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October 19, 2004

-

"Tony OClery" <aoclery

Monday, October 18, 2004 3:58 PM

Advaita and Dvaita.

>

> Namaste All,

>

> Maharaj said this below and even Ramana has indicated the same

> result. My question is 'Why do so many Ramana sites go directly to

> the general Bhakti dualistic teaching instead of his higher

> teaching?' I know one could say because of Bhakti, but then why

> choose Ramana and worship him when there are plenty of dualistic

> figures around? Even believing that Ramana is somehow in the Astal

> helping them. I find this fascinating that so called non dualitst do

> this. Can anyone add to my comments.........ONS..Tony.

*******************************

Dearest Tony,

You are so funny! Have you not heard that Sri Ramana himself was a Bhakta.

Have you read hymns to Arunachala?

9. After abducting me, if now thou dost not embrace me, where is Thy

Chivalry, O' Arunachala? (from "A Marital Garland of Letters for Sri

Arunachala").

There is no difference between Pure Jnana and Pure Bhakti.

Jnanis enjoy bhakti and stories of bhaktas. Bhagavan would sometimes

actually start weeping when he read stories of bhaktas from the scriptures.

Love to all

Harsha

October 19, 2004

advaitin, "Harsha" wrote:

> -

> "Tony OClery" <aoclery>

> <advaitin>

> Monday, October 18, 2004 3:58 PM

> Advaita and Dvaita.

>

> >

> > Namaste All,

> >

> > Maharaj said this below and even Ramana has indicated the same

> > result. My question is 'Why do so many Ramana sites go directly

to

> > the general Bhakti dualistic teaching instead of his higher

> > teaching?' I know one could say because of Bhakti, but then why

> > choose Ramana and worship him when there are plenty of dualistic

> > figures around? Even believing that Ramana is somehow in the

Astal

> > helping them. I find this fascinating that so called non

dualitst do

> > this. Can anyone add to my comments.........ONS..Tony.

> *******************************

> Dearest Tony,

>

> You are so funny! Have you not heard that Sri Ramana himself was a

Bhakta.

>

> Have you read hymns to Arunachala?

>

> 9. After abducting me, if now thou dost not embrace me, where is

Thy

> Chivalry, O' Arunachala? (from "A Marital Garland of Letters for

Sri

> Arunachala").

>

> There is no difference between Pure Jnana and Pure Bhakti.

>

> Jnanis enjoy bhakti and stories of bhaktas. Bhagavan would

sometimes

> actually start weeping when he read stories of bhaktas from the

scriptures.

>

> Love to all

> Harsha

Namaste Harsha et al,

I understand that pure bhakti is merging with the Self or

surrendering the ego. Jnana does the same thing by enquiry and

discrimination---------I also understand that Ramana set examples

for all levels of understanding. I understand that the lower body or

monkey mind likes ritual and emotions etc etc and this can be

helpful as well as hindering.

It still doesn't really answer my question of why people ignore all

and then go ahead and worship a body that is long gone and the

personality doesn't exist and cannot help. Especially when Ramana's

teachings were so non dualistic and simple. I understand why some

Avatars are worshipped, for they tolerated that in order to teach,

at different levels. So it easy to see why people still worship them.

I am talking specifically of Ramana, but Maharaj could be easily

used but people don't worship him.

It amazes me why so called non dualists or advaitins would choose

Ramana specifically to worship as a God. My guess is that they are

neither non dualists or advaitins and just found some--'body' to

worship. Kind of like religion, somebody writes a book and sets out

rules and it grows from there. I understand Bhakti very well, my

musing is about Why Ramana it seems so incongruous.........ONS..Tony.

October 19, 2004

Dear Tonyji,

Namaste!

Pray, who is Maharaj?

Ravi

-

Tony OClery

Tuesday, October 19, 2004 4:28 AM

Advaita and Dvaita.

Namaste All,

Maharaj said this below and even Ramana has indicated the same

result. My question is 'Why do so many Ramana sites go directly to

the general Bhakti dualistic teaching instead of his higher

teaching?' I know one could say because of Bhakti, but then why

choose Ramana and worship him when there are plenty of dualistic

figures around? Even believing that Ramana is somehow in the Astal

helping them. I find this fascinating that so called non dualitst do

this. Can anyone add to my comments.........ONS..Tony.

"Once the body is gone, that knowledge which

experienced itself as Christ, Krishna, Buddha,

etc, has subsided, has become one with the

totality. If you abuse them by word, they do

not come and ask why you are abusing them,

because that knowledge which experienced

itself as one of these has subsided

into the totally.

Here, I do not repeat or imitate what other

sages do. I am not championing any

religion. I have no pose or stance for

anything, not even that I am a man or a

woman. The moment you accept any pose or

stance you have to take care of that by

following certain disciples related to that

pose. I abide in the Self only.".......

Maharaj

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

advaitin/

b..

c..

October 19, 2004

advaitin, Ravi Shivde <shivde@s...> wrote:

>

> Dear Tonyji,

> Namaste!

>

> Pray, who is Maharaj?

> Ravi

Namaste R,

Nisargadatta Maharaj--------------'I am

that'...............ONS..Tony.

October 19, 2004

Dear Tony,

I do not know about others, but I can tell you how I came to be a

devotee of Ramana Maharshi and maybe others even share my experience.

In believe it has to do with Arunachala. You do not consciously chose

Ramana Maharshi, who is Arunachala Shiva at the same time, there is a

force that draws the person to the mountain and to Maharshi. The boon

of Arunachala is that it grants freedom of desires. I believe that

Arunachala and Maharshi are a synthesis of Bhakti and Jnana Marga. I

came as a devotee of Lord Shiva and had been looking for a mountain all

my life and was initiated into Jnana Marga by Maharshi. But I am also a

Bhakta. As was Ramakrishna. First a Bhakta later initiated into Jnana

by Totapuri. Maybe it has to do with completion. And why do people

worship Maharshi even after he is dead ? When you read about him and

his absolutely amazing life, anyone with human emotions can't help but

love him. He is just such a loveable person. There is more to Maharshi

than pure advaita. And to love him doesn't mean that you cannot follow

his teaching and become a Jnani one day.

Have you been to Thiruvannamalai?

Om Namah Shivaya

Chris

On Oct 19, 2004, at 18:24, Tony OClery wrote:

October 19, 2004

Hello All,

I have for long been a passive spectator in this group...My 2 cents'

worth on this topic:

There is an adage in India : Maata, Pitaa, Guru, Deivam..you are to

revere (& worship?) your Mother, Father, Guru & God in that order.

Evolved souls like Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sankara have only shed their

mortal body...that doesn't mean that they have ceased to exist...Is

that not correct? Have they not realized that they are God or that

they are the "Self"? Which must mean that they are still "here" to

guide seekers...Does that not explain the dreams & visions that

several people have wherein they are being provided guidance by gurus

long gone from the material world?

Besides, do we not in our quest for attaining Godhood, worship God in

various forms?

Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after all it

is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great soul.

Regards

Amitha

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:44:11 +0200, christiane cameron

<christianecameron wrote:

>

> Dear Tony,

>

> I do not know about others, but I can tell you how I came to be a

> devotee of Ramana Maharshi and maybe others even share my experience.

> In believe it has to do with Arunachala. You do not consciously chose

> Ramana Maharshi, who is Arunachala Shiva at the same time, there is a

> force that draws the person to the mountain and to Maharshi. The boon

> of Arunachala is that it grants freedom of desires. I believe that

> Arunachala and Maharshi are a synthesis of Bhakti and Jnana Marga. I

> came as a devotee of Lord Shiva and had been looking for a mountain all

> my life and was initiated into Jnana Marga by Maharshi. But I am also a

> Bhakta. As was Ramakrishna. First a Bhakta later initiated into Jnana

> by Totapuri. Maybe it has to do with completion. And why do people

> worship Maharshi even after he is dead ? When you read about him and

> his absolutely amazing life, anyone with human emotions can't help but

> love him. He is just such a loveable person. There is more to Maharshi

> than pure advaita. And to love him doesn't mean that you cannot follow

> his teaching and become a Jnani one day.

>

> Have you been to Thiruvannamalai?

>

> Om Namah Shivaya

>

> Chris

>

> On Oct 19, 2004, at 18:24, Tony OClery wrote:

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Links

>

October 19, 2004

advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

wrote:

>

> Hello All,

> I have for long been a passive spectator in this group...My 2

cents'

> worth on this topic:

>

> There is an adage in India : Maata, Pitaa, Guru, Deivam..you are to

> revere (& worship?) your Mother, Father, Guru & God in that order.

>

> Evolved souls like Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sankara have only shed

their

> mortal body...that doesn't mean that they have ceased to exist...Is

> that not correct? Have they not realized that they are God or that

> they are the "Self"? Which must mean that they are still "here" to

> guide seekers...Does that not explain the dreams & visions that

> several people have wherein they are being provided guidance by

gurus

> long gone from the material world?

>

> Besides, do we not in our quest for attaining Godhood, worship God

in

> various forms?

> Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

all it

> is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

soul.

>

> Regards

Namaste,IMO,

This is interesting for nothing exists after the body mind construct

dies or disintegrates. Deams and visions, even miracles mostly come

from our own subconscious mind. There is nobody to worship but

ourselves for we are but the Self. The Buddhists call Ishtadevatas

the counterpart sign.

Try an experiment. Instead of mentally worshipping your

Ishtadevata/Guru, replace the image with an image of yourself. You

will find the same results, for you are imaging your own higher self

which has no image really.

If a great soul still exists in the astral or whatever then there

is a mind and they were not realised. At moksha there is no

individuality at all. It is all subsumed into Brahman, the veil is

lifted so to speak. Jesus, Buddha, Ramana no longer exist, only

Praneaswara exists and that is ultimately an illusion also-------

there is only Nirguna Brahman.

Dvaita or Religion is really about the astral and mental planes,

angels and devas--it is of essence dualistic.....In reality there is

only the Self..speaking as an aspiring advaitin....ONS....Tony

October 19, 2004

Hello Amitha,

you are right, of course. When Maharshi died, he said to the grieving

deotees: don't cry I am here, where could I go?

His presence is still there for all who care to feel it and his path is

open to all who care to walk it.

Chris

On Oct 19, 2004, at 22:52, Amitha Krishnamurthi wrote:

>

> Hello All,

October 19, 2004

Hi Tony,

yes Guru is self and Guru is me and you, but the subtle mind of

Maharshi still must have left some kind if energy imprint on the pure

mind level that people can tap into. Also I believe that the mind

gets softened and purified by bhakti, anyway Ramana was a Bhakti of

Arunachala Shiva. A mind purified and subtle by force of bhakti and

surrender will find it easier to acquire jnana. In Jnana there is the

pitfall that you can acquire a spiritual ego, which can be ever so

subtle and that will stop your development without you ever noticing.

Prema Christina

On Oct 20, 2004, at 00:43, Tony OClery wrote:

>

> advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hello All,

> > I have for long been a passive spectator in this group...My 2

> cents'

> > worth on this topic:

> >

> > There is an adage in India : Maata, Pitaa, Guru, Deivam..you are to

> > revere (& worship?) your Mother, Father, Guru & God in that order.

> >

> > Evolved souls like Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sankara have only shed

> their

> > mortal body...that doesn't mean that they have ceased to exist...Is

> > that not correct? Have they not realized that they are God or that

> > they are the "Self"? Which must mean that they are still "here" to

> > guide seekers...Does that not explain the dreams & visions that

> > several people have wherein they are being provided guidance by

> gurus

> > long gone from the material world?

> >

> > Besides, do we not in our quest for attaining Godhood, worship God

> in

> > various forms?

> > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> all it

> > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> soul.

> >

> > Regards

>

> Namaste,IMO,

>

> This is interesting for nothing exists after the body mind construct

> dies or disintegrates. Deams and visions, even miracles mostly come

> from our own subconscious mind. There is nobody to worship but

> ourselves for we are but the Self. The Buddhists call Ishtadevatas

> the counterpart sign.

>

> Try an experiment. Instead of mentally worshipping your

> Ishtadevata/Guru, replace the image with an image of yourself. You

> will find the same results, for you are imaging your own higher self

> which has no image really.

>

> If a great soul still exists in the astral or whatever then there

> is a mind and they were not realised. At moksha there is no

> individuality at all. It is all subsumed into Brahman, the veil is

> lifted so to speak. Jesus, Buddha, Ramana no longer exist, only

> Praneaswara exists and that is ultimately an illusion also-------

> there is only Nirguna Brahman.

>

> Dvaita or Religion is really about the astral and mental planes,

> angels and devas--it is of essence dualistic.....In reality there is

> only the Self..speaking as an aspiring advaitin....ONS....>

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Sponsor

>

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>

> Links

>

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> advaitin/

>

> •

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>

> • Terms of

> Service.

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

October 20, 2004

Namaste.

Looks like I have infected my otherwise mundane better half. She has

taken to reading advaita material and there is this biography of

BhagawAn Ramana Maharshi nowadays always on the bed with the sage

looking directly into our hearts from the glistening cover page.

Every time I pass by the book, I am impelled to lift and raise it to

my chest and forehead as I always do with the pictures of Mother, my

prayer book with Meenakshi on the cover page, SrImad Bhagwad Geetha

etc. Tell me, Tonyji, why am I doing this? If you have an answer,

then you have answered your question too.

PraNAms.

Madathil Nair

October 20, 2004

Thank you Amita-ji! Your 2 cents are worth a 2 million dollars !

You state

( Evolved souls like Ramana Maharishi, Sri Sankara have only shed

their mortal body...that doesn't mean that they have ceased to

exist...)

this reminds me of the following verse from srimad BG

Yat yat acharati shreshthah tat tat eva itrah janah,

sah yat pranamam kurute lokah tat anuvartate.( bg- 3:21)

What a great man does, others follow; people go by the example he

sets; Gita 3:21

another translation

Wwatever a great man does, that other men also do (imitate) ;

whatever he sets up as the standard, that the world (people) follows.

Amita-ji, you state

(Have they not realized that they are God or that

they are the "Self"? Which must mean that they are still "here" to

guide seekers...Does that not explain the dreams & visions that

several people have wherein they are being provided guidance by gurus

long gone from the material world?)

yes! Indeed!

when Shri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa attained Samadhi, sree Sarada Devi

saw a divine light entering from the body of Sri Ramakrishna into

young Naren's body ( who became swami vivekananda later on) - the

Guru never dies - HE is immortal and eternal and lives in the

teachings he has left behind - his sisyas continue his work!

Sree Sarada devi herself commented at the time of her Husband's

death - " Thakore has not left us . He has gone from one room to

another ." meaning that He is there in the puja room to guide and

lead his devotees. ( sunder-ji, please help me out here! i cannot

recall the exact words)

Saadar Pranaams to all!!!

October 20, 2004

Dear amitha,

what i mean guru is with in ourself

The knowledge is guru which can be attained with out anybody's help.

iam namasivayam/. spiritualist / librarian by profession

doing meditation for the past 6 years

having spiritual quest i am looking for other spiritualists

to share my experiences

my url

spiritualneed/

and

namasivayam

-

Amitha Krishnamurthi

Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:22 AM

Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

Hello All,

I have for long been a passive spectator in this group...My 2 cents'

worth on this topic:

October 20, 2004

Do You think Arunachala is in Thiruvannamalai?

Thiruvannamalai is With You.

namasivayam

-

"christiane cameron" <christianecameron

Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:11 AM

Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

> advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> wrote:

> >

> > Hello All,

> > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> all it

> > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> soul.

> >

> > Regards

October 20, 2004

advaitin, christiane cameron

<christianecameron@m...> wrote:

>

> Hi Tony,

>

> yes Guru is self and Guru is me and you, but the subtle mind of

> Maharshi still must have left some kind if energy imprint on the

pure

> mind level that people can tap into. Also I believe that the

mind

> gets softened and purified by bhakti, anyway Ramana was a Bhakti

of

> Arunachala Shiva. A mind purified and subtle by force of bhakti

and

Namaste Christiane et al,IMHO,

I don't want to shake anyone's faith but this is an advaita site, so

I can talk in the advaita fashion. Only the Ego is holding the body

and mind constructs together. Once the Ego is gone and the body

drops with the exhaustion of prarabda karma--------there is no

common thread. No imprint not anything just the Self. What you can

tap into is your own inner Self the only Self, whatever name or

attribute you give it.

It is possible that Ramana's Bhakti may have been an example, on the

other hand it may have been the prarabda or his body and body-mind.

Getting softened by Bhakti means one is identifying with the energy,

but this is to drop the ego and become the energy. All paths lead to

the same place eventually.

The Truth is so simple IMO.

1. There is Nirguna Brahman all else is illusion and delusion.

2, There is the illusion of Saguna Brahman/Self and creation.

3. There is a necessary energy of 'attraction' in creation, we

call 'Love'. Nirguna is beyond 'Love', though Saguna may be 'Love'.

Emotionalism isn't necessarily pure Love, Love can also seem hard.

We have to realise that we are Praneaswara or the Sakti, and at that

point we realise Nirguna/Moksha. As Jesus said,'The way to the

Father/Nirguna is through me/Saguna-Sakti- the Son. Sat Tat Om.

Bhakti or devotion is merging with the energy of sakti, losing one's

individuality in the process.

Picking up a picture of Ramana off a book and blessing oneself with

it does no harm, but it is externalising the Self yet again. We

should have no fear or dependence. There is no Ramana or Jesus to

help us, they were bodies and have gone completely. There is only

the Self. The various Yogas in the Gita are methods suitable to all

stages of development. They are sciences to help one realise the one

very simple truth. We are the Self, we are Saguna, we are Nirguna.

All else is illusion and even in some cases dependency and

superstition.........ONS.........Tony.

October 20, 2004

Dear Tony,

we know all that, there is nothing but the self, yes

but you can experience the self in two ways I believe, either as the

absence and intrinsic irreality of all phanomena, the great void, or as

fullness, the abundance of life. I prefer to live in the abundance that

is why I can love and talk to my Bhagawan and know at the same time

that he is not different from me.

Can it be that because of your past you are weary of Guruprema?

there really is no contradition

chris

On Oct 20, 2004, at 19:17, Tony OClery wrote:

>

> advaitin, christiane cameron

> <christianecameron@m...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi Tony,

> >

> > yes Guru is self and Guru is me and you, but the subtle mind of

> > Maharshi still must have left some kind if energy imprint on the

> pure

> > mind level that people can tap into. Also I believe that the

> mind

> > gets softened and purified by bhakti, anyway Ramana was a Bhakti

> of

> > Arunachala Shiva. A mind purified and subtle by force of bhakti

> and

>

> Namaste Christiane et al,IMHO,

>

> I don't want to shake anyone's faith but this is an advaita site, so

> I can talk in the advaita fashion. Only the Ego is holding the body

> and mind constructs together. Once the Ego is gone and the body

> drops with the exhaustion of prarabda karma--------there is no

> common thread. No imprint not anything just the Self. What you can

> tap into is your own inner Self the only Self, whatever name or

> attribute you give it.

>

> It is possible that Ramana's Bhakti may have been an example, on the

> other hand it may have been the prarabda or his body and body-mind.

> Getting softened by Bhakti means one is identifying with the energy,

> but this is to drop the ego and become the energy. All paths lead to

> the same place eventually.

>

> The Truth is so simple IMO.

> 1. There is Nirguna Brahman all else is illusion and delusion.

> 2, There is the illusion of Saguna Brahman/Self and creation.

> 3. There is a necessary energy of 'attraction' in creation, we

> call 'Love'. Nirguna is beyond 'Love', though Saguna may be 'Love'.

> Emotionalism isn't necessarily pure Love, Love can also seem hard.

>

> We have to realise that we are Praneaswara or the Sakti, and at that

> point we realise Nirguna/Moksha. As Jesus said,'The way to the

> Father/Nirguna is through me/Saguna-Sakti- the Son. Sat Tat Om.

> Bhakti or devotion is merging with the energy of sakti, losing one's

> individuality in the process.

>

> Picking up a picture of Ramana off a book and blessing oneself with

> it does no harm, but it is externalising the Self yet again. We

> should have no fear or dependence. There is no Ramana or Jesus to

> help us, they were bodies and have gone completely. There is only

> the Self. The various Yogas in the Gita are methods suitable to all

> stages of development. They are sciences to help one realise the one

> very simple truth. We are the Self, we are Saguna, we are Nirguna.

> All else is illusion and even in some cases dependency and

> superstition.........ONS.........Tony.

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Sponsor

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>

> Links

>

> •

> advaitin/

>

> •

>

> • Terms of

> Service.

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

October 20, 2004

indeed

On Oct 20, 2004, at 15:51, namasivayam wrote:

>

> Do You think Arunachala is in Thiruvannamalai?

> Thiruvannamalai is With You.

> namasivayam

>

> -

> "christiane cameron" <christianecameron

> <advaitin>

> Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:11 AM

> Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

>

> > advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello All,

>

> > > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> > all it

> > > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> > soul.

> > >

> > > Regards

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Sponsor

>

> <f2_free2_300x250_def_0904.gif>

> <l.gif>

>

> Links

>

> •

> advaitin/

>

> •

>

> • Terms of

> Service.

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

October 20, 2004

I had to learn that the hard way.

I was forced by circumstance to return from India to Germany. Not being

able to see Arunachala, was the worst for me. I used to cry with

longing. Than one morning as I was walking to the underground, I saw

Arunachala rising at the end of the street. Then I understood something

about Arunachala.

Christina

On Oct 20, 2004, at 15:51, namasivayam wrote:

>

> Do You think Arunachala is in Thiruvannamalai?

> Thiruvannamalai is With You.

> namasivayam

>

> -

> "christiane cameron" <christianecameron

> <advaitin>

> Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:11 AM

> Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

>

> > advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello All,

>

> > > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> > all it

> > > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> > soul.

> > >

> > > Regards

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

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> Links

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>

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> Service.

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

October 21, 2004

In response...

"Instead of mentally worshipping your

Ishtadevata/Guru, replace the image with an image of yourself. You

will find the same results, for you are imaging your own higher self

which has no image really."

and subsequently

"Only the Ego is holding the body

and mind constructs together. Once the Ego is gone and the body

drops with the exhaustion of prarabda karma--------there is no

common thread. No imprint not anything just the Self."

Since the whole idea of spiritual evolution becomes ridding the Self

of Ego....how is it going to help me if I meditate upon myself

mentally??? I for one, find the thought unpalatable...& definitely

feel that it feeds the Ego rather than trying to get rid of it...

"If a great soul still exists in the astral or whatever then there

is a mind and they were not realised. At moksha there is no

individuality at all. It is all subsumed into Brahman, the veil is

lifted so to speak. Jesus, Buddha, Ramana no longer exist, only

Praneaswara exists and that is ultimately an illusion also-------

there is only Nirguna Brahman."

It is obviously difficult to meditate on a Nirguna Brahman..which is

where forms come into play...they help in our quest for spiritual

evolution..Picking up a form does not indicate fear...it indicates

your readiness to move upwards in the process of "realization".

What I was trying to say in my earlier mail is that the Nirguna

Brahman acts through the form that appeals to the Individual...the

form might be that of a Guru, a God, an Avatar...even a pious ancestor

in your family.. If Maharishi realized that he was/is the SELF...he

still exists..since the SELF doesn't perish..he can still manifest

himself in any "Form" he chooses to...to his Bhaktas he will appear as

he was...that does not mean he exists in the astral level...nor does

that mean he didn't realize Godhood.

"We have to realise that we are Praneaswara or the Sakti, and at that

point we realise Nirguna/Moksha"

Evidently we are as yet "unrealised" souls..seeking

"realization"...which means the whole process is something to be

"realized" and "experienced".......which is what the Maharishi

espoused ...& something I remember that Sri Sadananda has said time &

again

The texts can help us only to a certain point...after which the

experience is what will lead us....the texts tell us that we are the

Self...but IMHO, any amount of outward analysis is not going to help

much in crossing that bridge between knowlede from the texts..and

realization for oneself...introspection is the need of the hour.

In this context..it does become true that without Bhakti..the whole

thing is an exercise akin to mental gymnastics.

Regards

Amitha

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 01:16:42 +0200, christiane cameron

<christianecameron wrote:

>

> indeed

>

> On Oct 20, 2004, at 15:51, namasivayam wrote:

>

> >

> > Do You think Arunachala is in Thiruvannamalai?

> > Thiruvannamalai is With You.

> > namasivayam

> >

> > -

> > "christiane cameron" <christianecameron

> > <advaitin>

> > Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:11 AM

> > Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

> >

> > > advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello All,

> >

> > > > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> > > all it

> > > > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> > > soul.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> >

> > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> > of Atman and Brahman.

> > Advaitin List Archives available at:

> > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

> > <f2_free2_300x250_def_0904.gif>

> > <l.gif>

> >

> > Links

> >

> > â€¢

> > advaitin/

> >

> > â€¢

> > advaitin

> >

> > â€¢ Terms of

> > Service.

> >

> Monsoonhouse Int.

> Kovalam/Kerala

> contact: christianecameron

>

> Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

>

> Links

>

October 21, 2004

Thank you very much

i never believe in GIRIVALAM

Giri Should valam myself whenever i wish

namasivayam

-

"christiane cameron" <christianecameron

Thursday, October 21, 2004 4:46 AM

Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

indeed

On Oct 20, 2004, at 15:51, namasivayam wrote:

>

> Do You think Arunachala is in Thiruvannamalai?

> Thiruvannamalai is With You.

> namasivayam

>

> -

> "christiane cameron" <christianecameron

> <advaitin>

> Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:11 AM

> Re: Re: Advaita and Dvaita.

>

> > advaitin, Amitha Krishnamurthi <amitha@g...>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello All,

>

> > > Then perhaps, worshipping your Guru as God will help too..after

> > all it

> > > is but another form that was once adopted as a "body" by a great

> > soul.

> > >

> > > Regards

>

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity

> of Atman and Brahman.

> Advaitin List Archives available at:

> To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

> Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Sponsor

>

> <f2_free2_300x250_def_0904.gif>

> <l.gif>

>

> Links

>

> .

> advaitin/

>

> .

http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/

>

> . Terms of

> Service.

>

Monsoonhouse Int.

Kovalam/Kerala

contact: christianecameron

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

Advaitin List Archives available at:

To Post a message send an email to : advaitin

Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages

Links

October 21, 2004

Namaste Tony and all members,

thank you Tony for the interesting message...

yes, it's an advaita site...i agree with you.

i beleive that the whole world is reflecting ourself...and ourself is

what is this whole world....Oneness

meditation is to loose the ego mind....to perceive the Self....and to

perceive that we are Not this world....Not body mind

intellect.....but at all the time detached from all changes....

fear is the prove of an ego mind which is too much attached to the

appearence of the world

the words written in this Group have in fact...absolutly no

meaning.....except the sharing of some spiritual path....with some

other people....who are for the duration of some time....."One" with

our world perception....

we have the choice to walk alone....or in company....

i'm glad to share the good company in this group....

by this company...other people appear sometimes....people who lived

in the past...Gurus....who maybe had gone exact the same path....long

time ago....

we can feel their presence....here and now....

wish you a good day...

in good company...

with love

Marc

October 21, 2004

Amita-ji writes...

( It is obviously difficult to meditate on a Nirguna Brahman..which is

where forms come into play...they help in our quest for spiritual

evolution..Picking up a form does not indicate fear...it indicates

your readiness to move upwards in the process of "realization".

please read what shri Ramana maharishi himself says on this

subject...

" The Saguna merges in the Nirguna in the long run. The saguna

purifies the mind and takes one to the final goal. The afflicted one,

the seeker of knowledge and the seeker of gains are all dear to God."

"The thought of God is divine favour, is by nature prasad or arul. It

is by God's grace that you think of God."

"Take the case of bhakti. I approach Isvara and pray to be absorbed

in Him. I then surrender myself in faith and by concentration. What

remains afterwards? In the place of the original 'I' perfect self-

surrender leaves a residium of God in which the 'I' is lost. This is

the highest form of parabhakti (supreme bhakti), prapti (surrender)

or the height of vairagya."

Om Tat Sat!

October 21, 2004

namasivayam writes...

(i never believe in GIRIVALAM Giri Should valam myself whenever i

wish)

This reminds me of that famous statement by Shri Thrumular, author of

Thirumantiram...

"engum chidambaram"

What does this mean?

This whole universe represents Lord Siva's ABODE -

whereever you are , you can witness Siva's dance !

You need not actually go to CHidambaram ( a beautiful temple in South

india) to witness Siva's cosmic dance.

There is beauty and divinity in 'inner pilgrimage'

The human body is the sacred temple of God/ess !!

in the human body are the sacred rivers and the mountains and the

Tirthastalas!

Witness the 'cosmic-dance' of siva-sakti in the thousand petalled

lotus and enjoy the bliss !

love and regards

October 21, 2004

sanjitha karma/ praratha karma/ aahamiya karma

these are basic education to visualise moksha

for the basic level.

Ego is inseparable with body having life.

What is mind ?

The entire universe is mind.

We are accustomed the mind rest in our body,

Some times it transfer the place fromheart to brain

In future it may go somewhere else,

Conciousness are divided into Five Broad category

1. Physical conciousness

2.Pranic conciousness

3. Mind conciousness

4.wisdom conciousness

5.spiritual conciousness

namasivayam

-

Amitha Krishnamurthi