Avidya, moksha etc

[Guest guest]

Hi Frank,

 

I haven't been following this thread, since

lately I've been wallowing in deep, evil

political samsara on the Indian Civilization

list, agreeing with them what a threat

militant Muslims and deceptive Missionaries

are to Hinduism and thus Wisdom itself!

 

However, if I understood you here, I agree

with your subtle points and would like to

restate them in my own words:

 

(i) Even the illusion is Brahman or Consciousness,

only it is misunderstood. And the misunderstanding

is also Consciousness! Hence, rather than fighting it

or considering it 'bad', we should just be at peace

with it, and it will settle down like the surface

of a pond that has been ruffled by the wind.

Once the last ripples have dissipated, the pool

will be crystal-clear, and at all times it was

only the water of consciousness, even when ruffled.

 

(ii) The various views and philosophies are

likewise only transitory flashes on the screen of

consciousness and should be considered no

more than harmless and empty images. The

problem arises when we try to cling to them

and give them more reality than they contain.

So we are not trying to find the 'right view' but

rather are trying to liberate the mind from the

psychological consequences of having ANY

view, which always leads to a constriction of

consciousness.

 

So I like your emphasis on mystery, since it

connotes both the absence of views and

the infinity that opens up when the constricting

views are eliminated. A nice echo of Taoism...

 

And the Mahayana Buddhists say the same thing,

as far as letting go of views is concerend, but I

won't dwell on that since it might annoy

those here who cling to their views! :-)

 

I hope I don't get stuck here again. It's a

full-time job bashing jihadis and missionaries

on the head for THEIR views...

 

Benjamin

 

 

advaitin, "frank maiello" <egodust> wrote:

>

> hariH OM! nair-ji,

>

> i concur *verbatim*! you said it definitively. this is what

> advaita is all about. even if one so much as *alludes* to

> illusion, as sri lordofthemystic did in his response to my

> post above, it is [by virtue of the allusion *itself*] yet another

> reality within the all pervasive parabrahmam. advaitins should

> always keep in mind the mahavakya, "all this, verily, is brahman."

>

> i also think sridhar-ji's idea that all we're really doing is

> speculating, should also be incorporated into one's overall

> view, since it allows for fluidity and prevents one from being

> entrapped by settling on any specific/narrow conceptualization.

>

> this is why i like to say that we're immersed in pure Mytery.

> it frees the mind from being pigeonholed and captured/obsessed.

> i also believe it's as close as we can get to embracing the

> "ultimate relative truth." :-))

>

> this is why sri ramana favored mouna diksha (teaching through

> silence) as the most effective way of transmitting the essence of

> atmanishta.

>

> namaste,

> frank

[Guest guest]

praNAm Sri Kuntimaddi Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Happy to see you back on the list after a long time.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

Cause-effect relations are valid and explainable within the creation.

So-called avidya is avidya of the absolute.

 

bhaskar :

 

After bickering so much about kArya (effect) & kAraNa (cause) of brahman,

I've following doubts prabhuji.

 

(a) Is there anyway we can realise kAraNa without the aid of kArya?? After

all we know that kAraNa is the ONLY satya (mruttikEmEva satyaM) & kAraNa as

such is only for the name sake (vAchAraMbhaNam vikAro nAmadhEyaM) & device

for teaching the brahman. As we've seen in the recent discussion, most of

the members think both kArya & kAraNa closely knitted without any change

whatsoever, I dont think any possibility of realising ONLY kAraNa without

perceiving kArya..It seems to me there is no possibility of existence of

kAraNa *as such* without kArya as we've to realise this kAraNa THROUGH

KARYA ONLY..

 

(b) Is this kArya is eternal in its avyakta rUpa (in seed form) in kAraNa??

or in other words is this jagat (kArya) has eternal existence in brahman

(kAraNa)??

 

© Is the objectified kArya is the ONLY means to realise kAraNa

prabhuji??

 

(d) Can this concept of kArya-kAraNa explainable & holds water even after

holding non-creation prabhuji?? I've seen some of the prabhuji-s holding

non-creation but still talking a lot about kArya & kAraNa prakriya.

 

If time permits, kindly clarify my doubts prabhuji.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

 

> bhaskar :

> (a) Is there anyway we can realise kAraNa without the aid of kArya??

