THE PLACE OF (other) PRACTICE IN ADVAITA VEDANTA

[Guest guest]

Most Respected Ananda-ji!

 

Another brilliant post from your devotional 'pen'

 

You state at the end of your post ...

 

"But I must confess that this is a tricky and delicate issue, by

which I am much bewildered. Perhaps I should not be speaking of it

at all."

 

Ananda-ji! On the contrary, learned members like you should 'speak'

more often for we beginners get real insights on ADVAITA only when

you share your experiences on the path! Part of Sadhana is also

about 'viniyoga' - dissemination of knowledge and information and

once you share your knowledge, others can use it in their daily

Sadhana also ( that is prayoga)

 

Yoga- viniyoga- prayoga - three aspects of sadhana !

 

(This is what is meant by Loka sangraha)

 

you state ....

 

( As I read this ironical stanza, it does not say that pleasure should

be avoided, nor does it call for any giving up of effort to succeed,

nor does it favour quiet inactivity that lets time and opportunity

pass by unutilized. Instead, in the first three lines, it points out

quite the opposite -- that our worldly sufferings result from

unconsumated pleasures, from insufficient efforts and from missed

opportunities.)

 

Exactly ...

 

This is the view of the Tantras ...

 

You said it " unconsummated" pleasures...

 

TANTRA considers the Universe as being a MAGICAL REALITY, in

contradistinction with VEDANTA, which says Universe is an illusion

(MAYA).

 

 

The supreme state is not attained by turning away from the world

(which is the attitude of other spiritual systems that consider the

world as an illusion) but by realizing that the Absolute manifests in

all things.

 

"One can fall due to the earth, another one can, without doubt, raise

himself with the help of the earth."

 

YES!!!

 

THAT IS WHY sage VISHWAMITRA at the first sight of a pretty APSARA ,

Menaka, lost his 'cool' and she was instrumental in disturbing his

yoga sadhana !

 

AND THEN YOU GO ON TO SAY ...

 

(Thus, by facing up to things, even death and destruction can be seen

more and more positively -- as expressions of a self-reliant life

which is thereby seen doing away with all of the seeming encumbrances

that our mistaken views have heaped upon it. Paradoxically, it's only

by facing up to things that true renunciation and dispassion come

about. )

 

YES! INDEED! you be in the midst of the 'world' and be not affected

by it! That is the symbolism of the Lotus flower! BE in a MUDDY POND

AND YET NOT BE AFFECTED BY THE 'DIRT' AND THE MUD surrounding the

lotus!

 

and talking of Dying !!!!

 

"The happiness of the drop is to die in the river."

 

sufi poet Kabir expresses this beautifully in the followng poem

 

I've filled the vessel of my body

With water luminous and pure;

With my body, mind

And the vigor of youth

I drink it; I drink it,

Yet thirst for more.

My mind turned inwards,

It plunged into the sea

Of love and bliss

And it bathes with joy;

It tries to fathom Thee:

It tries

But does not succeed

For Thou art perfect,

My merciful Lord,

While mind is not.

Searching for Him, O friend,

Kabir lost himself;

When the drop has merged

Into the Ocean,

How can the drop be found?

 

Searching

And searching

For Him, O friend,

Kabir lost himself;

The Ocean has merged

Into the drop,

Now how can the Ocean

Be found?

 

Kabir, "The Drop and the Ocean"

 

Be a drop and gain the ocean!

 

regards

[Guest guest]

Hello Raj-ji, Adi-ji, Ranjeet-ji,

 

The status of the various yogas - you are having the conversation on this topic

I'd hoped would arise!

 

Pranaams,

 

--Greg

[Guest guest]

There are two aspects of god, one with form and the other without

form (sakara and nirakara). The formless god is beyond the reach of

the ignorant, those who have not progressed sufficiently in spiritual

knowledge. It is to meet the needs of such people, that Hinduism has

in its pantheon thirty-three crores of gods who are all with form.

If, with implicit faith, such people worship any of the aspects of

god with form, believing them to be real, the god without form who is

immanent in the core of everyone's being, will awaken their higher

conciousness (the sixth sense), and he will be experienced as supreme

knowledge. There are attributes to describe god without form. He is

ever-existent, unchanging, indestructible and devoid of special

qualities. He is supreme Brahman, who could be worshipped both as god

with form and without form. Idols of gods are installed in Hindu

temples so that the fickle mind can fasten itself for support on the

god seen as idol and conceive of god in the particular form of the

visible idol. By constant meditation on the form of the idol, the

mind becomes steady. The nama (name) of the particular deity should

be continiously recited in the mind. If this discipline is persisted

in, there will come a time when god without form will get

transformed, and will be realized in the heart as the supreme

witness, god without form.

 

The supreme creator, first created sanatkumara and the three other

kumaras, so that they could show to mankind the way to god-

realisation. Then he created the great rishis. To instruct the rishis

in the way of self-realization, the Supreme Being appeared as guru or

teacher in the DAKSHINAMURTHI INCARNATION. AS IS WELL-KNOWN, THIS

AVATAR, APPEARS AS A SEATED FIGURE FACING SOUTH, KEEPING SILENT AND

SHOWING THE `GNANAMUDRA', by joining the first finger and the thumb

of the right hand and leaving the three fingers free. The symbolism

is this; the higher conciousness cannot be explained in words,

meditation in silence is the most effective form of communication.

The union of the jiva (the individual soul) and the paramatman (the

universal soul) is expressed by the joining pf the thumb and the

first finger. The three fingers left free represent the need to give

up egoism, desire and illusion, as the indispensable condition before

spiritual progress can be attained. When this avatar incarnated in

the land of bharata, he is said to have sat under a banyan tree. With

the lapse of time, people again sank into ignorance and forgot the

old teachings. To instruct them again, the Supreme Being decided to

incarnate in the world. This time he took human form as Adi

Shankaracharya, and was born at a place called Kaladi. The priceless

teachings were once again given to mankind by the great Acharya.

 

There is no need for tantras, yantras or mantras. What is needed is

inner bhakti. Only this is puissant. Do not dissipate your thoughts

on speculation. Live with a conviction that there is a god above. Do

not speak ill of the elders.

[Guest guest]

dear all!

 

a most learned member of this forum sent me the follwing links

 

please note...

 

Adi Shankara was beyond name and form (nAma-rUpa)! He was

Bhagavan, so He was beyond any designation of jnani or

bhakta (he was pUrNa).

 

Shankara Gita Bhashya can be accessed at:

 

advaitinBhagawad%20Gita%

20Commentaries%20and%20References/Shankara1/

 

All the Shankara Matha-adhipatis, and Ramana, had no

doubts about the authorship of Vivekachudamani:

 

http://www.srisharada.com/vivekachudamani.htm

 

.......

 

Thank you for this valuable information!

 

YES!

 

Adi shankara was Lord Siva incarnate. How and why did i forget this ?

