inactions that are really actions. Actions are

thus jada as they don't pertain to the Self.

 

Constant remembrance and practising this eternal discriminative

knowledge is sAdhana. I, therefore, place this post under Gregji's

topic of discussion for this month. All serious seekers need to

always keep this verse in focus in all their dealings as doership

arising out of our ignorance is very very deep-rooted and not an easy

thing to erase.

 

A note of caution: I have been perusing Sw. GambhIrAnandaji's

translation of Sankara's interpretation of this verse at GItA

Supersite. It looks like no one has proof-read the material.

Reading and understanding it, therefore, is rather cumbersome.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Thank You nair-ji for linking this verse ( 4-18) from Srimad Bhagwat

Gita to this month's topic! and between me and you, there is an

important reason why i brought this great verse into the frameworK of

this discussion... in fact, it was sri. Ramachandran's comments on

Karma and Karma yoga that made me think long and hard ..... what is

the role of an advaitin in the day to day affairs of his life in

society?

 

Should an advaitin be merely content with knowing ( rather realizing)

the fact that 'all is brahman' and close his eyes and sit in a

meditaive posture and *do nothing * to alleviate the sufferings of

his fellow human beings- blaming everything to their Poorvika Karma

(their doings in previous births) or should he/she roll up his

sleeves and pants and jump into the field and ENGAZE in community

social work. ( karma yoga in its broader aspect )? ...

 

here i recall the words of Swami Vivekananda ....

 

"'Where shall we go to find God if we cannot see him in our own

hearts and in every living being?… You are God and so am I; who obeys

whom? Who worships whom? You are the highest temple of God. I would

rather worship you than any temple, image, or Bible! "

- Practical Vedanta, Part I

 

 

Swami Vivekananda describes the ideal of Karma Yoga as follows: "The

ideal human being is the one who amidst the deepest silence and the

biggest solitude finds the most intense activity, and the one who

amidst the most intense activity finds the silence and solitude of

the desert."

 

"The Karma yogi doesnÂ't need to believe in any doctrine. He may not

even believe in God, he may not ask himself what is the soul and he

may not be attracted by any metaphysical speculation at all"

(Practical Yoga).

 

So, Greg-ji , Nair-ji and all others ! TO me , the path of Karma yoga

is as divine as Bhakti yoga and even more soul satisfying !

 

and Greg-ji is absoluutely on target when he says...

"the mind are concerned, one can be a worshipper

of Jesus and be doing bhakti yoga. One can

be in the military onerous doing tasks to

benefits others, and be doing karma yoga.

 

The way I see it, the advaita-vedantic view

of these yogas doesn't place importance on

the particular image worshipped or served.

Rather, the emphasis is on the qualities of

one's mind that result from performing the

activities. Qualities such as the reduction

of egocentric motives, the reduction of a

scattered or lazy mind, the reduction of

huge emotional upheavals."

 

YES! one need not be a HIndu ... all one needs to be a Good Citizen

of the world ...

 

Be Good and DO Good

 

Vasudaiva Kutumbakam- The world is our family !

 

Thank you Nair-ji, once again, for an inspiring post and a unique

definition for the word 'yukta' ...

 

HAPPY SRI KRISHNA JANMASHTAMI TO ONE AND ALL!

 

 

Krishnaaya vaasudevaaya devakeenandanaaya cha;

Nandagopakumaaraaya govindaaya namo namah.

 

I bow again and again to Lord Krishna, son of Vasudeva, the delighter

of Devaki, the darling of Nandagopa, the protector of cows.

[Guest guest]

Namaste all,

 

i'm thankfull for the reply and that some discussions are going on

about the topic......

you wrote :

"> No, Sir. SAdhanA has a big place in advaita. It is not enough if

we

> simply sit saying that advaita is all about what I already am and I

> don't have to do anything about it. ....."

 

I beleive that all messages, and the fact that we are communicating

here ...IS because we don't "sit saying that advaita is about

what ...".

 

You talk about your past...your spiritual path....i'm sorry that i

didn't talk much about mine until now.

My spiritual path started maybe 20 years ago....and step by step i

get into advaita-vedanta philosophie by some studies and readings

about it.

After i had learned a technique for meditation....i experienced

that "all possible words" can't realy reach the consciousness of

Unity and Oneness.....meditation is necessary i think.

I agree that the "understanding" of some scriptures are necessary too

for a better knowledge about how to manage the spiritual path.

Spirituality is most important in my life....most important in life

is to find "who and why...we are"....

I knew that the words i wrote in past message will have "some

reactions"....because i know that some people prefer to discuss on a

more "intellectual" way.....with the help of scriptures and so on...

My words came from more an intuitiv kind of way....based on the last

weeks of spiritual path...

 

I wrote that i beleive that there are many kind of actions possible

for a "practice of advaita-vedanta.....means that yes, it's also

necessary to do something good in life.

 

wish you a good day and path

 

with love

 

Marc

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste all.

>

> Namaste all.

>

> I take `practice' in the context of our discussion to mean what is

> known as sAdhanA in Sanskrit.

>

> To be a good crciketeer, one needs daily practice. To be what, we

> need sAdhanA? As Maniji pointed out before, in advaita, the the so-

> called goal is something that is already possessed or what we

really

> are. But, unfortunately, most of us do not know that we have it.

> Thus, all the prescriptions of austerities, meditation,

contemplation

> etc.

>

> This implies that, before we embark on a course of sAdhanA, at

least,

> an intellectual appreciation of what we already are or what we

> already possess should be there as a desideratum. Lest, advaitic

> sAdhanA becomes aimless and purposeless. SAdhana lets the

> preliminary appreciation to <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=flower&v=56'>http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=flower&v=56">flower</a>

and shine forth as the real nature

> of Oneself.

>

> This is not to deride those who embark on strict austerities and

> sense control without a basic advaitic understanding. In fact, we

> see around us many accomplished souls who bagan without any

> foundation whatsoever and are now capable of unraveling vEdantic

> thoughts lucidly to their followers. Some of them are, in fact,

more

> effective than our current masters in advaita. Looks like,

> therefore, that ultimate realization of one's own nature is Grace

> bestowed on intellectually-enquiring minds as well as devout

> devotees. Hence, the talk of jnAna yOga, bhakti yOga etc. The

fact

> is that jnAna and bhakti are inter-complementary. Grace showers

> jnAna on the devotee. The one after jnAna ultimately realizes

> through Grace that jnAna is nothing other than bhakti.

>

> It seems that while the former lot works with a perfect

methodology,

> the latter has a strong sense of surrender and selflessness perhaps

> acquired from the past (births!). In either case, however, the

> inherent drive is the truth conveyed by SrImad Bhagavad GItA

verse:

> Sarva dharmAn parityAjya, mAmEkam sharaNam vraja… The former may

or

> may not need efforts depending on their past samskArA. The latter

is

> in a groove of spontaneity by default even as they keep invoking

> their ishtadEvatA.

>

> Sarva dharmAn parityAjya, therefore, sums up the whole of sAdhanA

> that is needed to know what one already is or one already has.

> Sankara's `TatwabhOdha' and Srimad Bhagavad GItA (in the section

> dealing with values particularly) give us a practical outline of

how

> we should go about discarding our false identifications to

> ultimately `realize' what we already are.

>

> That such texts are there, therefore, strongly suggest that sAdhanA

> is very much required in advaita. Our getting together in this

List

> and exchanging thoughts itself is an element of sAdhanA, although

> many of us are inclined to believe that no efforts are required for

> us to know what we actually are.

>

> In this context, I wish Members had been forthcoming to detail

their

> <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?

q=personal&v=56">personal</a> achievements with regard to sAdhanA.

To bell the cat, I

> strayed into advaita in 1977. I attribute that straying to some

past

> samskArA, for, before that, I was a materialistic rut. The only

> spiritual content that I had was some mythological knowledge of

> RAmayaNa MahA Bharata and BhAgavatam. As a boy, RAmayaNa used to

> fascinate me. I had a liking for Sanskrit too (again pUrva

samskAra

> perhaps). My familiarity with MahA BhArata and BhAgavatam was

mainly

> through the Kerala art-form called Katakali. We used to have

plenty

> of it annually during the Shivaratri festivals. Sw. Vivekananda

had

> moved me to some extent. So also, Sw. Yogananda Paramahamsa,

> whose `Autobiography of a Yogi' had me weeping perhaps out of self-

> pity. I was then in Bombay living a reckless life. English poets

> like William Wordsworth had also influenced my philosophical

leanings

> in <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?

q=college&v=56">college</a> days.

>

> In 1977, I began with Chinmayanandaji's interpretation of SrImad

> Bhagvad GItA and then went on to his commentaries on the important

> Upanishads. I also read some of his general works and began to

> foolishly believe that I knew too much. That belief was a big

> obstacle.

>

> In 1981 or thereabout, when some <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=friends&v=56">friends</a>

following Sw. Dayananda

> Saraswatiji approached me with the intention of organizing a

satsangh

> in our locality, I was rather blunt with them. I told them that I

> already knew what they were going to discuss and found no need to

> join in. Yet, I was persuaded to unwillingly attend the first

> satsangh led by one of Swamiji's disciples. That was a real eye-

> opener. From the first few meetings itself, I knew I had totally

> misunderstood advaita. Swamiji's logic and common-sense, as

revealed

> through the words of his disciple, had me enthralled.

>

> Thanks to all that and to further reading and listening, I can now

> claim without a bloated head that I have the fundamentals of the

> advaitic vision. Some of you may call me misguided. Yet, I know

> that no one can do that with the conviction that he or she is

> properly guided. I may still be far far short of knowing my real

> advaitic nature. However, I do now have a vision of it that fits

> well with common-sense and basic logic and, in that respect, I have

> traveled a lot ahead from my banal existence of the 1960s and 1970s.

>

> What brought about this metamorphosis from recklessness to the

> present modicum of sanity? Well, we may argue that it was all pre-

> ordained and Grace. I am scared to refute such point of view,

being

> myself a fatalist devotee of the Devi on whose Lotus Feet I am

> inclinded to place all my burdens and worries (lip-service eh?!).

> She has guided me, no doubt, and blessed me abundantly. Yet, for

the

> sake of this discussion, let me see if there was any self-effort

> involved admitting that even such self-effort is a Grace from Her.

> What did I do all these days from 1977?

>

> 1. Reading scriptural texts and their interpretations

> 2. Listening to preceptors

> 3. Almost continuous contemplation on the Truth

> 4. Chanting stOtrAs including nAmAvalis, contemplating on their

> meanings and interpreting them from the angle of my advaitic vision

> doing daily nIrAjanam to Her at dawn and dusk

> 5. Performing weekly Shri Cakara pUjA visualizing the cakra as

> the whole of creation and Her seated on the bindu as Consciousness

> 6. Attending satsanghs

> 7. Talking advaita to interested <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=friends&v=56">friends</a>

and relatives and

> benefiting from their insight

> 8. Writing down my thoughts here on Advaitin and other smilar

> Lists and assimilating the insights of other knowledgeable Members

> 9. Placing all my roles on Her Lotus Feet which to me are the

> pedestal of Advaitic Consciousness and invoking Her to conduct my

> life for me (She is naughty – she fails me often!)

> 10. Constantly reminding me of the advaitic truth of my real

> nature and endeavouring to separate me out of the call of senses,

> ego, mind and intellect in order to overcome the frailties of

banal

> existence and live a life of Oneness and <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=Love&v=56">Love</a> with

all

>

> This is all sAdhana in my <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?

q=personal&v=56">personal</a> opinion. The ego often raises its

> head in # 7 and 8. The last two are really difficult. I have no

tall

> claims with regard to them as I am still a mixture of many human

> failures. I get angry when my children are not what I want them to

> be. I have frequent disagreements and quarrels with my wife, which

> upset me. I have bad habits too. Yet, when at last, I retire to

Her

> Lotus Feet, I have a chastely feeling that I have moved much

farther

> away from what I had been before. Isn't that an accomplishment in

> itself? Would that have been possible at all without knowing the

> fundamentals of advaita and practising some sAdhanA?

>

> No, Sir. SAdhanA has a big place in advaita. It is not enough if

we

> simply sit saying that advaita is all about what I already am and I

> don't have to do anything about it. I have to necessarily keep

> reminding me about the Truth of me using common-sense and advaitic

> logic until my real nature spontaneously <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=flowers&v=56">flowers</a>

and shines. When it

> will is an unwarranted question as that real nature is

> an `alwaysness' outside the realm of temporality. I don't then have

> to `know' when it happens. What does it matter, as long as the

Lotus

> Feet are all that there is and my head is firmly placed on Them!?

> Whatever I say, write, do or practice is within <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=time&v=56">time</a>. A

prayer in

> <a href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?q=time&v=56">time</a>

to Timelessness! Why call it futility? Isn't futility afterall

> a temporal notion? What else can one do? Stop doing? Isn't that

a

> doing?

>

> I wrote this much in the fond hope that others may also be

> forthcoming with interesting accounts of their <a

href="http://www.ntsearch.com/search.php?

q=personal&v=56">personal</a> attempts at

> sAdhanA. That I am sure would enrich Gregji's discussion and make

it

> very educative, informative and interesting.

>

> Sorry if I have indulged.

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Dennis Travis.

 

Thanks for your interesting response (#24450)and telling us what you

are and have been doing. I agree with you fully.

 

I see Shri Travis has quoted my post in full. Scattered in the body

of the text are many web links. The initial impression was that Shri

Travis was drawing our attention to some of his own links where more

information about his spiritual sAdhana could be found. However, all

of them turned out to be advertisements and am sure Shri Travis would

not have knowingly inserted them. Is this a spam or new virus

problem? Ramji - will you kindly advise?

 

PraNAms to all.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Namaste to all respected members,

 

While discussing 'practice in advaita', shouldn't we

spend some time contemplating on the traditional

practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

 

If any of the members could explain how Shri sha~Nkara

handled the subject, it would be a real advaitic treat

and also a pointer in the right direction for all

advaitic students.

 

Just a suggestion.

 

Hari Om

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

At 10:47 AM 9/7/2004 +0100, Ranjeet Sankar wrote:

>Namaste to all respected members,

>

>While discussing 'practice in advaita', shouldn't we

>spend some time contemplating on the traditional

>practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

>

>If any of the members could explain how Shri sha~Nkara

>handled the subject, it would be a real advaitic treat

>and also a pointer in the right direction for all

>advaitic students.

>

>Just a suggestion.

 

 

===A very good suggestion at that! Has anyone actually

and deliberately followed Shri Shankara's guidelines on

sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

Thank you Ranjeet-Ji for asking a pertinent question:

 

Here are my thoughts on this because it includes the traditional

practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa -

 

aachaarya provides us this direction in his "shivamaanasapuujaa

stotra" and would like to quote just a few lines -

 

aatmaa tvaM girijaa matiH sahacaraH praaNaa shariiraM gR^iohaM |

puujaa te viShayopabhogaracanaa nidraa samaadhisthitiH ||

ha~ncaaraH padayoH pradaxiNavidhiH stotraNi sarvaa giro |

yadyatkarma karomi tattadakhilaM shambho tavaaraadhananam ||

 

Overall meaning and significance -

 

There is really no need to perform a separate puujaa ritual (a

process of purification). Let the normal daily routine things be all

that : walking = pradaxiNa, sleep = samaadhi and all the actions is

the overall araadhanaa. Here, aatmaa, the soul is you yourself (as

the lord shankar), girijaa is buddhi (intellect), within the house of

your body.

 

This provides the guidelines for advaitic staff for everybody.

aacharya must have used the puranic diety shankar because he

represents creation as well as destruction. In the

personal/individual practice/saadhanaa of advaita the responsibility

of progress or regress lies on your own shoulders.

 

Just imaging if theses principles get applied to a larger circle of

influence then the whole family, community, country, would be the

benefactor of salvation. Whether the issue is pollution, economic

prosperity, health etc. (abhyudaya).

 

I believe that this is our sanaatana dharma. shrii sukta ends

with "juhuyadaajyamanvaham" (anvaham aajjyam juhuyaata – meaning

practicing what has been said). Or prurusha suukta concludes

with "yaj~neya yaj~nam ayajanta devaa staani dhamaNi

prathamaanyaasan te ha naakaM mahimaanaH sacanta yatra puurve

saadhyaaH santi devaaH" (yaj~na (a method of purification &

creation) was oblated in that ya~jna and this was the dharma from the

beginning, which was practiced by svaadhyaayi and deva).

 

However, if we imagine this lord shankara as other than yourself

(dvaita) then the meaning of this composition gets lost because the

responsibility of salvation rests on the shoulders of the other party

(the God). This is an experiment to realize and practice "aham

brahmaashi" because it is practiced for the vasudeva kuTumbakam -

sarvabhuutahiiterataH

 

Regards,

 

Yadunath

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Ranjeet Sankar <thefinalsearch>

wrote:

> Namaste to all respected members,

>

> While discussing 'practice in advaita', shouldn't we

> spend some time contemplating on the traditional

> practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

>

> If any of the members could explain how Shri sha~Nkara

> handled the subject, it would be a real advaitic treat

> and also a pointer in the right direction for all

> advaitic students.

>

> Just a suggestion.

>

> Hari Om

_________ALL-NEW

Messenger - all new features - even more fun!

http://uk.messenger.

[Guest guest]

Sravana manana nididhyasana

 

 

When a disciple has performed some upasana or turned away to a great

extent from this materialistic world, then only we can engage in the

study of scriptures. It is only when purity of mind has been attained

through selfless devoted work, dedicated to the Divine, giving him

purity of heart, when the aspirant has been physically awakened by

Bhakti and has developed an attitude of renunciation as a fulfilment

of Sadhana catustaya (the fourfold requisites for an aspirant) he can

be introduced to the path of enquiry consisting of Sravana or hearing

the Truth, manana or reflection, nididhyasana or contemplation.

 

"The three bodies physical, subtle and casual are non-self and are

unreal. The Self, that is the Aham or I is quite different from them.

It is due to ignorance that the sense of Self or the I notion is

foisted in that which is not Self, and this indeed is bondage. Since

from ignorance arises bondage, from knowledge ensues liberation. To

know this from the guru is Sravana."

 

Sravana can be defined as, "listening to the sruti vakya from one's

guru who is himself a realized soul. Sravana and other means are

enjoined only in so far as they turn the seeker inwards and direct

him to stay his mind on Atman but the resultant knowledge is one's

own intuition of the Absolute and only the guru can grant it by his

grace."

[Guest guest]

friends,

 

In this Self-enquiry, an individual discriminates between the

enveloping sheaths or kosas and the in-dwelling Self and rejects the

former to know the residuum as Self. Thus it is not a process of mere

reasoning on the mental plane, but a diligent practice to make all

knowledge gathered during Sravana, a part of the consciousness by

constantly rejecting all that is non-self.

 

To fix the mind firmly in the heart until the forces of projection

and veiling due to rajas and tamas are destroyed and to awaken with

unswerving and vigilant concentration on the Self, ceaseless like the

unbroken flow of oil, "the true and cognate tendency which is

characteristic of the Atman and is expressed by saying `Aham

Brahmasmi' (I am Brahman) and Brahmaivaham (Brahman alone am I) is

termed Nididhyasana or Atmanusandhana that is constancy in the Self"

says Bhagavan Ramana in his introduction to the translation

of `Vivekachudamani'.

 

With the discriminative intellect as the instrument, the yogi

discards all thoughts of non-self and is steeped in an unbroken

current, of the Self. Sankara (in his commentary on Gita 5-25) says

that this is the highest form of yoga. In this contemplation, there

is a constant appreciation that Atman being the self-luminous and

innermost principle, by the light of which Buddhi knows all things,

cannot be the object of knowledge.

 

The person engaged in Nididhyasana constantly remembers that the

Witness Self is the external Seer and never the object of sight, that

it is existence and not the existent. Though Nididhyasana is an

exercise of the intellect, the realization of the true nature of

Reality Itself depends upon the Reality Itself and not on a man's

conception of It.

 

 

It is only through Sruti Pramana (the sacred scriptures which are

accepted as a valid source of ultimate knowledge) that one can by

concentrated efforts, realize the non-difference of the Atman and the

Brahman. Indeed Swami Vivekananada holds that "Vedas are the highest

revealed knowledge of all religions." In the scriptures one gets an

idea of what the Ultimate is only by indication. It is only after

learning the Truth from the Sruti that one can develop one's

reasoning (yukthi) to make it realizable as one's own experience of

It. The Vedas clearly deny what is not Brahman as `not this, not

this', and indicate Brahman by silence just as a bride says `not he,

not he' of others and remains silent when her choice is pointed out.

Brahman is not an object of the senses or of inference and is beyond

words. For the aspiring sadhaka only the scriptures can indicate the

Ultimate Reality while they also indicate it by such statements

like "Tat Tvam Asi"(That thou art). The process of discipline which

leads one to realize the import of this Mahavakya is the vedantic

discipline of Sravana, manana and Nididhyasana; but the final

realization is dependent on the guru's grace which one should aspire

with all sincerity.

cdr bvn

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Ranjeet Sankar

<thefinalsearch> wrote:

> Namaste to all respected members,

>

> While discussing 'practice in advaita', shouldn't we

> spend some time contemplating on the traditional

> practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

>

 

Namaste all,

 

That is it, Ranjit-ji. You have brought in the relevant ideas for

discussion of 'The place of practice'. Without going into the theory

of shravaNa, manana, and nidhidhyAsana, let me share with our group

my experience of this three-fold 'sAdhanA' for the goal of advaita-

siddhi.

 

Most important point. This three-fold sAdhanA never ends. That is

why even our maTAdhipatis listen intently to speeches by ordinary

people who give lectures in their presence.

>From childhood I have been trained by my father to get by heart

whatever I want to assimilate. This 'getting by heart' is at the

core of the Hindu religious training. I do not know how it is in the

other religions. But I see in Hinduism every one who 'practises'

Hinduism knows something -- maybe a few shlokas, maybe a whole text -

- by heart and which he or she keeps on repeating, if not daily, at

least periodically.

 

For example one of the things that went into my system was the

dakshiNAmUrti stotra. That 'went in', not as a substance, but as a

mere flow of words -- good poetry. That was when I was probably not

yet ten. I am sure i did not then know the meaning of a single word

there except to know that it was done with prostrations to the Guru-

God, in the beginning of Gita lessons which my father was giving.

 

Later, when I was in my twenties, when my world was full of

Mathematics, career options, raising of children, seeing the world,

and so on, by sheer habit I was repeating the dakshiNAmUrti stotra,

not regularly, but off and on. Particularly when I visited the

temple and when I was doing the pradakshiNas, my tongue would mutter

the words of the stotra and now and then some meaning would spark

up -- not because I made any efforts for it but because of osmosis,

the process of assimilation from the environment. This is where

satsangh helps.

 

But more than that. By the time of my thirties I had heard a few

lectures on Vedanta and had begun myself to study some Vedanta. My

father had passed away but his words during his UpanyAsas were

constantly ringing in my ears. (shravaNa, by proxi!). But the actual

study of Vedanta books was very minimal, because the pursuit of good

mathematics as a profession is a 24/7 regimen and so it does

notleave much time to stray outside, even if it be Vedanta, which

was certainly near to my heart, though not 'nearest' at that point

of time. But what went on -- probably because of the blessings of my

father and many other elders whom I respected -- what went on

within the mind was a constant 'manana' on the shlokas and other

relevant things. I had also attempted at that time to study

mAnasollAsa -- the commentary on dadshiNAmUrti stotra. But because

of the preoccupation with mathematics, I did not go beyond the first

three shlokas in that commentary, though I had browsed through the

rest of the commentary.

 

Now starts the manana habit. Every time I go through the shlokas

mentally, slowly it would open out, not in terms of the meanings,

but in terms of the questions that it raises in the mind and the

mind gets into a terrific mood of urge to know the answer to those

questions. If my father would have been alive at that time I would

have just asked him those questions; but that was not to be. And I

had no time (! ) to go to to other scholars or experts to ask --

because there was the princess of mathematics with whom I was

steadily dating, to make her my Queen! She would not brook

me 'straying away'!

 

So the nidhidhyAsana preocess of contemplation on the meaning of the

shlokas starts. This process of contemplation on the meanings, the

search for the meaning and content, the further assimilation of more

ideas on the subject, -- this process went on throughout my life.

Only as time passed on , the fascination for the Queen (of

mathematics) and for the attendant material prosperity and progress,

slowly waned as I reached my forties and fifties. In the

meantime 'shravaNa' also continued with more and more vigour and

that provided matter for further nidhidhyAsanA.

 

Not that I have explained everything. But that gives you a glimpse

of what could help.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

Thanks profvk-ji for the charming and informative real-life examples, which also

bear Ranjit-ji's question. This is the kind of post I was hinting that maybe

someone, perhaps Sri Vaidyanathan, might give on bhakti as well.

 

--Greg

 

 

At 12:24 AM 9/11/2004 +0000, V. Krishnamurthy wrote:

>advaitin, Ranjeet Sankar

><thefinalsearch> wrote:

>> Namaste to all respected members,

>>

>> While discussing 'practice in advaita', shouldn't we

>> spend some time contemplating on the traditional

>> practice of sravaNa, manana and nidhidhyAsa?

>>

>

>Namaste all,

>

>That is it, Ranjit-ji. You have brought in the relevant ideas for

>discussion of 'The place of practice'. Without going into the theory

>of shravaNa, manana, and nidhidhyAsana, let me share with our group

>my experience of this three-fold 'sAdhanA' for the goal of advaita-

>siddhi.

 

....

[Guest guest]

namaste all,

 

prof vk has explained it in the correct manner. i am too small to

stand in front of this great people. but i will add what came in my

mind.

 

 

The way you speak of Bhakti here, it remains mysterious, almost as a

gift resulting from grace. The examples you give are examples of

people who already feel great devotion. Can you say a few words about

bhakti-related practices that the aspirant may do which can intensify

the devotion, increase to the precepts of the guru, or to one's

chosen image.

 

For example, what about someone who understands the examples such as

you cite, who sees the potential value of bhakti, but who does not

*feel* it? And also,

this person might not have a likely candidate for the focus of their

devotion.

As far as practices go, what would you suggest this person undertake?

I've

spoken to many people over the years for whom these things are true.

 

Pranams,

There is nothing mysterious about Bhakti. Yes in a way it can be

considered as a gift from lords grace from this materialistic world.

Even to reach that level one has to strive hard. Bhakti has to be

cultivated and it cannot come all of a sudden one day. In India

bhakti is cultivated right from the childhood by the parents. I am

sure other religious beliefs do have such practise. But there is a

lot of difference in Hinduism and others in that Hinduism is more

flexible and easy to follow for all and it has various approaches to

the Lord.

 

Which is the path to reach the Supreme Being? Who will show us that

path? The Guru will show it. The good and wise people will show it if

we cultivate their company. Then we will reach the Supreme goal of

existence and fulfill the purpose of human birth. All else is

evanescent, transitory. Those include the body, life, the world and

all things that relate to them such as houses, cattle, and pompous

conveyances. You can reach the greatest heights in the world-

astronauts visited the moon even! But all leads to no lasting result.

 

There is a wise saying "If one would look inside oneself, one can see

the whole universe". There fore, one should strive to realise the

Atman within, as the goal of life, reject everything else and be in a

state of continuous devotion to God.

 

"They swim the sea of births, the `Monarch's foot who gain;

None others reach the shore of Being's mighty main".

 

Says Thirukkural.

 

Human birth has been granted to us by God only for this purpose. We

should search and find out by what way, by what disciplines and with

whose help we can escape from the chain of births. This is the gist

of all that I have said above.

 

In bhakti para bhakti or higher Bhakti is considered the noblest; in

yoga para yoga is the best; untrammeled Bliss in the elf is the great

height of Gnana or Knowledge.

 

By Bhakti is meant the clinging to the Supreme One, giving up all

attachments to the body, life and worldly objects. Shining as the

inner light of consciousness in all beings and illuminating all the

phenomenal universe, the Supreme Lord is its One Support and Power

behind it. To stand clinging to Him, knowing Him and seeing Him as

immanent in and fully pervading all beings, like ghee in milk, fire

and heat in wood, oil in sesame is called Para Bhakti or higher

Bhakti. Outer and external bhakti or devotion is evidenced in nine

well-known forms such as hearing, singing and constant remembrance of

Lord's names, forms and glories, service to all living beings seeing

Him in all, image-worship, prostration, devotion as a servant, love

as a friend and surrender to Him of one's all from his body to the

soul.

 

To those who have climbed to the height of Para Bhakti, the Supreme

reveals Itself by Itself and this phase is known as Para Yoga or

higher Yoga.

 

I can only say the following as far as your question on pragmatic way.

 

To one who is steeped in Bhakthi, the world and its teeming life

appear as God Himself in His Infinite forms. To him all happenings in

the world appear as the sport of the Lord. Worshipping the Lord in

His manifested form within one's heart will efface all thoughts

welling up in one's mind.

You should first integrate your mind, word and thought, make it one-

pointed and visualize your Ishta-Devata as standing before you.

Having done this, you should perform japa by repeating the mantra,

which signifies the particular Devata. It is advisable to do this in

solitude in a room.

To attain divine grace, meditation is more important than prodigious

learning. Yearning is more important than skill in discussion; tears

flowing from eyes are more important than verses recited by the

tongue and worship is more beneficial than research into books.

 

Pranams

 

Cdr BVN

[Guest guest]

Dear All:

 

In puraaNa the mother bhakti is described of having two sons.

 

1. j~naana

 

2. vairaagya

 

(unfortunately I do not reacall the specific reference)

 

sueshvara (aacharya's disciple) in his graNtha "naiShkarmasiddhi"

says that vadic karma are not necessary for moxa, perhaps,

performance of such karma results indirect effects. It is the

aatmasaaxaatakaa (self experience) that results in the erosion of "I-

ness" and all the dvita-bhaavana disappears. Then he continues to

say that lack of such knowledge of ultimate truth (tri-kaala-

abadhita) is avidyaa and the dissolution of this avidyaa is moxa.

 

Regards,

 

Yadunath

 

 

advaitin, "B VAIDYANATHAN"

<vaidyanathiyer> wrote:

> namaste all,

>

> prof vk has explained it in the correct manner. i am too small to

> stand in front of this great people. but i will add what came in my

> mind.

>

>

> The way you speak of Bhakti here, it remains mysterious, almost as

a

> gift resulting from grace. The examples you give are examples of

> people who already feel great devotion. Can you say a few words

about

> bhakti-related practices that the aspirant may do which can

intensify

> the devotion, increase to the precepts of the guru, or to one's

> chosen image.

>

>

> Pranams

>

> Cdr BVN