 

Bhaskar - here is my understanding:

 

The concept of kAraNa, the cause, arises only in the enquiry of or with

reference to kArya, the effect. Otherwise the kArya-KaaraNa merge into

one. Effect is a manifestation and cause is unmanifest. I can only

enquire about the cause examining the effects. Using the pole I go

beyond the pole!

 

> After

> all we know that kAraNa is the ONLY satya (mruttikEmEva satyaM) &

> kAraNa as

> such is only for the name sake (vAchAraMbhaNam vikAro nAmadhEyaM) &

> device

> for teaching the brahman.

 

KAraNa and KArya both are concepts only - that there is a vikaara is

only a notion as one sees the effects. The enquiry of kaarya-kaaraNa

sambhandha should transcend both concepts - leaving only the enquirer.

 

 

As we've seen in the recent discussion, most

> of

> the members think both kArya & kAraNa closely knitted without any

> change

> whatsoever, I don’t think any possibility of realizing ONLY kAraNa

> without

> perceiving kArya..It seems to me there is no possibility of existence

> of

> kAraNa *as such* without kArya as we've to realise this kAraNa THROUGH

> KARYA ONLY..

 

You are right - The very concept that 'I have to realize some thing' is

itself is notional - and that arises seeing the kArya or effect and

taking that the effects are real.

I will put it this way - the effects are seen and what is seen are taken

as 'real' and therefore inquire into the nature of Brahman, the cause.

In that very inquiry the 'notions' of kAraNa-kArya and their sambandha

or relationship- dissolves into one homogeneous mass of Brahman. That

is the end of enquiry. In that realization - one 'recognizes' that kArya

and KAraNa and their sambandha are only 'apparent' and not real.

 

> (b) Is this kArya is eternal in its avyakta rUpa (in seed form) in

> kAraNa??

> or in other words is this jagat (kArya) has eternal existence in

> brahman

> (kAraNa)??

 

In its potential form - yes. Does pot have eternal existence in clay

-In its potential form yes.

See Sankaras 2nd sloka from Dakshana Murthy -

 

'beejasyantarivaankuro jagadidam praak nirvikalpam punaH ..."

 

>

> © Is the objectified kArya is the ONLY means to realise kAraNa

> prabhuji??

 

The question of kAraNa comes into question only when one perceives the

effect. In a deep sleep - there is no enquiry of kArya-kaaraNa

sambandha.

 

The question of realization comes into picture with the notion that I am

bound and I have to realize. It is already inherent in the need for

realization - is it not?

 

>

> (d) Can this concept of kArya-kAraNa explainable & holds water even

> after

> holding non-creation prabhuji??

 

'CONCEPTS' of creation or non-creation come into inquiry only when one

perceives something other than oneself and attributes a reality to that

what is perceived. Otherwise what is there to be 'explained'?

 

 

I've seen some of the prabhuji-s

> holding

> non-creation but still talking a lot about kArya & kAraNa prakriya.

>From the point of paaramaarthika the 'concept' of creation has no

meaning -since any division in the indivisible is only notional and not

real.

>From the point of vyaavahaarika - all divisions have transactional

reality but due 'ignorance' of paarmaarthika satyam, vyaavahaarika

satyam is taken as absolute.

 

I hope I am clear.

 

I am in the process of 'retiring' at the end of this year and returning

by Jan-Feb time to India. Hope we will have a chance to meet in

Bangalore some time during my stay in India.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

>

> If time permits, kindly clarify my doubts prabhuji.

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

>

>

> "

 

=====

What you have is destiny and what you do with what you have is self-effort.

Future destiny is post destiny modified by your present action. You are not only

the prisoner of your past but master of your future. - Swami Chinmayananda

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sadanandaji, I did not make these impressions from your email but from

lack of a satisfactory answer. I thought either my questions are very

rudimentary or I just need to go study more about Advaita. If you get a chance,

please read message # 25393 .

 

thanks,

Shailendra

 

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:

Shailendra - I hope my mail did not give these impressions. I am sorry I

did study all the mails in the chain.

 

 

--- Shailendra Bhatnagar <bhatnagar_shailendra wrote:

> Respected Sadanandaji, Namaskar ! So here is what I conclude from this

> email thread. There is no satisfactory answer because the question

> comes from Avidya.