Silly me!!!

 

Na Punyam Na Papam Na Sowkhyam Na Dhukkam

Na Manthro Na Theertham Na Vedha Na Yajnaaha

Na Aham Bhojanam Naiva Bhojyam Na Bhokthaa

Chidaanandaroopaha Sivoham Sivoham

 

You are not virtue or vice, not pleasure or pain,

Not sacred word or pilgrimage, not Veda or sacrifice,

You are not the enjoyable or the enjoyer,

But you are the embodiment of eternal

 

Bliss (Ananadam),

Knowledge (Chit)

and Auspiciousness (Sivam).

 

JAYA JAYA SHANKARA!

 

Hara Hara Shankara!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adiji.

 

My comments are in below relevant extracts from your post.

___________________________

> i am going to post some verses from Srimad Bhagvat Gita

>

> and i know Adi Shankara wrote a commentary on the Gita . Please let

> me know how Shankara Bhagvadapada interpreted these verses.

>

> bhaktyA mAm abhijAnAti yAvAn yaz cA 'smi tattvataH,

> tato mAM tattvato jnAtvA vizate tada anantaram"

>

> (Bhagavad Gita 18.55)

>

> "By devotion (Divine Love) he knows Me in truth, What and Who I am;

> then having known Me in truth, he forthwith enters into Me."

 

 

 

[Kindly visit Geeta Supersite where several commentaries including

the one by Sankara (translations) are available.]

 

_

> another verse

>

> (Bhagwad Gita 11.55)

> mat-karma-krn mat-paramo

> mad-bhaktah sanga-varjitah

> nirvairah sarva-bhutesu

> yah sa mam eti pandava

>

> My dear Arjuna, he who engages in My pure devotional service, free

> from the contaminations of fruitive activities and mental

> speculation, he who works for Me, who makes Me the supreme goal of

> his life, and who is friendly to every living being—he certainly

> comes to Me.

>

> ( Bhagwat Gita 7.26)

>

> Bhagwat Gita 18.65 )

>

> man-mana bhava mad-bhakto

> mad-yaji mam namaskuru

> mam evaishyasi satyam te

> pratijane priyo 'si me

>

> Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your

> homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise

you

> this because you are My very dear friend.

_________

 

[in these verses, you are asked to do something, work for something,

become something, worship something and offer something. Can you

perform these actions without karma yOga - the science of proper or

right action? The words 'pure', 'free from the contaminations of

fruitive activities and mental speculation' indicate karma yOga.

Bhakti therefore is inherent in karma yOga as it is in samnyAsa - the

only two niSthAs.]

______

>

> well, Ranjit-ji and Nair-ji ? Only a Saguna-Upasaka can pen such

> beautiful lines on Lord Krishna!!!

________

 

[From the transactional plane on which I am operating, I would rather

say that a jnAni penned it for saguna upasakAs. Advaitically, the

jnAni is within you and it is through Grace that you see him having

written all this and again it is through Grace only that you can have

a right understanding of what you see as having been written. Just,

think of the millions of other samsArins who haven't had this great

privilege! From Sankara's point of view, because he is a jnAni,

there is no point of view at all. Then what to speak of saguna

upasakAs whom he is alleged to have targeted!]

 

[Adiji, kindly note the following:

 

1. There are two niSthAs (not three or more!) specifically mentioned

in SrImad Bhagavad GItA of prastAnatraya, whcih are samnyAsa (jnAna

yOga) and karma yOga.

2. Bhakti is spontaneously inherent in both as jnAna is bhakti in

the former and karmAs in the latter cannot be performed without an

attitude of bhakti.

3. Thus, bhakti is not a third niStha as it is made out to be.

4. If you read my posts carefully, I haven't questioned bhakti

anywhere. If fact, I have all along laid great stress on it as I

myself am a bhakta. The attempt is only to understand it properly and

assign it its rightful place in our systematization of knowledge as

per scriptures.]

 

[Ranjeetji said in one of his earlier posts: "bhakti is the first and

foremost religion of India". I would rather reword this statement

and say bhakti is the only religion of all religions in the world.

But the wise ancient Indians worked out a superb, rational

methodology for it and firmly incorporated it into the two niSthAs

for everyone to follow, if they choose to do so wherever they are or

belong on this globe. Thus, you choose either of the two niSthAs,

bhakti adamantly follows you. You can't escape it as it results from

right understanding; not imposed, not from fear of eternal damnation

or heavenly wrath but because it is your real nature.]

_____________________

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Sri Nairji, Ranjeetji, Adi Behnji and others

 

Namaste,

 

Knowledge, (“Aham Brahmasmi” and more than that “Tat Twam Asi”) alone helps one

to recognize and appreciate that one is already Mukta i.e. liberated, and

everything is worshippable. “Gnanadeva Kaivalyam”, “Tyagenaka Amrutatwam”, etc.

clearly vouch for that. Above all, bondage is the result of Ignorance and the

one and only anti-dote for ignorance is Knowledge.

 

Once one recognizes and appreciates that he is already Mukta, on the dropping of

ignorance, he cannot be but a Bhakta, and that Bhakti is IMHO true Bhakti.

 

I know many Bhaktas who have Ishta Daivas, but unfortunately, they do not even

recognize other deities. While once in Sabari Malai, one devotee called out

“Hare Krishna Guruvayoorappa” and the Guruswami reprimanded him by saying “How

can you call Guruvayoorappa here, Shout Swamiye Saranam Ayyappa”. I have come

across many such experiences.

 

On the whole Bhaktas without Knowledge does not seem to accept and accommodate

and many such Bhaktas to my knowledge still holds to “untouchability”.

 

Further, Bhakti without Knowledge, is always backed by “notions”. That maybe the

reason for religious intolerance which we see now a days, and all the conversion

that is going on through love (?) or even through terrorism. Knowledge swallows

all religions. Gnani (i.e. Knower of Brahman and Atma as one and the same)

cannot be but a Bhakta and may I say a true Bhakta. There is no doubt about

that. “Tat Twam Asi” makes one worship even non-sentients let alone sentients.

 

In Sabari Malai everything is accepted and recognized by devotees as “Swami”

like Driver Swami, Gover Swami (for donkey), Peria Swami (Elephant), Pampa Swami

(Pampa River), etc. In front of the Sanctum it is written in big neon letters

“Tat Twam Asi”.

 

In this context, it will be interesting to note that in one or two temples

established by Sri Narayana Guru (I have only heard of it and I am not sure

whether he established them) the presiding deity is a big mirror, with the idea

to convey “Atma Darshanam itself is Eswara Darshanam” i.e. Vision of the Self is

the Vision of the Almighty. As we know, here Vision does not mean just a

physical seeing but the Knowledge of the Self.

 

Warm regards and Hari Om

 

 

Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair wrote:[Ranjeetji said in one of

his earlier posts: "bhakti is the first and

foremost religion of India". I would rather reword this statement

and say bhakti is the only religion of all religions in the world.

But the wise ancient Indians worked out a superb, rational

advaitin/

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

vote. - Register online to vote today!

 

 

[Guest guest]

Mani-ji!

 

Thank you so much for a heart-warming post.

 

Yes! you say

 

(I know many Bhaktas who have Ishta Daivas, but unfortunately, they

do not even recognize other deities. While once in Sabari Malai, one

devotee called out "Hare Krishna Guruvayoorappa" and the Guruswami

reprimanded him by saying "How can you call Guruvayoorappa here,

Shout Swamiye Saranam Ayyappa". I have come across many such

experiences.)

 

this is true of bhaktas in the " lower stages" - those who practice

Gauna bhakti!!! My krishna against Your siva your shakti etc!!!!

 

Please read carefully what swami Vivekananda says on this ....

 

" The one great advantage of bhakti is that it is the easiest and the

most natural way to reach the great divine end in view; its great

disadvantage is that in its lower forms it oftentimes degenerates

into hideous fanaticism. The fanatical crew in Hinduism, or

Mohammedanism, or Christianity, have always been almost exclusively

recruited from these worshippers on the lower planes of Bhakti. That

singleness of attachment (Nishtha) to a loved object, without which

no genuine love can grow, is very often also the cause of the

denunciation of everything else. All the weak and undeveloped minds

in every religion or country have only one way of loving their own

ideal, i.e. by hating every other ideal. Herein is the explanation of

why the same man who is so lovingly attached to his own ideal of God,

so devoted to his own ideal of religion, becomes a howling fanatic as

soon as he sees or hears anything of any other ideal. This kind of

love is somewhat like the canine instinct of guarding the master's

property from intruders; only the instinct of the dog is better than

the reason of man, for the dog never mistakes its master for an enemy

in whatever dress he may come before it. Again, the fanatic loses all

power of judgment. Personal considerations are in his case of such

absorbing interest that to him it is no question at all of what a man

says -- whether it is right or wrong; but the one thing he is always

particularly careful to know is who says it. The same man who is

kind, good, honest, and loving to people of his own opinion, will not

hesitate to do the vilest deeds when they are directed against

persons beyond the pale of his own religious brotherhood.

Gauni and Para Bhakti But this danger exists only in that stage

of Bhakti which is called the preparatory (Gauni). When Bhakti has

become ripe and has passed into that form which is called supreme

(Para), no more is there any fear of these hideous manifestations of

fanaticism; that soul which is overpowered by this higher form of

bhakti is too near the God of Love to become an instrument for the

diffusion of hatred. "

 

http://www.hinduism.fsnet.co.uk/namoma/sayings_swamiji/III_BY_p31_Defi

nition_ of_Bhak... - 13k - Cached

 

and Mani-ji you go on to say ...

 

(On the whole Bhaktas without Knowledge does not seem to accept and

accommodate and many such Bhaktas to my knowledge still holds

to "untouchability". )

 

i am sorry to say this is true of Some so called Jnanis too!

Publicly, they come to the Advaitin group and loudly proclaim 'aham

brahamasmi' and privately they support Caste system and decry the

work of Narayana guru ! what does that tell you? Merely saying 'aham

brahmasmi' or 'tat twam asi' does not make one a brahmajnani!!! don't

you agree ?

 

You are 100% right in what you say but there is a wide gap between

Practice and preaching.

 

Mahatma Gandhi was a true Yogi in all senses of the word ... He was a

bhakti yogim, a karma yogi and of course a jnana yogi!!! for Gandhiji

he knew THAT jNANA AND BHAKTI ARE INSEPERABLE and are two wings of

the same Bird!

 

Mani-ji, you make some very good points.

 

But, i still maintain that in lower levels of Bhakti, one tends to be

a fanatic . But in higher forms of bhakti, a parama bhakta is equal

to a parama jnani ! How can someone who loves Ishwara not love his

Creation? similarly , how can a atma jnani or a brahma jnani not

realize that the same atma that resides him also reside in

an 'untouchable' ...in both cases, it is 'vidya' that Liberates!!!!

 

as our sufi bhakta Kabir das ji sings

 

Where do you search me?

I am with you

Not in pilgrimage, nor in icons

Neither in solitudes

Not in temples, nor in mosques

Neither in Kaba nor in Kailash

I am with you o man

I am with you

Not in prayers, nor in meditation

Neither in fasting

Not in yogic exercises

Neither in renunciation

Neither in the vital force nor in the body

Not even in the ethereal space

Neither in the womb of Nature

Not in the breath of the breath

Seek earnestly and discover

In but a moment of search

Says Kabir, Listen with care

Where your faith is, I am there.

 

Bottom line is Faith!

 

 

thank you once again, Mani-ji ! I LUV YOUR POSTS.

[Guest guest]

Hello VAIDYANATHAN,

 

Can you relate what is said below to the philosophy of advaita-vedanta?

 

--Greg

 

At 02:13 AM 9/21/2004 +0000, B VAIDYANATHAN wrote:

 

 

 

>There are two aspects of god, one with form and the other without

>form (sakara and nirakara). The formless god is beyond the reach of

>the ignorant, those who have not progressed sufficiently in spiritual

>knowledge. It is to meet the needs of such people, that Hinduism has

>in its pantheon thirty-three crores of gods who are all with form.

>If, with implicit faith, such people worship any of the aspects of

>god with form, believing them to be real, the god without form who is

>immanent in the core of everyone's being, will awaken their higher

>conciousness (the sixth sense), and he will be experienced as supreme

>knowledge. There are attributes to describe god without form. He is

>ever-existent, unchanging, indestructible and devoid of special

>qualities. He is supreme Brahman, who could be worshipped both as god

>with form and without form. Idols of gods are installed in Hindu

>temples so that the fickle mind can fasten itself for support on the

>god seen as idol and conceive of god in the particular form of the

>visible idol. By constant meditation on the form of the idol, the

>mind becomes steady. The nama (name) of the particular deity should

>be continiously recited in the mind. If this discipline is persisted

>in, there will come a time when god without form will get

>transformed, and will be realized in the heart as the supreme

>witness, god without form.

>

>The supreme creator, first created sanatkumara and the three other

>kumaras, so that they could show to mankind the way to god-

>realisation. Then he created the great rishis. To instruct the rishis

>in the way of self-realization, the Supreme Being appeared as guru or

>teacher in the DAKSHINAMURTHI INCARNATION. AS IS WELL-KNOWN, THIS

>AVATAR, APPEARS AS A SEATED FIGURE FACING SOUTH, KEEPING SILENT AND

>SHOWING THE `GNANAMUDRA', by joining the first finger and the thumb

>of the right hand and leaving the three fingers free. The symbolism

>is this; the higher conciousness cannot be explained in words,

>meditation in silence is the most effective form of communication.

>The union of the jiva (the individual soul) and the paramatman (the

>universal soul) is expressed by the joining pf the thumb and the

>first finger. The three fingers left free represent the need to give

>up egoism, desire and illusion, as the indispensable condition before

>spiritual progress can be attained. When this avatar incarnated in

>the land of bharata, he is said to have sat under a banyan tree. With

>the lapse of time, people again sank into ignorance and forgot the

>old teachings. To instruct them again, the Supreme Being decided to

>incarnate in the world. This time he took human form as Adi

>Shankaracharya, and was born at a place called Kaladi. The priceless

>teachings were once again given to mankind by the great Acharya.

>

>There is no need for tantras, yantras or mantras. What is needed is

>inner bhakti. Only this is puissant. Do not dissipate your thoughts

>on speculation. Live with a conviction that there is a god above. Do

>not speak ill of the elders.

>

>

>

>

>

>Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

>Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

>Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

> Links

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Nair-ji for taking the time to respond to my post. I

enjoyed reading every word in your post.

 

Verse 31 of Adi Sankara's (?) Viveka Chudamani says

 

" Devotion is chief among the means of liberation. Devotion lies in

wholehertedly seeking to know one's true nature. "

 

The question is how do you come to know one's True Nature?

 

In the Isa Upanishad, The seeker first prays to Brahman, " The face

of truth is hidden behind your golden lid, O Sun. May you remove the

lid so that I may see the golden Truth !" And when the request is

granted and the splendor manifests Itself in him he, submerged in

pure bliss, lets out these words, "In truth I am Him."

 

Nair-ji, i have a question for you !

 

HOW would you interpret this verse in isha upanishad ?

 

"Into blinding darkness enter those who worship ignorance and into

greater darkness those who worship knowledge alone. "

 

i think the response to this question may help us remove the Lid!!!

 

Our beloved sankara bhagvadapada sings in his Jivanmuktananda lahari

 

Visualising his own pure form of Siva (the auspicious) sometimes as

formless, And sometimes with form owing to association with gunas,

sometimes looking on in wonder at these, and at times delighted

within; The sage, with ignorance dispelled by Guru's grace (dIksá),

is not at all deluded.

 

www.kamakoti.org

 

but maybe we are still miles away from this kind of realization! so

SAGUNA upasana is the instrument to reach that ultmate state of

bliss? just wondering ...

 

love and regards

[Guest guest]

-

"adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16

<advaitin>

Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:35 AM

Re: THE PLACE OF (other) PRACTICE IN ADVAITA VEDANTA

 

 

Thank you Nair-ji for taking the time to respond to my post. I

enjoyed reading every word in your post.

 

Verse 31 of Adi Sankara's (?) Viveka Chudamani says

 

" Devotion is chief among the means of liberation. Devotion lies in

wholehertedly seeking to know one's true nature. "

 

The question is how do you come to know one's True Nature?

******************************************************

Adiji, I just posted the following on HS and RM. It may be relevant here.

 

 

24 January, 1935

 

W.Y. Evans-Wentz, an English research scholar of Oxford University

(Translator of the Book of the Dead and Life of Milarepa), brought a letter

of introduction from Paul Brunton and arrived on a visit. An interesting and

illuminating conversation followed about Yoga, Jnana, time, food, work, etc.

Here is one question.

 

W.Y. Evans Wentz: What is practice?

 

Bhagavan: Constant search for the "I", the source of ego. Find out, "Who am

I?" The pure "I" is the reality, the Absolute Existence-consciousness-Bliss.

When that is forgotten, all miseries crop up; when that is held fast,

miseries do not affect the person.

 

W.Y. Evans Wentz: Does Maharshi enter the Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

 

Bhagavan: If the eyes are closed, it is Nirvikalpa; if open, it is (though

differentiated, still in absolute repose) Savikalpa. The ever present state

is the natural state sahaja.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Harsha" wrote

[...]

> W.Y. Evans Wentz: Does Maharshi enter the Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

>

> Bhagavan: If the eyes are closed, it is Nirvikalpa; if open, it is

(though

> differentiated, still in absolute repose) Savikalpa. The ever

present state

> is the natural state sahaja.

 

hariH OM! harsha-ji, friends..

 

leaving off on topic i'd been on since my last main postings, i think

bhagavan's reference to the savikalpa state is of particular

importance. (the rest is the essential teaching and becomes obvious

in time.)

 

implication once again that maya-shakthi is inscrutable, indescribable

(anirvachaniya), cyclically eternal and unknowable. yet within it

there's a relative meaning--no less than isvara as anthropomorphic

conception of the saguna brahman Itself. implications further there

is purpose in world, regardless if one does or doesn't practically

support. no fault whatsoever.

 

i would require much more time and space to present what i'm leading

up to here. literally and figuratively with a double entendre thrown

in! :-)

 

the message is perhaps cryptic or i just gave a good imitation of

professor irwin cory theorizing nothing. (that's a quick way out! :-)

 

really, just wanted to say hi and namaste to all! you're forever in

my thoughts.

 

frank

[Guest guest]

Dearest Frankji:

 

What a delight to hear from you! Here is another one you will enjoy.

 

Will send copies to RM and HS.

****************************

 

Mr. Evans Wentz: What does the Maharshi think of universal illusion (Maya)?

 

Bhagavan: What is Maya? It is only Reality.

 

Evans Wentz: Is not Maya illusion?

 

Bhagavan: Maya is used to signify manifestations of Reality. Thus Maya is

only Reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

"frank maiello" <egodust

<advaitin>

Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:00 PM

Re: THE PLACE OF (other) PRACTICE IN ADVAITA VEDANTA

 

> advaitin, "Harsha" wrote

> [...]

>

> > W.Y. Evans Wentz: Does Maharshi enter the Nirvikalpa Samadhi?

> >

> > Bhagavan: If the eyes are closed, it is Nirvikalpa; if open, it is

> (though

> > differentiated, still in absolute repose) Savikalpa. The ever

> present state

> > is the natural state sahaja.

>

> hariH OM! harsha-ji, friends..

>

> leaving off on topic i'd been on since my last main postings, i think

> bhagavan's reference to the savikalpa state is of particular

> importance. (the rest is the essential teaching and becomes obvious

> in time.)

>

> implication once again that maya-shakthi is inscrutable, indescribable

> (anirvachaniya), cyclically eternal and unknowable. yet within it

> there's a relative meaning--no less than isvara as anthropomorphic

> conception of the saguna brahman Itself. implications further there

> is purpose in world, regardless if one does or doesn't practically

> support. no fault whatsoever.

>

> i would require much more time and space to present what i'm leading

> up to here. literally and figuratively with a double entendre thrown

> in! :-)

>

> the message is perhaps cryptic or i just gave a good imitation of

> professor irwin cory theorizing nothing. (that's a quick way out! :-)

>

> really, just wanted to say hi and namaste to all! you're forever in

> my thoughts.

>

> frank

>

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

> Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

>

>

>

> Sponsor

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

--

> Links

>

>

> advaitin/

>

> b..

> advaitin

>

> c..

>

>

[Guest guest]

Harsha-ji!

 

welcome home! have not see you in a long time !

 

i am enjoying this interlude between Bhagwan and EvanS. Wentz. YES!

to a jnani even , Maya is Reality !1

 

and pl read what Bahwan says on Bhakti !!!!!!!!

 

"Bhakti is not different from mukti. Bhakti is as being Self

(svarupa). One is always That. He realises it by the means he adopts.

What is bhakti? To think of God. That means only one thought prevails

to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That is of God which is the

Self or it is the self-surrender unto God; When He has taken you up,

nothing will assail you. The absence of thoughts is bhakti. It is

also mukti."

 

"The Saguna merges in the Nirguna in the long run. The saguna

purifies the mind and takes one to the final goal. The afflicted one,

the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of gains are all dear to God."

 

"To know God is to love God. Therefore the path of bhakti and of

jnana are same. "

 

"The thought of God is divine favour, is by nature prasad or arul. It

is by God's grace that you think of God."

 

"Take the case of bhakti. I approach Isvara and pray to be absorbed

in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What

remains afterwards? In the place of the original 'I' perfect self-

surrender leaves a residium of God in which the 'I' is lost. This is

the highest form of parabhakti (supreme bhakti), prapti (surrender)

or the height of vairagya."

 

http://www.murugan.org/bhaktas/maharshi.htm - 3k - Cached

 

on a lighter note ...

 

to Frank!

 

Cryptic messages are generally one liners .... brief and

secretive ... Your message fails to meet these two criteria...

LOL!!!!! anyway...... !!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Adi Behnji, and other respected members, Namaste

 

Thank you.

 

I just wonder how your fingers go on playing on the keyboard – do they need no

rest. I can see the brain also behind the fingers, loaded with great learning.

 

 

 

Your quotation from Vivekananda’s writing is very well timed, particularly in

today’s world condition.

 

 

 

May I re-write what you said : “a parama bhakta is equal to a parama jnani” as

“parama gnani is equal to a parama bhakta”.

 

Somehow, pardon me, but I cannot understand the different grades in Bhakti, such

as lower grade, higher grade, etc.

 

I remember an anecdote:

 

One of our chaps (Indian) was touring Australia and he happened to be houseguest

of his friend, an Australian. In the morning when the milk vendor came, our

friend asked him “are you bringing pure milk?”

 

The vendor got confused and did not say anything, but he asked his boss, “what

is pure milk” as someone is asking for it. The boss replied “that fellow must be

from India!”

 

There is no pure milk. Milk is milk. Ghee is ghee and there is no pure ghee, as

they exhibit in the restaurants here “All prepared in pure Ghee only”.

 

So, Bhakti is Bhakti and there can not be any grades in Bhakti and Love. This is

only my view.

 

As for gnanis, true, habitual errors do take place. Even in the case of our most

revered Adi Shankaracharya, we know how he treated a Chandala in Varanasi. May

not be due to habitual error but for some other purpose, i.e. for us to have

“Maneesha Panchakam”.

 

Coming to Bhakti itself, I would like to narrate my personal experience, In the

context of what Sri Chittaranji kindly wrote:

 

<<<Yes, Maniji, in bhakti, the ego dissolves in the floodlight of the Infinite,

and its tears spring from the fount of ananda in the Self.>>>

 

I was just 30 years old, i.e. around the early 1970’s. I went to Gurugayoor, the

very popular temple for Lord Krishna, with my little daughter, aged six years

for Darshan of the Lord. It was my first visit. We reached the place late at

night. Early next morning, around 3.30 a.m. after our bath, we went straight to

the temple to join the crowd waiting for Vaka Charthu Darshan (early morning

Darshan of the Lord in full Alankara (decoration) of previous night, i.e.

Nirmalya Darshan, and after that the detailed bathing (abhishekam) of the lord’s

idol with special oil, medicinal powder etc., i.e. Vaka Charthu). Those days

crowd for such Darshan was not very large and numbered only around fifty or so.

 

Exactly at 4.00 a.m. the temple doors were opened, and the entire crowd ran

towards the sanctum, all vying each other to get a glimpse of the Lord. I looked

at the Lord only once, may be few seconds, and for no reason known to me tears

started flowing down my eyes and I literally wept through the entire ceremony,

looking at the face of a small boy of about three years, who was accompanying

his parents. This was an experience I can never forget in my life. I had no

prayers, nothing to ask for, no special thoughts, in my mind, and I could not

understand what exactly happened to me for about thirty minutes.

 

Again I experienced similar state, later on while I had my first Darshan of Lord

Murugan at Palani Temple, and after that at Sabarai Malai where I went for

Darshan of Lord Ayyappa.

 

Such experience could be viewed as hallucination by many, but even today when I

think of that, a sort of ecstasy passes through mind.

 

 

 

In the contest of the above experience, I have some questions on which I hope

our group members can let me know:

 

 

 

Why such experience takes place only when I visited the popular temples

mentioned above, and not other temples. In my village there is a temple, and

when I go for Darshan, and when I stand before the idol with my head down and

with folded palms, I do feel a little “overwhelmed” but not to the extent in the

popular (?) temples?

 

Is it not because we go with “Sradhana Antenna” loaded with sufficient extra

soft-ware to these temples? Such soft-ware is nothing but based on what we read,

what we hear, etc. about such temples? Let us be very honest on these matters,

as this is something very important for one who approaches Self Knowledge.

 

Why is it not possible to get the “Srandhana Antenna” tuned when we visit

Churches, Mosques, etc.

 

Preaching can lead to practices. Teaching is entirely different. Teaching,

particularly in the case of Self Knowledge, is not something to be followed by

“practice”. It, i.e. the Knowledge as wisdom, must reflect in one’s living

spontaneously, i.e. accommodating everything as space accommodates without any

agitation. Such accommodation comes from Happiness itself and not for any

happiness. Even if there is a little upsurge of emotion, the next moment the

Knowledge brings back him to Self Consciousness and not to self-conscious-state,

in which we, or at least I am, now. The Teaching, IMHO, definitely works maybe

it may take a little time, as there is immeasurable notions loaded in one’s

self-conscious-state over millions of birth.

 

I hope I am not offending anyone in any way.

 

I cannot help quoting, English translation of a Malayalam

 

song :

 

“Man created religions,

 

Religions created gods,

 

The three, divided the mind and the earth”

 

Warm regards to all

 

HARI OM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

adi_shakthi16 <adi_shakthi16 wrote:

Mani-ji!

 

Thank you so much for a heart-warming post.

 

Yes! you say

advaitin/

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Adiji.

 

The interpretation acceptable to me can be found here:

 

http://www.indianest.com/hinduism/025.htm

 

Verses 9,10, and 11 should be taken together for a better

understanding:

 

QUOTE

 

These verses describe empirical knowledge as 1) Vidya and 2) Avidya.

Here the word knowledge should be seen as worldly knowledge, for both

Vidya and Avidya blind and delude the person from true reality. Both

should be transcended to reach the highest state of Knowledge.

 

Theoretical grasp about Self without sincere and honest efforts to

realize the Self is called Vidya, while to take delusory experiences

perceived through the senses as true constitutes Avidya. Avidya

knowledge binds the people more and more to the illusory world.

Through Avidya a person never comes to realize that he/she has to go

further! Such people are termed as 'bound souls'. Their only chance

then remains to associate with holy company and serve the men of

realization whereby the darkness of ignorance can be removed at least

bit-by-bit. Most of us are thus ignorant about the truth of higher

knowledge. An illumined person tries to help us when out of love he

elaborates the concepts of Truth etc.

 

Vidya knowledge might lead a person towards realizing the goal, but

the people under the veil of Vidya Maya are difficult to convince

about the nature of their ignorance. For, just by reading, hearing,

or reasoning about the Truth they think and are convinced that they

have realized the Self! Under this false sense of achievement they go

on teaching and telling others, and also start behaving as if they

have realized the Truth. These people without applying themselves to

austerities, tapas, renunciation, and spiritual practices delude

themselves and harm others as well. Therefore, it is said that those

who pride themselves under the influence of Vidya knowledge actually

are pushed more and more into the darkness of ignorance.

 

Therefore, it is said, "He who knows these two - both Vidya and

Avidya together - attains immortality by transcending them… Verse 11.

 

UNQUOTE

 

Adiji, this cut-pasting is fast becoming contagious. Do we really

have to make this List sticky with such a lot of paste!? Now please

go ahead and remove the lid. But, make sure your fingers don't stick!

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

________________

 

advaitin, "adi_shakthi16" <adi_shakthi16>

wrote:

> Nair-ji, i have a question for you !

>

> HOW would you interpret this verse in isha upanishad ?

>

> "Into blinding darkness enter those who worship ignorance and into

> greater darkness those who worship knowledge alone. "

>

> i think the response to this question may help us remove the Lid!!!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Maniji.

 

As usual, you have raised questions and answered them too!

 

You are becoming co-extensive (as CN would put it) with the world and

that is no hallucination. You are on the right track. I notice that

you were not looking at the Lord when the Guruvayoor ecstasy

enveloped you. Your gaze was fixed on the face of a three-year old

boy and the Lord was very much him. You didn't then bother about the

caste and creed of the boy. Did you? Don't let the experience skip

you. Hold on to it and 'practice' it deliberately on all occasions

without letting it pass as an isolated incident - a freaky flash on

the pan. Then, you will soon see that you have it when the mike at

your neighbourhood mosque blares 'Allahu Akbar'!

 

Incidentally,if I am not making a very tall claim, I also have such

moments of ecstasy even when I see a dog or cat or when I look at a

distant star. I see my Mother in them and spontaneously

exclaim "Ammah!". It does happen with trees and plants - not to

speak of beautiful sunsets. Then again, the face of a starving child

of some distant land on a news mag moves me to tears. The last may

be wrongly called empathy. But, I don't agree because the tears

effect a catharsis that breaks the bounds of individuality granting

me a sense of universality. However, may I confess privately, this

doesn't happen when I am face to face with my wife. LOL! So, till

such day I begin to cry out spontaneously "Ammah!" at my wife and

mother-in-law, I need 'practice'. Practice what? Practice

universality, i.e. deliberately repeat to myself that I am the whole

universe - from ants to stars and the unknown. Only then will the

embryonic sheath of limiting singularity break open throwing up a

thousand suns of enlightenment.

 

Let us, therefore, 'practice' deliberately with the precious

knowledge of advaita we fortunately have to make our occasional

moments of ecstasy really eternal. It is very much within us to do

so. Please, therefore, don't say there is no room for 'practice' in

nourishing our knowledge of advaita! 'Practice' here is the very

living towards spontaneity. It is lack of spontaneity that makes

ecstasy occasional. We have to necessarily work for it as we know

for sure that it is there and our real nature.

 

Hope you won't take this as preaching.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

_________________

 

Maniji wrote:

> I was just 30 years old, i.e. around the early 1970's. I went to

Gurugayoor, the very popular temple for Lord Krishna, with my little

daughter, aged six years for Darshan of the Lord. ........

>

>..... I looked at the Lord only once, may be few seconds, and for no

reason known to me tears started flowing down my eyes and I literally

wept through the entire ceremony, looking at the face of a small boy

of about three years, who was accompanying his parents. This was an

experience I can never forget in my life. I had no prayers, nothing

to ask for, no special thoughts, in my mind, and I could not

understand what exactly happened to me for about thirty minutes.

>

> Again I experienced similar state, later on while I had my first

Darshan of Lord Murugan at Palani Temple, and after that at Sabarai

Malai where I went for Darshan of Lord Ayyappa.

>

> Such experience could be viewed as hallucination by many, but even

today when I think of that, a sort of ecstasy passes through mind.

>

> In the contest of the above experience, I have some questions on

which I hope our group members can let me know:

>

> Why such experience takes place only when I visited the popular

temples mentioned above, and not other temples. In my village there

is a temple, and when I go for Darshan, and when I stand before the

idol with my head down and with folded palms, I do feel a

little "overwhelmed" but not to the extent in the popular (?)

temples?

> Is it not because we go with "Sradhana Antenna" loaded with

sufficient extra soft-ware to these temples? Such soft-ware is

nothing but based on what we read, what we hear, etc. about such

temples? Let us be very honest on these matters, as this is something

very important for one who approaches Self Knowledge.

>

> Why is it not possible to get the "Srandhana Antenna" tuned when we

visit Churches, Mosques, etc.

>

> Preaching can lead to practices. Teaching is entirely different.

Teaching, particularly in the case of Self Knowledge, is not

something to be followed by "practice". It, i.e. the Knowledge as

wisdom, must reflect in one's living spontaneously, i.e.

accommodating everything as space accommodates without any agitation.

Such accommodation comes from Happiness itself and not for any

happiness. Even if there is a little upsurge of emotion, the next

moment the Knowledge brings back him to Self Consciousness and not to

self-conscious-state, in which we, or at least I am, now. The

Teaching, IMHO, definitely works maybe it may take a little time, as

there is immeasurable notions loaded in one's self-conscious-state

over millions of birth.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Mani-ji,

 

thank you much for this message from your deepest heart...

 

Bhakti is Bhakti....there is only one real Love existing...

 

....you have a question in your message...

i beleive that the real nature of us all Is this Love...

tears of this Love is the prove that we can appreciate this Love in

others too....

in temples....or other places where people feel "deep Happiness"

 

sometimes even in the cinema sitting with few hundreds of

people....there can be the "entrence" into meditation....because of

the "happy atmosphere"

 

places where many people felt deep happiness in the past....are maybe

places with better "energy"...?

 

Regards

 

peace and love

wish deep happiness

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Thank you Nair-ji!

 

Now, Nair-ji , olease contemplate why on earth i would quote that

verse from Isavashya upanishads in the context of the present

discussion?

 

This is a technique that is often employed by 'moderators' to

introduce another element to the discussion that is already in

progress!!! smiles!!

 

I thank you for posting that Link which btw is my favorite link as

well !! It has a whole section of sufi saint kabir's poetry!!!

 

If an interpretation is acceptable to Nair-ji, how can it not be

acceptable to the rest of us!!!!! smiles, again!!!

 

this is what i was leading up to ....

 

i am quoting from your post

 

( Vidya knowledge might lead a person towards realizing the goal, but

the people under the veil of Vidya Maya are difficult to convince

about the nature of their ignorance. For, just by reading, hearing,

or reasoning about the Truth they think and are convinced that they

have realized the Self! Under this false sense of achievement they

go on teaching and telling others, and also start behaving as if

they have realized the Truth. These people without applying

themselves to austerities, tapas, renunciation, and spiritual

practices delude themselves and harm others as well. Therefore, it

is said that those who pride themselves under the influence of Vidya

knowledge actually are pushed more and more into the darkness of

ignorance.)

 

don't you think this pretty much sums up the importance of Practice

in Advaita ?

 

and then you go on to comment

 

Adiji, this cut-pasting is fast becoming contagious. Do we really

have to make this List sticky with such a lot of paste!? Now please

go ahead and remove the lid. But, make sure your fingers don't

stick!

 

Oh GOD! I did not know i had such a great influence !!! Nair-ji, we

already have your 'Purna-Midam' bhasya and soon we will have your

Bhasya on Sadhna in ADVAITA and then guess what i will be cutting and

pasting your bhasyas also? is that ok? smiles, again!!! Just

joking!!! beleve me, most people do not mind cutting and pasting as

long as it is from their books and not from other sources!!! The

Great Ego!!!!

 

love and regards

[Guest guest]

Hello Raj-ji and Adidi,

 

I agree about the cutting and pasting. Why not just send the link and take it

from there? But even better, in this month's topic, I wish to hear what *you*

the discussants have to say on these issues. How about a balance of 25%

quotation and 75% of our own interpretation?

 

Pranaams,

 

--Greg

 

At 04:45 AM 9/22/2004 +0000, Madathil Rajendran Nair wrote:

>Namaste Adiji.

>

>The interpretation acceptable to me can be found here:

>

>http://www.indianest.com/hinduism/025.htm

>

>Verses 9,10, and 11 should be taken together for a better

>understanding:

>

>QUOTE

>

>These verses describe empirical knowledge as 1) Vidya and 2) Avidya.

>Here the word knowledge should be seen as worldly knowledge, for both

 

.....

[Guest guest]

Namaste Gregji.

 

My solid vote for the suggested proportion (25:75). In fact, I would

like to see 100% our own interpretations - a standard I have always

endeavoured to live except in exceptional circumstances. The links

can be named. Then, there is the apprehension that they may never be

clicked. Well, so be it! Even now, I suspect from the responses we

receive, most of the quoted material is almost never read!

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

___________________

 

advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> I agree about the cutting and pasting. Why not just send the link

and take it from there? But even better, in this month's topic, I

wish to hear what *you* the discussants have to say on these issues.

How about a balance of 25% quotation and 75% of our own

interpretation?

[Guest guest]

Hey mani-ji!

 

you flatter me too much!!!

 

It has been proved beyond a reasonable doubt that i have *no* brains

as all i do is cut and paste !!!! smiles!!!!!

 

Mani-ji,

 

YOU COMMENT

 

( Somehow, pardon me, but I cannot understand the different grades in

Bhakti, such as lower grade, higher grade, etc.)

 

Yes! Mani-ji!

 

There are several types of Bhakti.

 

Have you not heard of Sakamya and Nishkamya Bhakti ?

 

In Sakamya bhakti, the devotee always asks GOD/ESS to shower the

bhaktas with material gains - such as PUTRA-KAMESHTI ( DESIRE FOR

PROGENY) , AROGHYAM ( GOOD HEALTH), AISHWARYAM ( WEALTH) , VIVAHA

SAMPANNAM ( MARRIAGE), VIDYA SAMPANNAM ( GOOD EDUCATION) etc.... and

Some even pray for mukti or liberation , which is the loftiest of all

desires!

 

But in Nishkamya bhakti, the Bhakta never asks the God/ess for

anything - THIS IS A HIGHER FORM OF BHAKTI! love for love's sake!

 

Kunti devi , mother of the pandavas, is an example of Nishkamya

bhakti - She never asked lord Krishna for anything ...she always

prayed to Lord krishna thus " O lord !let me never forget to chant

your names. Give me so much sorrow that i will never forget you."

 

Now, tell me Maniji- ! will anyone in their right mind ever ask Lord

to give sorrows? The moral of the story is you must remember the Holy

name of the lord at all times, good or bad!

 

Then, we have another classification of Bhakti ...

 

1) apara and para bhakti

 

In apara bhakti(gauna) , the bhakta is busy worshipping the Image of

his ishta devata, dresses up the image of the god/ess, makes flower

garlands , performs aarti, offers naivedyam , wave deepam, performs

all the rituals, observes all the fasts , recites all the slokas

etc.... In this stage of bhakti, Form and Name is everything! SUCH IS

THE STATE OF THE Hare Krishnas ... they call other gods such as Lord

shiva as demi-gods , other modes of worship as not following

scriptural injunctions ...

 

 

 

but apara bhakti can blossom into Para bhakti( mukhya) if the

bhakta cultivates the Jnana that the whole universe is nothing but

the transcedental lord ( or ambaal, etc) and such was the state of

parama-bhaktas like SRI RAMAKRISHNA! he saw Mother Kali in every

CREATURE including a cat! in fact, to our beloved Thakore, every

woman was a manifestation of the Divine Mother ! so much so, when a

prostitute was sent to Sri Ramakrishna to lure him into samsarik

life, our beloved Thakore prostrated before her and touched her feet

and addressed her as " Maa" !

 

You comment .

 

So, Bhakti is Bhakti and there can not be any grades in Bhakti and

Love. This is only my view.

 

YES! dear-heart! THIS IS ONLY YOUR VIEW!!! rightly so!!

 

LET ME SHARE WITH YOU A STORY from sai baba's divine discourses !!

 

Once Lord Krishna pretended he had a terrible headache. He told Sage

Narada that his headache can be cured only by the application of the

dust from the feet of a true devotee to his head. Sage Narada sought

to collect the dust from Sathyabhama, Rukmini and others, whom he

regarded as great devotees of the Lord. But all of them declined to

give the dust to be placed on the Lord's head. They told Narada rishi

we cannot commit such 'apradha' !

 

Ultimately Narada went to the gopikas, who did not have the slightest

hesitation to offer the dust from their feet if only it would give

immediate relief to the Lord, regardless of the consequences to

themselves. They were only concerned with giving relief to their Lord

by any means. They declared, "Our entire life is dedicated to

Krishna. His joy is ours."

 

this is the highest form of Love ! LOVE FOR LOVE'S SAKE! mahabhava in

Madhurya Rasa!

 

AND MANI-JI YOU COMMENT

 

( As for gnanis, true, habitual errors do take place. Even in the

case of our most revered Adi Shankaracharya, we know how he treated a

Chandala in Varanasi. May not be due to habitual error but for some

other purpose, i.e. for us to have "Maneesha Panchakam".)

 

These types of error occurs in the case of bhaktas, too!

 

Once , a great devotee of Guruvayurappa was reciting the

Narayeeniyam and doing puja to Lord Guruvayurappa. There was a knock

on the door and as she opened the door, she saw a young child of six

years . The child outstretched his hand and said " Amma, please give

me some Prasadam-sweetmeats"! the lady said, " dear child, i have not

completed my puja as yet . I have to offer Neivediyam (food

offering) to MY guruvayurappan first before i can give it to you. The

child left, disappointed! The same night, Lord Gurvayurappan appeared

in the lady's dream and said " DEar devotee! i appeared as a child at

your doorstep and you shooed me away as you were so busy offering

puja to my stone image."

 

yes, dear all! NAMES AND FORMS ARE OK in the preliminary stages of

bhakti BUT IN THE STAGE OF pARA BHAKTI,M, NAMES AND FORMS DISAPPEAR!

you see the Lord everywhere! Nair-ji has described this beautifully!

he has sri Saraswati devi's Kataksham!

 

as far your last point, each place has its own sanctity! you will not

believe this! IN madras, where my grandmother lived , there used to

be a small pillayar kovil right at the end of the street! To this

day, whenever i visit that small temple , i am overcome

by 'paravasam' - my whole body trembles at the sight of that idol of

lord ganesha! so powerful and potent it is! so, it is not a matter of

size of the temple as much as the Bhava of the devotees who assemble

at that temple !!! Take BrihadeeshwarAR TEMPLE - SO HUGE , AN

ARCHTECTURAL MARVEL! A POETRY IN STONE !!! The Siva-lingha and the

Nandi there are so gigantic! But, guess what! i enjoyed my trip to

Sri Kamakshi amman temple in kanchi more!! you know why? i felt adi

shankara's divine presence there ! wheras in the brihadesshwera

temple, i only felt the Chola king's majesty and grandeur!!!

 

mani-ji, keep writing!!

 

love and regards

[Guest guest]

Nair-ji and Greg-ji!

 

You may not have to worry too much as i am leaving for Orlando,

FLORIDA , this Saturday to spenD time with my two precious

grandsons , the apple of my eyes!!! I WILL BE CONSPICUOUS BY MY

ABSENCE!! smiles!!

 

Yes, we can give all the links we want .... HOW MANY PEOPLE EVEN

ACCESS THESE LINKS?

 

 

in any case, there is a 'danger' in our own interpretations also!

some of us are so powerful in our presentation skills that we

may 'misrepresent' the BHASYAS TOO! scriptural injunctions!!! This

was obvious in prior month's discussions!!!

 

Greg-ji, my suggestion to you before i leave ... AS a discussant, you

must take a lead role ... other discussants had their chances!!! this

is only fair to you, don't you think? i know you appreciate in your

heart of hearts all the help you got from Nair-ji because he did keep

the discussion flowing but he had his 'chance' in the Purnamidam

debate, the floor is yours and we are all only participants!!

 

no offence meant!!

 

PLease take care all of you!! i am going to do my real life sadhana

as a loving mother, and an even more loving grand mother ! in any

case, Navarati is coming up and i will be observing total mauna!!!

 

thanx for all the patience and endurance!!!

 

love and regards

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste Gregji.

>

> My solid vote for the suggested proportion (25:75). In fact, I

would

> like to see 100% our own interpretations - a standard I have always

> endeavoured to live except in exceptional circumstances. The links

> can be named. Then, there is the apprehension that they may never

be

> clicked. Well, so be it! Even now, I suspect from the responses we

> receive, most of the quoted material is almost never read!

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

> ___________________

>

> advaitin, Gregory Goode <goode@D...> wrote:

> > I agree about the cutting and pasting. Why not just send the

link

> and take it from there? But even better, in this month's topic, I

> wish to hear what *you* the discussants have to say on these

issues.

> How about a balance of 25% quotation and 75% of our own

> interpretation?

[Guest guest]

Hello Adi-Shakthi,

 

OK, I'll try to take a more active role. Maybe not the "lead," but we'll see.

See my next message that might get it started.

 

--Greg

 

At 02:03 PM 9/22/2004 +0000, adi_shakthi16 wrote:

>Nair-ji and Greg-ji!

>

>You may not have to worry too much as i am leaving for Orlando,

>FLORIDA , this Saturday to spenD time with my two precious

>grandsons , the apple of my eyes!!! I WILL BE CONSPICUOUS BY MY

>ABSENCE!! smiles!!

 

....

 

>Greg-ji, my suggestion to you before i leave ... AS a discussant, you

>must take a lead role ... other discussants had their chances!!! this

>is only fair to you, don't you think? i know you appreciate in your

>heart of hearts all the help you got from Nair-ji because he did keep

>the discussion flowing but he had his 'chance' in the Purnamidam

>debate, the floor is yours and we are all only participants!!

 

....

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

paste little Bhakti here....cut little Bkakti there....

maybe all the sriptures have been cut endless times......

.....and have been paste somewhere....endless times

 

it's like bringing pots filled up with the water of the ocean...and

tell that this is part of the ocean....

 

it's a pitty that there is no pot ...big enough to fill it up with

whole of the ocean....

 

it's worth to visit ourself the ocean....nobody can do it for us

 

ok....i leave you for now again with an empty pot....lol

 

with love

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Does this mean that anyone who has an ishta devata or takes part in

standard temple worship is ignorant. And isn't accusing elders who do

particpate in such worship speaking "ill" of them?

 

I realize that many of our exterior acts of devotion are concessions to

our humanity, but aren't there many wise men and women who still value

the forms of worship?

 

Also, I didn't quote the part about mantras, etc. being useless, but

that also seems to me to be rather severe and/or baseless.

 

Bob Freedman

 

B VAIDYANATHAN wrote:

>

>

>

> The formless god is beyond the reach of

> the ignorant, those who have not progressed sufficiently in spiritual

> knowledge. It is to meet the needs of such people, that Hinduism has

> in its pantheon thirty-three crores of gods who are all with form.

> If, with implicit faith, such people worship ...

 

Do

> not speak ill of the elders.

>

>

>

>

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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