 

I would put it this way. There are satisfactory questions and answers

with in the realm of vyavahaara. Scriptures are not illogical. The

truth lies beyond the logic. Cause-effect relations are valid and

explainable within the creation. So-called avidya is avidya of the

absolute. In the relative plane everything is valid. The problem comes

when one keeps one leg in vyavahaara and tries to put one leg in

paaramaarthika. There is confusion of mix of reference states.

 

 

 

As children of Avidya, as beings in a plural world,

> we should read the scriptures, follow the scriptures and do our duty

> sincerely and without any attachment to actions or results.

 

Yes this saadhana will help in the purification of the mind. Blessed are

those whose minds are pure - for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

>Nobody

> knows what is Moksha because Moksha is just another name.

 

That is not true. Scripture is the pramaaNa for this -Scripture is

within the realm of vyavahaara. Moksha is freedom from limitations and

that is Brahman, which is infiniteness. One cannot become infinite. one

has to recognize that one is already infinite. That is Moksha. Moksha

is freedom from avidya.

 

There is no

> seeker, no finder, no attainer, no knowledge, no teacher, no pupil, no

> avidya.

 

I will be very careful in these statements. The above statements are

valid from paaramaarthika and not from vyaavahaarika. In vyaavahaarika,

father is different, mother is different, daughter is different, and

your check is different from mine. There is no confusion here. I respect

my parents and I respect my teacher.

 

Understanding is the teacher, mother, me as a son of my parents are all

in the realm of vyaavahaarika - one can play the game of life with the

correct understanding. Garbage is garbage and food is food - no

confusion, knowing very well they are all nothing but electrons, protons

and neutrons. Will there be any confusion from understanding vs. from

transactions? It is the same way.

 

Focus on the one infinite Brahman and you will experience

> sachidananda in proportion to your understanding because in this

> Nashvar sansaar, only Brahman is Sanatan and True. Do you concur ?

 

Focus on Brahman is not focus on something remote - it is understanding

that everything is Brahman and I am that.

 

If my finger goes into my eyes, do I persecute the figure since I

pervade this figure and the eye. The same fingers sooth the eye. When I

have realization everything is Braham and I am that - There is only

outpouring of love divine. That is the true experience of 'aham

brahmaasmi'.

 

I hope I am clear.

 

>

> thanks,

> Shailendra

>

 

 

 

 

Send a seasonal email greeting and help others. Do good.

 

 

[Guest guest]

praNAm Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Kindly pardon me for the delay in reply...after nearly 8 days I am looking

at the mails.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

I will put it this way - the effects are seen and what is seen are taken

as 'real' and therefore inquire into the nature of Brahman, the cause.

In that very inquiry the 'notions' of kAraNa-kArya and their sambandha

or relationship- dissolves into one homogeneous mass of Brahman. That

is the end of enquiry. In that realization - one 'recognizes' that kArya

and KAraNa and their sambandha are only 'apparent' and not real.

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks a lot prabhuji for your kind clarification...this is what exactly I

wanted to know, this cause & effect & their relation has only apparent

transactional reality & not really real when it is seen from the

transcedental view point.

 

KS prabhuji:

> (b) Is this kArya is eternal in its avyakta rUpa (in seed form) in

> kAraNa??

> or in other words is this jagat (kArya) has eternal existence in

> brahman

> (kAraNa)??

 

In its potential form - yes. Does pot have eternal existence in clay

-In its potential form yes.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, kindly elaborate what is this potential form?? is it positive

existence of avykta shakti in nirvishEsha brahman?? If the potential form

is ever existent in brahman, then it leads us to material cause for avidyA

i.e.bhAva rUpa avidyA is it not?? shankara says sa yEsha bijAnkuravat

avidyAkrutaH saMsAraH...that both avyakta or avyAkruta or bIja rUpa of

saMsAra (jagat) & its vyAkruta, vyakta or sprout form are avidyAkruta...if

the avidyA (nAma rUpa) has eternal existence in brahman then it force us to

conclude that brahman has always avidyA lEsha in it!!

 

KS prabhuji:

 

I am in the process of 'retiring' at the end of this year and returning

by Jan-Feb time to India. Hope we will have a chance to meet in

Bangalore some time during my stay in India.

 

bhaskar :

 

Thats very nice to hear prabhuji. I'll be eagerly awaiting to meet you in

person.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda